Problem with Pacers/NBA Popularity

[ThirtyOne]

So I saw a post on the other forum questioning why the Pacers arent as popular among Indiana fans. I tend to agree that while this is a basketball state, the Pacers take a backseat to the colts. It also seems that college and high school basketball are taken more seriously than the NBA.

Ive seen a few different theories on this, but my stance is that it all falls around the tv deals. When I grew up, Pacers games were always free on channel 29. I also remember seeing much more games on the big stations (ABC, NBC) and especially the playoffs were always broadcast on basic tv.

During the shift from basic tv to cable (TNT, Fox Sports Indiana) it seems that the NBA lost a lot of casual fans because access to the games was much harder. I remember during the O'Brien era it was almost impossible to see the Pacers on TV out at a bar or anywhere. I know that we sucked, but whenever id ask a place to put them on in Bloomington, they looked at me dumbfounded. Nobody ever knew what freakin channel theyd be on.

Anyways, this might be a long ramble but im interested to see other peoples thoughts. I grew up in rural indiana so my perspective may be different. A lot of the people i grew up around still dont pay for cable...which means that they can watch the colts/nfl every sunday but never the Pacers.

[Jake0890]

High school basketball is certainly not, and never has been, as popular as the Pacers.

But with an 82 game season, it's hard to hold interest for that long. College basketball and the NFL are absolutely more popular in Indy, though.

[basketballwacko2]

I can't watch HS basketball it's too sloppy, same for the WNBA. I use to love College BB but now I rearly watch a game. The NBA is the game as far as I'm concerned.

[Scoot McGroot]

High school basketball is certainly not, and never has been, as popular as the Pacers.

You're a young'un, because it most certainly was, for a VERY long time. The ABA Pacers found fans partially because they drafted so many Indiana High School legends. Guys like Billy Keller and George McGinnis were huge stars in Indiana long before they were Pacers, back when they were winning state championships for George Washington High School. High School games drew numbers in the thousands every single game. Heck, 9 of the 10 largest high school basketball arenas are in the state of Indiana. Places like "The Wigwam" in Anderson would load up almost 10,000 people for every single home game. That was back when the Pacers were holding telethons to try and sell enough tickets to stay in business.

Some of it may have to do with the fact that ThirtyOne mentioned above of Pacers games shifting from local free TV to paid cable right around the same time that the Colts drafted a guy named Peyton Manning and football took off in popularity in Indiana like never before seen. Maybe it has something to do with the ending of one class high school basketball. Maybe the loss of old school guys like Gene Keady and Bob Knight hurt the popularity of basketball in Indiana. It's something of all of them.

Either way. I miss the old days of towns completely shutting down on Friday at 5pm so everyone could get some dinner and go to the local high school game. Walking into a high school arena that was jam packed to the gills, the pep band blaring, and thousands of people screaming their lungs out was awesome. Some of my favorite memories growing up. It's not the same anymore. Though, it's still more of a religion in Indiana than it is in Ohio, where I live now. Ohio HS games are lucky to get a couple hundred at big games, and more than just the families at smaller games.

[JohnnyNightrain]

This is an interesting topic.

I worked my down to Indy from NW Indiana/Chicago Land and I was pretty surprised at the lack of overall passion for pro ball here. First of all, since we are talking Indiana as a whole, the entire northern part of the state, especially the NW part, is strictly Bulls fans. Of course, growing up in the 90s might give me a warped sense of reality, but in a high school of roughly 2,600 I'm not sure if I ever knew more than one Pacers fan. It would be virtually impossible from the team to gain any kind of market share there.

Then, I went to college at Purdue, which is almost halfway between Indy and Chicago and it was more split. West Lafayette/Lafayette is the Pacers market, so all of the games were broadcast. Still, there were a lot of Bulls fans.

Finally, I moved here three years ago and, obviously, it's a Pacers city. Even though there are Pacers fans here, it just doesn't "feel" like it does back home with the Bulls. When the Pacers were winning, it was exciting, but when George was injured last year, no one cared. The games were pretty empty in comparison to the previous years and my Facebook feed, which was rife with Pacers talk, was all-of-the-sudden dead last year. So, it's been interesting just to view the different amounts of passion, in the two areas. I went back home a week ago and went out to a pizza place and all of the servers were wearing Jimmy Butler jerseys. I just don't see that kinda thing around here.

All of that aside, I think the issues are fairly straightforward. Pacers are a small market team with no championships and have not had a legit superstar. Don't get me wrong, I love Reggie as a player, and he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but he's not Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Magic, James, Durant, etc. I don't think people really recognize ABA titles, either. I do think no NBA titles makes a difference. There are no glory years to re-live. Hell, delusional Bears fans still think it's 1985 and that goes along way.

