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Political Roundtable - Part VII

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1861 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:36 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I don't understand why it's impossible for you guys to admit that climate change is a thing. It is. Believing the world negotiations on carbon emissions aren't going anywhere does not actually require you to close your mind to science.


I didn't say I don't think there is climate change. I do (not sure about Nate).

What I do think is that it has become politicized to the point that it is now about wealth transfer and other bad policy.

What I think hasn't happened is the cost benefit analysis of global warming to poverty reduction. Lives lost from global warming to lives lost to poverty.

IMO, the science has been coopted for political purposes and not to our (US) or the worlds benefit.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1862 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:57 pm

nate33 wrote:The end result is that the U.S. will curtail it's carbon use while the rest of the world does not, giving us a competitive disadvantage.


Whoever figures out how to effectively and successfully curtail carbon emissions isn't going to be at a competitive disadvantage. Seems to me that those driving new technologies for more efficient fuels are going to be at a rather significant competitive advantage if/when it happens. The only ones who will be at a competitive disadvantage will be those tied to industries reliant on the use of fossil fuels, and even there only some of them since if there is less use of fossil fuels for energy, in theory there should be less demand and therefore a lower price (in theory) for other areas that might still need them.

I know it's a whole lot more complicated than that, but in general, I do find it hard to believe that a country that succeeds in finding ways to curtail its carbon emissions would ever find itself at a competitive disadvantage. Where a change in the nature of who has what competitive advantage comes about if the whole carbon issue becomes politicized for financial reasons where everyone argues for something that will benefit them in the short term.

You're actually right that fossil fuels were absolutely huge for humanity and vital to life as we know it. The point here is that we need to start looking at other ways of continuing and even improving upon life as we know it. It wouldn't have made sense to have stuck with wood fires because we didn't know what fossil fuels could do. This is clearly going to take investment and development of technology, but politics and big money (which usually tend to go hand in hand) are already highly centralized in fossil fuels.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1863 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 8:05 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:The end result is that the U.S. will curtail it's carbon use while the rest of the world does not, giving us a competitive disadvantage.


Whoever figures out how to effectively and successfully curtail carbon emissions isn't going to be at a competitive disadvantage. Seems to me that those driving new technologies for more efficient fuels are going to be at a rather significant competitive advantage if/when it happens. The only ones who will be at a competitive disadvantage will be those tied to industries reliant on the use of fossil fuels, and even there only some of them since if there is less use of fossil fuels for energy, in theory there should be less demand and therefore a lower price (in theory) for other areas that might still need them.

I know it's a whole lot more complicated than that, but in general, I do find it hard to believe that a country that succeeds in finding ways to curtail its carbon emissions would ever find itself at a competitive disadvantage. Where a change in the nature of who has what competitive advantage comes about if the whole carbon issue becomes politicized for financial reasons where everyone argues for something that will benefit them in the short term.

You're actually right that fossil fuels were absolutely huge for humanity and vital to life as we know it. The point here is that we need to start looking at other ways of continuing and even improving upon life as we know it. It wouldn't have made sense to have stuck with wood fires because we didn't know what fossil fuels could do. This is clearly going to take investment and development of technology, but politics and big money (which usually tend to go hand in hand) are already highly centralized in fossil fuels.

I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.

In general, when governments assume they're smarter than the free market, malinvestment and other bad things tend to happen.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1864 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 8:09 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:I don't understand why it's impossible for you guys to admit that climate change is a thing. It is. Believing the world negotiations on carbon emissions aren't going anywhere does not actually require you to close your mind to science.


I didn't say I don't think there is climate change. I do (not sure about Nate).

What I do think is that it has become politicized to the point that it is now about wealth transfer and other bad policy.

What I think hasn't happened is the cost benefit analysis of global warming to poverty reduction. Lives lost from global warming to lives lost to poverty.

IMO, the science has been coopted for political purposes and not to our (US) or the worlds benefit.

I think there has been mild global warming over the past century, which is a great deal different than catastrophic global warming. I fail to see any evidence that indicates that the expenditures to avert mild global warming (if it can be averted at all) are anywhere close to worth the benefits. I'm not even convinced that there are any net benefits to averting mild global warming. Mild global warming might be a good thing.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1865 » by dobrojim » Tue Dec 1, 2015 8:56 pm

I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.


I agree with sentence 1. Disagree with sentence 2. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rock.
The oil age won't end because oil became too scarce. The free market is already moving away from
huge centralized non-renewable power generation. It's too financially risky with the long lead times
between commitment to build and actual generation. Capital markets don't like that kind of risk.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1866 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Dec 1, 2015 9:26 pm

nate33 wrote:I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.

