Pacers vs. Lakers

[pacers33granger]

Damo's rebounding was very bad, but remember he played SF a lot of last year and was on the perimeter. I'd imagine it'd still be very bad, but slightly better if he was defending in the post more often. And it's not like Bud is really helping us in that aspect at all, he's at 6.1 TRB%. Certainly higher than Rudez's 2.5 last year, but still.

Ultimately the thing to me is that Damo is clearly a better shooter and was much more confident in his shot even as a rookie learning the NBA game. Bud is out there solely for his shooting so why not have the better shooter? Last year I was confident that Rudez would hit an open three if he had it. I don't have that confidence in Bud right now.

Damo hurt us in so many other ways that the only reason he had a chance of being on the court was to hit a 3. Otherwise, he leaked points defensively like a sieve.

As for rebounding, the SF position has nothing to do with it. Budinger plays the same SF position that Damo did and is rebounding at orders of magnitude better. In fact, Damo Rudez had one of the lowest rebounding percentages EVER IN NBA history at the SF position, and even overall, for anyone who played over 400 minutes in a season (roughly 5 minutes a night). He only gathered 2.5% of all available rebounds while he was on the court. That's insanely low. One of the lowest percentages of all time. Chase's 6.1% is a massive amount higher (though it doesn't seem like it. Orders of magnitude higher. 6.1% accounts somewhere in the average spot.

You're focusing on the rebounding part, which I agree Damo was horrible at. And yes he was a poor defender as well. But Bud is a poor defender whose numbers look decent right now because of the level of competition he's played against as many of the team's we've played against so far have benches with literally no scoring (Philly, Boston twice, Detroit, Orlando, Miami, Minny, etc.). He misses a bunch of rotations and doesn't have the speed to keep up with most guys either. When someone like Reggie Bullock beats you off the dribble for an open look and misses, it shows up in the stats as a positive for Bud when it shouldn't.

The fact that Bud is almost average at rebounding and Damo is horrid means little imo. Bud is out there solely for shooting and he's been mediocre at it, which I don't expect to improve since it's right in line with his career numbers. And our bench has two elite rebounders in Allen and Hill so rebounding is not a necessity. And we don't know if Damo would have improved on that, especially as he was a rookie learning a totally different style of play. It's a real small sample size, but he's at 5.2% in Minny.

The rest of their numbers are fairly comparable. So when we're looking for shooting out of a guy to stretch the floor, I'd take the guy who shoots it 5% better over the guy who rebounds 3.6% better when all else is similar.

[Scoot McGroot]

Damo's rebounding was very bad, but remember he played SF a lot of last year and was on the perimeter. I'd imagine it'd still be very bad, but slightly better if he was defending in the post more often. And it's not like Bud is really helping us in that aspect at all, he's at 6.1 TRB%. Certainly higher than Rudez's 2.5 last year, but still.

Ultimately the thing to me is that Damo is clearly a better shooter and was much more confident in his shot even as a rookie learning the NBA game. Bud is out there solely for his shooting so why not have the better shooter? Last year I was confident that Rudez would hit an open three if he had it. I don't have that confidence in Bud right now.

Damo hurt us in so many other ways that the only reason he had a chance of being on the court was to hit a 3. Otherwise, he leaked points defensively like a sieve.

As for rebounding, the SF position has nothing to do with it. Budinger plays the same SF position that Damo did and is rebounding at orders of magnitude better. In fact, Damo Rudez had one of the lowest rebounding percentages EVER IN NBA history at the SF position, and even overall, for anyone who played over 400 minutes in a season (roughly 5 minutes a night). He only gathered 2.5% of all available rebounds while he was on the court. That's insanely low. One of the lowest percentages of all time. Chase's 6.1% is a massive amount higher (though it doesn't seem like it. Orders of magnitude higher. 6.1% accounts somewhere in the average spot.

You're focusing on the rebounding part, which I agree Damo was horrible at. And yes he was a poor defender as well. But Bud is a poor defender whose numbers look decent right now because of the level of competition he's played against as many of the team's we've played against so far have benches with literally no scoring (Philly, Boston twice, Detroit, Orlando, Miami, Minny, etc.). He misses a bunch of rotations and doesn't have the speed to keep up with most guys either. When someone like Reggie Bullock beats you off the dribble for an open look and misses, it shows up in the stats as a positive for Bud when it shouldn't.