Also, the whole Detroit thing is still a pretty big black eye for the organization. The team also hasn't been free of troublemakers in the last decade, either.

Finally, and this just personal opinion, I have always found the Pacers uniforms to be a bit ugly. There isn't a lot of mass appeal there. Teams like the Celtics and Knicks just have universal appeal in there image. Indiana doesn't. Again, that's just a personal opinion. I could be way off.

I think the question is: What can a team like Indiana do to match the passion displayed by other small market teams like OKC and Portland?

Anyway, interesting topic. I've been fascinated by this issue coming from a completely different perspective.

[Wizop]

Scoot is right. There was a time when high school basketball was huge. Everyone in small town Indiana went to the local game every Friday. There were 16 teams in the Hinkle sectional back before school consolidation. I used to buy Shortridge season tickets and sell them on the street before every home game (I didn't need a ticket because I was in the pep band) just to be eligible to get sectional tickets which I would sell at a big profit in the Hinkle parking lot. School consolidation began the decline in high school basketball but the Colts coming to town and in particular their success under Peyton started the rise of high school football.

Success matters. MSA was full from about '95 to the brawl. Then the Pacers had issues around the same time the Colts got hot. Today there are still a lot of fans who don't turn their attention to the Pacers until after the Super Bowl. It might happen a bit sooner this year if the Colts make an early exit.

[Scoot McGroot]

All of that aside, I think the issues are fairly straightforward. Pacers are a small market team with no championships...

Uh, we've got 3 of 'em, thank you very much!

[EuroPacer]

I have never been to Indiana (yet, I plan on spending a few weeks in the area to watch as much live basketball as I can once I can afford it, including the Bulls, maybe Bucks and Minny and Indiana Uni and IUPUI - a roadtrip that has been brooded on for years ).

But I can relate this question to the most popular sport both here in England and my native Netherlands: Football.

The success of teams like Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal is predicated on massive amounts of money, tradition and success. But new top club Manchester City does not have that luxury, sure they used to get decent crowds but comparable to my local club Sheffield Wednesday. Yet as soon as they got a new ground and REALLY exciting (expensive) players and challenged for success they all of a sudden started shooting up in attendances. Not because of those reasons, but because they could afford to offer really cheap tickets in a league that is expensive (relative). They grew the crowd by organising huge community events, supporting local schools, hospitals, charities etc. etc. AND advertising. The city of Manchester had been United Red for a long, long time but once the Sheikhs moved in you could see the City Skyblue everywhere.

Based on that information there are a few things that the Indiana Pacers need (even more of): deep pockets for community events - perhaps even forcing a TV deal that shows all games free locally (not sure how the contracts work for that in the NBA), cheaper tickets in a bigger arena (always a limiting factor with basketball - but the man that runs the Kings knows he can capitalise on this by offering all games on screens right outside the stadium, creating buzz and excitement) and, the most difficult, signing really big names.

In an ideal world: you stick Durant on the Pacers, next to Hill (local), George, a good SG (local, Eric Gordon?) and Myles Turner next year and create a real sense that a championship is on the cards and the popularity of the team will grow enormously, probably taking the place of OKC for example.

BUT, and this is a massive but: the Pacers need to look beyond the borders for their future fanbase. If they start emphasising their success abroad (like the Spurs do) then that will lift some of the 'small market' issues that limit it in the context of the USA.

[boomershadow]

I say this, but I really don't want to get into a huge political or societal debate. But here I go anyway.

I think a lot of it is cultural. Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck were both extraordinarily marketable to large amounts of white, working and middle class 25-50 year olds. To such an extent that it became pretty common for members of my family to wear Colts T-shirts or sweaters to the office. And it was seen as normal, as support for a local institution. And that's the demographic that has the cash and time to spend going to games, buying merchandise, spreading the word to those beyond the typical "sports fan." I think the entire sport is regarded as at least a bit more classy than the sport of basketball. I dated a girl earlier in the year that remarked, "I've never heard of people being as into basketball as you are, except like.....rappers." And this wasn't some country girl. She was a relatively cool grad student type. There is the element of race at work, as well, I truly believe.

And it wasn't as bad as this before the brawl. But combine that with us not being very good for a number of years there after, and you get a pretty big hole to dig out of. A couple decent playoff runs here in the last handful of years isn't gonna just change that overnight.

[JohnnyNightrain]

All of that aside, I think the issues are fairly straightforward. Pacers are a small market team with no championships...

Uh, we've got 3 of 'em, thank you very much!