In general, when governments assume they're smarter than the free market, malinvestment and other bad things tend to happen.


I don't see the need for a coercive policy, necessarily, but I do see the need for action sometimes. The idea that governments should be more like the free markets is a dangerous game unless you're willing to see a high degree of government bankruptcies, which happen all the time in the free market. I think it takes a bit of both, and free markets can be a dangerous game when you're dealing with large scale catastrophes. So not a coercive policy, no, but gentle guidance, definitely, and encouragement for development of technologies in renewable resources.

As far as a large scale catastrophe, I tend to think that risk is way overstated, but simply because the real subtle changes that result from man-made climate change aren't appreciated nor even understood, so on one hand, you have a side arguing that there is nothing to fear, and on the other there are those arguing that there is something to fear and it's an immediate and catastrophic threat and the sanity gets drowned out in between. Growing desertification, wildfires, insurance claims - that's the kind of stuff North America is going to see. And insurance companies definitely aren't treating climate change as though it isn't happening and won't get worse if something isn't done.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1867 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 9:28 pm

dobrojim wrote:
I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.


I agree with sentence 1. Disagree with sentence 2. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rock.
The oil age won't end because oil became too scarce. The free market is already moving away from
huge centralized non-renewable power generation. It's too financially risky with the long lead times
between commitment to build and actual generation. Capital markets don't like that kind of risk.

False analogy. The stone age indeed did not end because we ran out of rock, but it damn well would have ended if we ran out of rock.

A better analogy is Britain just prior to the Industrial Revolution. Deforestation had diminished their supply of wood for fuel, at which point they discovered that coal could be a vastly superior source of energy. The rest is history.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1868 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 9:38 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.

In general, when governments assume they're smarter than the free market, malinvestment and other bad things tend to happen.


I don't see the need for a coercive policy, necessarily, but I do see the need for action sometimes. The idea that governments should be more like the free markets is a dangerous game unless you're willing to see a high degree of government bankruptcies, which happen all the time in the free market. I think it takes a bit of both, and free markets can be a dangerous game when you're dealing with large scale catastrophes. So not a coercive policy, no, but gentle guidance, definitely, and encouragement for development of technologies in renewable resources.

As far as a large scale catastrophe, I tend to think that risk is way overstated, but simply because the real subtle changes that result from man-made climate change aren't appreciated nor even understood, so on one hand, you have a side arguing that there is nothing to fear, and on the other there are those arguing that there is something to fear and it's an immediate and catastrophic threat and the sanity gets drowned out in between. Growing desertification, wildfires, insurance claims - that's the kind of stuff North America is going to see. And insurance companies definitely aren't treating climate change as though it isn't happening and won't get worse if something isn't done.

At least you agree with me that the notion of catastrophe is overstated.

In a worst-case scenario, oceans rise at a rate nearing the higher end of the estimates - or roughly 8-10 inches in the next 100 years. On coastal cities, what was once considered a 100-year flood plain and suitable for new construction will be reclassified as a 50-year flood plain or a 25-year flood plain. Where coastal construction was contemplated, site evaluations will conclude that they should be sited further inland. Existing coastal construction will, very gradually and within the normal life cycle of the building, migrate inland. A decision to renovate an existing, aging coastal structure may be re-evaluated based on a long term cost/benefit analysis. Instead of renovation, relocation will be the choice.

This does not seem like a huge burden to me. Global warming is presented to people as if a tidal wave will come and sweep Florida off the map. It's preposterous.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1869 » by dobrojim » Wed Dec 2, 2015 2:29 pm

nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:
I see no need for a coercive, government driven policy to force Americans to use less fossil fuel. The free market will take care of it. As fossil fuel becomes more scarce, the price will go up, making alternative energy more attractive.


I agree with sentence 1. Disagree with sentence 2. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rock.
The oil age won't end because oil became too scarce. The free market is already moving away from
huge centralized non-renewable power generation. It's too financially risky with the long lead times
between commitment to build and actual generation. Capital markets don't like that kind of risk.

False analogy. The stone age indeed did not end because we ran out of rock, but it damn well would have ended if we ran out of rock.

A better analogy is Britain just prior to the Industrial Revolution. Deforestation had diminished their supply of wood for fuel, at which point they discovered that coal could be a vastly superior source of energy. The rest is history.


None so blind....