The fact that Bud is almost average at rebounding and Damo is horrid means little imo. Bud is out there solely for shooting and he's been mediocre at it, which I don't expect to improve since it's right in line with his career numbers. And our bench has two elite rebounders in Allen and Hill so rebounding is not a necessity. And we don't know if Damo would have improved on that, especially as he was a rookie learning a totally different style of play. It's a real small sample size, but he's at 5.2% in Minny.

The rest of their numbers are fairly comparable. So when we're looking for shooting out of a guy to stretch the floor, I'd take the guy who shoots it 5% better over the guy who rebounds 3.6% better when all else is similar.

Bud's not out there solely for shooting though. At least, not according to Vogel and Bird. He's out there to run the court, handle the ball a little, slash to the hoop, and hopefully shoot. There's one thing listed he doesn't do as well as Damo, and 3 that he does do infinitely better, without even addressing defense or rebounding. Keep in mind, Damo's numbers were generally against guys number 7-12 on a roster, while Budinger is generally against guys number 2-7 on a roster.

And I'd probably disagree on the guy that shoots it 5% better over a guy who rebounds 3.6% better. Remember, that 5% better is on 1-2 shots a game. Over the course of a season, that's around 4-6 total shots better on the year, maybe less so, seeing as how Damo may not be able to get on the court for anything but garbage minutes. That rebounding 3.6% better is on all rebounds total. If Damo isn't given a green light to shoot, and isn't playing minutes, he can't shoot better, and if he isn't given a green light, he's only detracting in every other avenue of the game. To play for Vogel, you have to try to play defense, rebound, and get up the court. Damo just doesn't fit any of those 3. We talk about wanting rebounding, defense, and shooting at all 5 positions. Damo gives you shooting. He hurts you in every other avenue. I just don't know that Damo would be getting any minutes this year, or if he'd only be a human victory cigar to fill out garbage minutes at the end of games.

[pacers33granger]

Damo hurt us in so many other ways that the only reason he had a chance of being on the court was to hit a 3. Otherwise, he leaked points defensively like a sieve.

As for rebounding, the SF position has nothing to do with it. Budinger plays the same SF position that Damo did and is rebounding at orders of magnitude better. In fact, Damo Rudez had one of the lowest rebounding percentages EVER IN NBA history at the SF position, and even overall, for anyone who played over 400 minutes in a season (roughly 5 minutes a night). He only gathered 2.5% of all available rebounds while he was on the court. That's insanely low. One of the lowest percentages of all time. Chase's 6.1% is a massive amount higher (though it doesn't seem like it. Orders of magnitude higher. 6.1% accounts somewhere in the average spot.

You're focusing on the rebounding part, which I agree Damo was horrible at. And yes he was a poor defender as well. But Bud is a poor defender whose numbers look decent right now because of the level of competition he's played against as many of the team's we've played against so far have benches with literally no scoring (Philly, Boston twice, Detroit, Orlando, Miami, Minny, etc.). He misses a bunch of rotations and doesn't have the speed to keep up with most guys either. When someone like Reggie Bullock beats you off the dribble for an open look and misses, it shows up in the stats as a positive for Bud when it shouldn't.

The fact that Bud is almost average at rebounding and Damo is horrid means little imo. Bud is out there solely for shooting and he's been mediocre at it, which I don't expect to improve since it's right in line with his career numbers. And our bench has two elite rebounders in Allen and Hill so rebounding is not a necessity. And we don't know if Damo would have improved on that, especially as he was a rookie learning a totally different style of play. It's a real small sample size, but he's at 5.2% in Minny.

The rest of their numbers are fairly comparable. So when we're looking for shooting out of a guy to stretch the floor, I'd take the guy who shoots it 5% better over the guy who rebounds 3.6% better when all else is similar.

Bud's not out there solely for shooting though. At least, not according to Vogel and Bird. He's out there to run the court, handle the ball a little, slash to the hoop, and hopefully shoot. There's one thing listed he doesn't do as well as Damo, and 3 that he does do infinitely better, without even addressing defense or rebounding. Keep in mind, Damo's numbers were generally against guys number 7-12 on a roster, while Budinger is generally against guys number 2-7 on a roster.

And I'd probably disagree on the guy that shoots it 5% better over a guy who rebounds 3.6% better. Remember, that 5% better is on 1-2 shots a game. Over the course of a season, that's around 4-6 total shots better on the year, maybe less so, seeing as how Damo may not be able to get on the court for anything but garbage minutes. That rebounding 3.6% better is on all rebounds total. If Damo isn't given a green light to shoot, and isn't playing minutes, he can't shoot better, and if he isn't given a green light, he's only detracting in every other avenue of the game. To play for Vogel, you have to try to play defense, rebound, and get up the court. Damo just doesn't fit any of those 3. We talk about wanting rebounding, defense, and shooting at all 5 positions. Damo gives you shooting. He hurts you in every other avenue. I just don't know that Damo would be getting any minutes this year, or if he'd only be a human victory cigar to fill out garbage minutes at the end of games.