Like I said, no one really cares about ABA titles. I mean, we do, as basketball fans, but the general public does not and that hurts a bit. If you have an NBA titles, you can say you were champions. There's a banner to prove it. Plus, didn't the Pacers win one of those titles during the Lakers 33 game winning streak season?

[Wizop]

If you do a Indiana basketball tour, include Butler. An IU soccer game would be good too.

Small town Indiana high school basketball is not sloppy.

[Jake0890]

High school basketball is certainly not, and never has been, as popular as the Pacers.

You're a young'un, because it most certainly was, for a VERY long time. The ABA Pacers found fans partially because they drafted so many Indiana High School legends. Guys like Billy Keller and George McGinnis were huge stars in Indiana long before they were Pacers, back when they were winning state championships for George Washington High School. High School games drew numbers in the thousands every single game. Heck, 9 of the 10 largest high school basketball arenas are in the state of Indiana. Places like "The Wigwam" in Anderson would load up almost 10,000 people for every single home game. That was back when the Pacers were holding telethons to try and sell enough tickets to stay in business.

Some of it may have to do with the fact that ThirtyOne mentioned above of Pacers games shifting from local free TV to paid cable right around the same time that the Colts drafted a guy named Peyton Manning and football took off in popularity in Indiana like never before seen. Maybe it has something to do with the ending of one class high school basketball. Maybe the loss of old school guys like Gene Keady and Bob Knight hurt the popularity of basketball in Indiana. It's something of all of them.

Either way. I miss the old days of towns completely shutting down on Friday at 5pm so everyone could get some dinner and go to the local high school game. Walking into a high school arena that was jam packed to the gills, the pep band blaring, and thousands of people screaming their lungs out was awesome. Some of my favorite memories growing up. It's not the same anymore. Though, it's still more of a religion in Indiana than it is in Ohio, where I live now. Ohio HS games are lucky to get a couple hundred at big games, and more than just the families at smaller games.

Huh, the more you know.

Certainly has never been like that in my lifetime. The high schools have a hard enough time getting their own students to attend games, much less the general public. Never heard of anyone not a student/relative of one of the players going to a high school game, to be honest.

[Scoot McGroot]

High school basketball is certainly not, and never has been, as popular as the Pacers.

You're a young'un, because it most certainly was, for a VERY long time. The ABA Pacers found fans partially because they drafted so many Indiana High School legends. Guys like Billy Keller and George McGinnis were huge stars in Indiana long before they were Pacers, back when they were winning state championships for George Washington High School. High School games drew numbers in the thousands every single game. Heck, 9 of the 10 largest high school basketball arenas are in the state of Indiana. Places like "The Wigwam" in Anderson would load up almost 10,000 people for every single home game. That was back when the Pacers were holding telethons to try and sell enough tickets to stay in business.

Some of it may have to do with the fact that ThirtyOne mentioned above of Pacers games shifting from local free TV to paid cable right around the same time that the Colts drafted a guy named Peyton Manning and football took off in popularity in Indiana like never before seen. Maybe it has something to do with the ending of one class high school basketball. Maybe the loss of old school guys like Gene Keady and Bob Knight hurt the popularity of basketball in Indiana. It's something of all of them.

Either way. I miss the old days of towns completely shutting down on Friday at 5pm so everyone could get some dinner and go to the local high school game. Walking into a high school arena that was jam packed to the gills, the pep band blaring, and thousands of people screaming their lungs out was awesome. Some of my favorite memories growing up. It's not the same anymore. Though, it's still more of a religion in Indiana than it is in Ohio, where I live now. Ohio HS games are lucky to get a couple hundred at big games, and more than just the families at smaller games.

Huh, the more you know.

Certainly has never been like that in my lifetime. The high schools have a hard enough time getting their own students to attend games, much less the general public. Never heard of anyone not a student/relative of one of the players going to a high school game, to be honest.

You ever see Remember the Titans? How the whole town shuts down at 5 for everyone to go to the football game? Then, everyone eats dinner in town and has coffee and talks about the game after? It was like that not even as far back as the early to mid 90's. Town's shut down for the games.

[8305]

I say this, but I really don't want to get into a huge political or societal debate. But here I go anyway.

I think a lot of it is cultural. Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck were both extraordinarily marketable to large amounts of white, working and middle class 25-50 year olds. To such an extent that it became pretty common for members of my family to wear Colts T-shirts or sweaters to the office. And it was seen as normal, as support for a local institution. And that's the demographic that has the cash and time to spend going to games, buying merchandise, spreading the word to those beyond the typical "sports fan." I think the entire sport is regarded as at least a bit more classy than the sport of basketball. I dated a girl earlier in the year that remarked, "I've never heard of people being as into basketball as you are, except like.....rappers." And this wasn't some country girl. She was a relatively cool grad student type. There is the element of race at work, as well, I truly believe.