The oil age will end because we have discovered vastly superior sources of energy.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1870 » by dckingsfan » Wed Dec 2, 2015 2:38 pm

dobrojim wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:
I agree with sentence 1. Disagree with sentence 2. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rock.
The oil age won't end because oil became too scarce. The free market is already moving away from
huge centralized non-renewable power generation. It's too financially risky with the long lead times
between commitment to build and actual generation. Capital markets don't like that kind of risk.

False analogy. The stone age indeed did not end because we ran out of rock, but it damn well would have ended if we ran out of rock.

A better analogy is Britain just prior to the Industrial Revolution. Deforestation had diminished their supply of wood for fuel, at which point they discovered that coal could be a vastly superior source of energy. The rest is history.


None so blind....

The oil age will end because we have discovered vastly superior sources of energy.


Guess you and Nate are in violent agreement :)
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1871 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:19 pm

I agree that the solution to climate change is high prices for fossil fuels. The problem with the free market solution is that no one emitter internalizes the global costs of one ton's worth of carbon emissions. If we could sue each emitter for all the damage done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem - yes you are probably tired of me citing the Coase Theorem over and over again but it is a fundamental idea of modern economics) then the price would reflect its scarcity plus a premium for all the damage it does.

However, the costs associated with that transaction are too high and as a result the price of fossil fuels will always be "too low," in the sense that the private cost of burning fossil fuels will always be lower than the social cost.

You may have noticed that recently when gasoline prices were very high, a number of alternate sources of fossil fuel appeared. Also, people started buying fuel efficient cars - Priuses and Volts and so on suddenly became very popular. The political opposition to alternate fuels like corn-based or cellose-based ethanol start to go down as well - that's why we have the Renewable Fuels Standard now (which EPA completely eviscerated unfortunately so it has no binding effect except to force us to use corn-based ethanol, which has the same carbon emissions as gasoline and is basically a subsidy to corn and soybean producers, grrrrr don't get me started).

The solution to climate change is for the cost of fossil fuels to go up enough that we have an incentive to develop the alternatives that are just a little bit out of reach, commercially, because fossil fuels are so much cheaper (coal in particular is preposterously cheap in the U.S. given the damage it does to the environment, although we've developed some technologies over the past few decades that help a lot). But those prices will always be lower than they should be because of the gap between the private and social cost of consuming fossil fuels. The answer is to impose either a cap and trade system (which puts a cap on the amount of emissions we are allowed to produce and allows the price to vary enough to meet that cap) or a carbon tax (which provides more certainty about the premium alternative fuel sources will earn).

The problem is it's impossible to enforce a cap and trade system internationally, so the only thing that would really work is to ask everybody to impose a carbon tax. But if everybody imposes a carbon tax the developing countries don't get a handout, so no one is even considering a carbon tax in the current talks, I would wager. That plus we only have a vague idea of what the emissions cap/carbon tax should be, and given the billions of dollars at stake it would be better to have a more precise idea, which we probably can't get without another 30 years or so worth of data.

I don't know if climate change is going to be catastrophic. It's going to impact some countries more than others - the United States will be more or less fine - we're wealthy enough to withstand more extreme weather events and our agricultural production will probably actually increase, unless the ecosystem collapses for some strange reason (see colony collapse disorder - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder). But other countries like Indonesia with lots of shanty towns that will just get decimated by violent weather, are extremely dependent on subsistence agriculture that will likely be severely impacted, are going to suffer a lot more than we will. It might not be the end of the world but it will be pretty bad and it is mostly our fault (in the sense that the United States is the Saudi Arabia of coal and we've emitted more carbon than anybody else over the last century).

Yes, the temperature change up until now has been very small, barely statistically detectable. The issue is what happens when that temperature change becomes more significant, which our scientific community says is pretty likely.

I did a back of the envelope calculation once of how much it would cost us to restrict our emissions using current technologies to the targets Obama set and it came out to about $150 billion a year, so it would cost us 1% of GDP *annually*. That's an enormous, enormous cost. The hope is that, in response to this cost, the private sector will come up with some alternatives to lower the impact on us. But I admit we would be making some pretty big sacrifices, although as I mentioned earlier we are already imposing the emissions restrictions because of the Supreme Court's decision that carbon emissions must be treated as a criteria pollutant (http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/urbanair/ - "EPA calls these pollutants "criteria" air pollutants because it regulates them by developing human health-based and/or environmentally-based criteria (science-based guidelines) for setting permissible levels."). So the CAFE fuel economy standards and the coal-fired power generation standards are already set at levels intended to reduce carbon emission levels based on the targets set by the Administration (which were in turn partially informed by an interagency panel of "scientists," although there was a lot of political pressure brought to bear).

I mean yeah. I was on the interagency panel calculating the "social cost of carbon" for purposes of cost benefit analysis of rules that would reduce carbon emissions and it was political. But the politics was mostly in how to present and interpret the scientific findings. It was kind of like a peer review, except one of the peer reviewers was Congress that put a political prism on how we needed to present things.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1872 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:44 pm

Great post, Zonk!

And with oil prices being driven down for a number of geopolitical reasons internationally, it makes it a lot tougher to look at developing alternatives. There are so many reasons why various parties might want oil prices kept low at this stage that it's tough to figure out who's doing what and why. So while the idea to not politicize the development of alternatives to fossil fuels makes sense, the problem is that fossil fuels are so highly politicized at this point that it makes what would already be an uphill battle that much harder. It's really Europe, with a higher population density, more fragile economy, and fewer fossil fuels forcing them to rely on unreliable sources such as the middle east, Africa or Russia, that has the most incentive to push for international changes here.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1873 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 2, 2015 3:51 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I agree that the solution to climate change is high prices for fossil fuels. The problem with the free market solution is that no one emitter internalizes the global costs of one ton's worth of carbon emissions. If we could sue each emitter for all the damage done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem - yes you are probably tired of me citing the Coase Theorem over and over again but it is a fundamental idea of modern economics) then the price would reflect its scarcity plus a premium for all the damage it does.

However, the costs associated with that transaction are too high and as a result the price of fossil fuels will always be "too low," in the sense that the private cost of burning fossil fuels will always be lower than the social cost.

You may have noticed that recently when gasoline prices were very high, a number of alternate sources of fossil fuel appeared. Also, people started buying fuel efficient cars - Priuses and Volts and so on suddenly became very popular. The political opposition to alternate fuels like corn-based or cellose-based ethanol start to go down as well - that's why we have the Renewable Fuels Standard now (which EPA completely eviscerated unfortunately so it has no binding effect except to force us to use corn-based ethanol, which has the same carbon emissions as gasoline and is basically a subsidy to corn and soybean producers, grrrrr don't get me started).

The solution to climate change is for the cost of fossil fuels to go up enough that we have an incentive to develop the alternatives that are just a little bit out of reach, commercially, because fossil fuels are so much cheaper (coal in particular is preposterously cheap in the U.S. given the damage it does to the environment, although we've developed some technologies over the past few decades that help a lot). But those prices will always be lower than they should be because of the gap between the private and social cost of consuming fossil fuels. The answer is to impose either a cap and trade system (which puts a cap on the amount of emissions we are allowed to produce and allows the price to vary enough to meet that cap) or a carbon tax (which provides more certainty about the premium alternative fuel sources will earn).

The problem is it's impossible to enforce a cap and trade system internationally, so the only thing that would really work is to ask everybody to impose a carbon tax. But if everybody imposes a carbon tax the developing countries don't get a handout, so no one is even considering a carbon tax in the current talks, I would wager. That plus we only have a vague idea of what the emissions cap/carbon tax should be, and given the billions of dollars at stake it would be better to have a more precise idea, which we probably can't get without another 30 years or so worth of data.

I don't know if climate change is going to be catastrophic. It's going to impact some countries more than others - the United States will be more or less fine - we're wealthy enough to withstand more extreme weather events and our agricultural production will probably actually increase, unless the ecosystem collapses for some strange reason (see colony collapse disorder - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder). But other countries like Indonesia with lots of shanty towns that will just get decimated by violent weather, are extremely dependent on subsistence agriculture that will likely be severely impacted, are going to suffer a lot more than we will. It might not be the end of the world but it will be pretty bad and it is mostly our fault (in the sense that the United States is the Saudi Arabia of coal and we've emitted more carbon than anybody else over the last century).

Yes, the temperature change up until now has been very small, barely statistically detectable. The issue is what happens when that temperature change becomes more significant, which our scientific community says is pretty likely.