And it wasn't as bad as this before the brawl. But combine that with us not being very good for a number of years there after, and you get a pretty big hole to dig out of. A couple decent playoff runs here in the last handful of years isn't gonna just change that overnight.

You may be right about the demographic/race aspect to this. Right or wrong I'd rather look at it another way. Over the period of time the Pacers lost ground to the Colts the face of the franchise comparison was Peyton Manning vs Jermaine O'Neal/Danny Granger. Not a fair fight on any level. Paul George brings an entirely new dimension to that comparison I think.

[EuroPacer]

If you do a Indiana basketball tour, include Butler. An IU soccer game would be good too.

Small town Indiana high school basketball is not sloppy.

Thanks Wiz, adding Butler to the list for sure. I am not sure how to find out about high school basketball, but it might be nice to experience something like that. We had a cracking team as teenagers and on top of that it was full of very popular kids at the local secondary school (not affiliated to the school it works differently in the Netherlands) and all we managed was 20 odd watching, despite promoting it and playing on Saturdays 3PM.

A soccer game I am not too sure on, I see pretty high quality soccer regularly, I might be surprised of course, but usually the amateur game doesn't really do a lot for me.

[Scoot McGroot]

If you do a Indiana basketball tour, include Butler. An IU soccer game would be good too.

Small town Indiana high school basketball is not sloppy.

Thanks Wiz, adding Butler to the list for sure. I am not sure how to find out about high school basketball, but it might be nice to experience something like that. We had a cracking team as teenagers and on top of that it was full of very popular kids at the local secondary school (not affiliated to the school it works differently in the Netherlands) and all we managed was 20 odd watching, despite promoting it and playing on Saturdays 3PM.

A soccer game I am not too sure on, I see pretty high quality soccer regularly, I might be surprised of course, but usually the amateur game doesn't really do a lot for me.

If you love basketball, you just have to see a game at Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler's home stadium). It's as true basketball as it ever gets.

Indiana High School basketball is just awesome, or, at least it was before I moved out of state 7 years ago. Just look for a matchup of top teams if you're ever in town, or ask someone at the hotel you're staying at ahead of time. Any top matchup would be fun.

[ThirtyOne]

If you do a Indiana basketball tour, include Butler. An IU soccer game would be good too.

Small town Indiana high school basketball is not sloppy.

Thanks Wiz, adding Butler to the list for sure. I am not sure how to find out about high school basketball, but it might be nice to experience something like that. We had a cracking team as teenagers and on top of that it was full of very popular kids at the local secondary school (not affiliated to the school it works differently in the Netherlands) and all we managed was 20 odd watching, despite promoting it and playing on Saturdays 3PM.

A soccer game I am not too sure on, I see pretty high quality soccer regularly, I might be surprised of course, but usually the amateur game doesn't really do a lot for me.

If you love basketball, you just have to see a game at Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler's home stadium). It's as true basketball as it ever gets.

Indiana High School basketball is just awesome, or, at least it was before I moved out of state 7 years ago. Just look for a matchup of top teams if you're ever in town, or ask someone at the hotel you're staying at ahead of time. Any top matchup would be fun.

Checking out a top HS matchup in Indiana should definitely be a priority. Last game i saw was at Bloomington South when they had Jordan Hulls/Erikk Fromm. It was an awesome experience.

I know the hs basketball fever has been tamed, but you still wont see many other atmosphers at the high school level outside of indiana. Large gyms are still being packed full on occasion.

[old rem]

Here, Cincinnati area.. Indy is actually the CLOSEST NBA franchise.. but... we SORT OF get Cavs games and the paper treats U Ky, Ohio St, Dayton, Louisville college teams as local.. and does not so much cover NBA. the Pacers don't seem to much consider S Ohio, any of Kentucky. I know GSW pretty much sees ...everything within 100 miles as their turf. The Pacers don't seem to much think about REGIONAL.

[Scoot McGroot]

Here, Cincinnati area.. Indy is actually the CLOSEST NBA franchise.. but... we SORT OF get Cavs games and the paper treats U Ky, Ohio St, Dayton, Louisville college teams as local.. and does not so much cover NBA. the Pacers don't seem to much consider S Ohio, any of Kentucky. I know GSW pretty much sees ...everything within 100 miles as their turf. The Pacers don't seem to much think about REGIONAL.

I'm in Cincy now, too. Whereabouts, roughly, you at?