I did a back of the envelope calculation once of how much it would cost us to restrict our emissions using current technologies to the targets Obama set and it came out to about $150 billion a year, so it would cost us 1% of GDP *annually*. That's an enormous, enormous cost. The hope is that, in response to this cost, the private sector will come up with some alternatives to lower the impact on us. But I admit we would be making some pretty big sacrifices, although as I mentioned earlier we are already imposing the emissions restrictions because of the Supreme Court's decision that carbon emissions must be treated as a criteria pollutant (http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/urbanair/ - "EPA calls these pollutants "criteria" air pollutants because it regulates them by developing human health-based and/or environmentally-based criteria (science-based guidelines) for setting permissible levels."). So the CAFE fuel economy standards and the coal-fired power generation standards are already set at levels intended to reduce carbon emission levels based on the targets set by the Administration (which were in turn partially informed by an interagency panel of "scientists," although there was a lot of political pressure brought to bear).

I mean yeah. I was on the interagency panel calculating the "social cost of carbon" for purposes of cost benefit analysis of rules that would reduce carbon emissions and it was political. But the politics was mostly in how to present and interpret the scientific findings. It was kind of like a peer review, except one of the peer reviewers was Congress that put a political prism on how we needed to present things.

I agree that higher costs of fossil fuels will drive the transition to renewable fuels, and the easiest, fairest way to make it happen is to tax fossil fuels at a greater rate. I just disagree with the notion that fossil fuels are currently inflicting a dramatic social cost to the rest of the world. I don't think the science proves this. Your comments about violent weather are simply false. We have no indication whatsoever that the recent global warming has caused an increase in violent weather. Indeed, the evidence available shows just the opposite. Violent weather has declined and so have droughts.

The only "proof" of violent weather is based on climate models, models that have consistently proven to be false in all of their predictions so far. That's just not enough evidence for me to condone artificially increasing the cost of fossil fuels dramatically - particularly when the plan is to have only us and Europe absorb the cost, while the primary carbon emitters don't have to do anything.

Again, I dispute the notion that the United States is some kind of global criminal in their carbon production. Everyone talks about the United States being the second largest emitter of carbon, but our carbon emissions per square mile of carbon absorbing land ranks quite low. We are a carbon sink.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1874 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:05 pm

Well, Nate, you're not understanding the science. It's not that weather events in the *past* have been significantly more violent, it's that weather events in the future will be. What we've seen evidence of so far is that yes, weather events are becoming, in a statistically detectable sense, more violent (e.g., the increased frequency and energy of hurricanes and such). If the trend in increased violence follows the projections, then things will get pretty bad for certain vulnerable countries in the next fifty years or so. Not us.

No climate change model has been "proven" true or false yet. There is not enough data to do either.

The United States is not a criminal but we are the Saudi Arabia of coal and we burn it more than any other country except China. It doesn't matter how much of a carbon sink we are - we are the same sink we were 100 years ago. What's changed is that we are now burning a crap ton of coal because it's super cheap for us. It's not criminal, it's just the facts.

As your high priest of capitalism I encourage you to not be so defensive about it. Don't take it personally. The fact is, we are the economic powerhouse of the world and trimming 1% of GDP off our growth rate forever will hurt everyone in the world almost as much as climate change will, so we need to think about how we are approaching this problem with the tradeoffs in mind.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1875 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:08 pm

Well, ok, as to your point about increasingly violent storms:

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes

NOAA confirms my other statement, there's not enough evidence to say anything either way yet.

"Finally, one can ask whether the change in Category 4-5 hurricanes projected by our model is already detectable in the Atlantic hurricane records. Owing to the large interannual to decadal variability of SST and hurricane activity in the basin, Bender et al (2010) estimate that detection of this projected anthropogenic influence on hurricanes should not be expected for a number of decades."

I have this problem in my own studies of agricultural productivity. Weather variation is really high so to detect a statistically significant improvement in response to some aid project you need several decades of data. Not very practical.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1876 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:21 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Well, ok, as to your point about increasingly violent storms:

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes

NOAA confirms my other statement, there's not enough evidence to say anything either way yet.

"Finally, one can ask whether the change in Category 4-5 hurricanes projected by our model is already detectable in the Atlantic hurricane records. Owing to the large interannual to decadal variability of SST and hurricane activity in the basin, Bender et al (2010) estimate that detection of this projected anthropogenic influence on hurricanes should not be expected for a number of decades."

I have this problem in my own studies of agricultural productivity. Weather variation is really high so to detect a statistically significant improvement in response to some aid project you need several decades of data. Not very practical.

Thanks for your honesty.

I'll also point out that it's no doubt likely that some regions are likely to sustain more damage due to climate change, but the unseen issue is that other areas will bear less damage. Why should the United States pay a fortune for what might ultimately be a wash globally, (or even a net win)? Furthermore, how can we really attribute any damage to man-made climate change rather than natural climate change. The climate is a constantly changing entity. It changed continually throughout pre-history and in recorded history prior to the industrial revolution.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1877 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:22 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:Great post, Zonk!

And with oil prices being driven down for a number of geopolitical reasons internationally, it makes it a lot tougher to look at developing alternatives. There are so many reasons why various parties might want oil prices kept low at this stage that it's tough to figure out who's doing what and why. So while the idea to not politicize the development of alternatives to fossil fuels makes sense, the problem is that fossil fuels are so highly politicized at this point that it makes what would already be an uphill battle that much harder. It's really Europe, with a higher population density, more fragile economy, and fewer fossil fuels forcing them to rely on unreliable sources such as the middle east, Africa or Russia, that has the most incentive to push for international changes here.


Europe doesn't really. For historical reasons they have very high gasoline taxes and so their vehicle emissions are very low. Also Europe is not endowed with a lot of coal so their electricity comes mainly from hydro and nuclear. So Europe is really not a big carbon emitter.

It's mostly the US, because we were endowed with a huge reserve of coal, and China, and to a lesser extent India. Also Brazil because they are cutting down their rainforest at an alarming rate, severely reducing the world's ability to absorb CO2.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1878 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:25 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Well, ok, as to your point about increasingly violent storms:

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes

NOAA confirms my other statement, there's not enough evidence to say anything either way yet.

"Finally, one can ask whether the change in Category 4-5 hurricanes projected by our model is already detectable in the Atlantic hurricane records. Owing to the large interannual to decadal variability of SST and hurricane activity in the basin, Bender et al (2010) estimate that detection of this projected anthropogenic influence on hurricanes should not be expected for a number of decades."

I have this problem in my own studies of agricultural productivity. Weather variation is really high so to detect a statistically significant improvement in response to some aid project you need several decades of data. Not very practical.

Thanks for your honesty.

I'll also point out that it's no doubt likely that some regions are likely to sustain more damage due to climate change, but the unseen issue is that other areas will bear less damage. Why should the United States pay a fortune for what might ultimately be a wash globally, (or even a net win)? Furthermore, how can we really attribute any damage to man-made climate change rather than natural climate change. The climate is a constantly changing entity. It changed continually throughout pre-history and in recorded history prior to the industrial revolution.


It's interesting that you bring that up because the costs of climate change in the conventional models come mainly from increased expenditures on air conditioning in the US. To get the really high costs of climate change you have to assume some possibility of complete ecological catastrophe which has, hm what's a nice way of saying this? Zero evidence whatsoever?

To me the biggest cost to climate change not accounted for in the current models is going to be the mass extinctions of sea creatures. I don't know how to put a price tag on that but it will, at the very least, be very sad.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1879 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:35 pm

My main objection to the climate change models is that they depend crucially on assumptions about economic growth. Assuming worldwide economic growth of 2-3% over the next 100 years is pure fantasy. We have no idea what economic growth will be 10 years from now, much less 100 years from now. Furthermore, throw in a worldwide recession like that of 2009 into the sim and the results are completely different.

So to summarize my position: Yes, I believe climate change is happening. Yes, I believe there will be adverse consequences for certain poor countries and that is sad. Yes, I believe there will be ecological consequences, probably most noticeable in sea-faring species, and that will be super sad.

What will be the economic consequences of climate change, how much of that are we responsible for vs. China, India, Brasil, and would the world really be better off if we bear a huge share of the burden of reducing carbon emissions? I don't know.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1880 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Dec 2, 2015 4:45 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Europe doesn't really. For historical reasons they have very high gasoline taxes and so their vehicle emissions are very low. Also Europe is not endowed with a lot of coal so their electricity comes mainly from hydro and nuclear. So Europe is really not a big carbon emitter.

It's mostly the US, because we were endowed with a huge reserve of coal, and China, and to a lesser extent India. Also Brazil because they are cutting down their rainforest at an alarming rate, severely reducing the world's ability to absorb CO2.


True. My point wasn't that Europe was a big carbon emitter relative other industrialized nations, but that they had more incentive to want to see carbon emission's cut and alternatives found than the bigger carbon emitters. Same goes for Japan, honestly. It's pretty obvious that countries like Canada, Brazil, the US, China, India, etc. that are driving the oil economy. All it takes is for Germany or Japan to come up with a more sustainable and less socially damaging source of energy and all the big oil producers are suddenly at a huge competitive disadvantage.
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