Bud may be out there because the staff wants him to do those things, but I haven't seen him do any of them at even an average level. I've seen your stereotypical player who is athletic so it's assumed he will do well at things like that, but he doesn't. I've seen him be tentative running the floor and run into our guys on offense while slashing numerous times. We just have enough bailout guys on offense to cover for things like that when they're hot and they have been. Maybe he's like that because of uncertainty with his injury, I'm not sure. But the fact that his numbers with us are so close to his career numbers lead me to believe this is just the player he will always be.

I wouldn't expect Damo to get any minutes this year either. But I don't think Bud deserves more than garbage minutes right now and is getting them primarily because he's a "vet." I just don't see those skills in his play, despite the ability being there.

[basketballwacko2]

Bud has not been too impressive, thats for sure. Id like to think hes actually a better ballplayer than what hes shown so far...maybe needs more time to get comfortable with the team. Seems like hes thinking too much.

I honestly believe that Rudez gave us more last year as a rookie than Bud has so far. He shot better last year than Bud ever has and it's not like it's a small sample as he played over 1000 minutes. Yeah Rudez sucked at rebounding, but so does Bud and we have more than enough guys to cover that on this team.

And I don't believe Bud is better than this. His current numbers are right in line with his career averages. Nor do I believe he "makes the right play" as some announcers have been saying (which is sometimes code for "we don't know why this guy is on the floor"). Vogel just needs to give his minutes to GRIII.

Damo hit 3's, but it's disingenuous to say that he gave us more than Chase does. Damo wasn't just a bad rebounder: he was a historically bad rebounder. Also, the surprising thing is that our team defense is statistically better with Chase on the court than without. We give up almost 4 less points per 100 possessions when Chase is on defense. Last year, we were almost 2 points per 100 possessions worse offensively and defensively when Damo was on the court. IF Chase's shot comes around, we're infinitely better off. Even if it doesn't, we're still well better off with Chase than Damo. Chase isn't the answer to anything, but right now, he's likely less of a problem. When compared to Damo, it's a simple answer. Chase is better. Easily. When compared to the other possibilities on our roster like GR3, Stuckey, etc? Well, that's a better discussion.

Yeah moving Damo for Bud was not a bad deal, no rebounding and no Defense from Damo, I can't imagine him playing 4 for any team outside of the WNBA. Also getting rid of Copeland made us better this year, he's a shooter and that's it you can't be a good team with those 2 on your team.

[Scoot McGroot]

You're focusing on the rebounding part, which I agree Damo was horrible at. And yes he was a poor defender as well. But Bud is a poor defender whose numbers look decent right now because of the level of competition he's played against as many of the team's we've played against so far have benches with literally no scoring (Philly, Boston twice, Detroit, Orlando, Miami, Minny, etc.). He misses a bunch of rotations and doesn't have the speed to keep up with most guys either. When someone like Reggie Bullock beats you off the dribble for an open look and misses, it shows up in the stats as a positive for Bud when it shouldn't.

The fact that Bud is almost average at rebounding and Damo is horrid means little imo. Bud is out there solely for shooting and he's been mediocre at it, which I don't expect to improve since it's right in line with his career numbers. And our bench has two elite rebounders in Allen and Hill so rebounding is not a necessity. And we don't know if Damo would have improved on that, especially as he was a rookie learning a totally different style of play. It's a real small sample size, but he's at 5.2% in Minny.

The rest of their numbers are fairly comparable. So when we're looking for shooting out of a guy to stretch the floor, I'd take the guy who shoots it 5% better over the guy who rebounds 3.6% better when all else is similar.

Bud's not out there solely for shooting though. At least, not according to Vogel and Bird. He's out there to run the court, handle the ball a little, slash to the hoop, and hopefully shoot. There's one thing listed he doesn't do as well as Damo, and 3 that he does do infinitely better, without even addressing defense or rebounding. Keep in mind, Damo's numbers were generally against guys number 7-12 on a roster, while Budinger is generally against guys number 2-7 on a roster.

And I'd probably disagree on the guy that shoots it 5% better over a guy who rebounds 3.6% better. Remember, that 5% better is on 1-2 shots a game. Over the course of a season, that's around 4-6 total shots better on the year, maybe less so, seeing as how Damo may not be able to get on the court for anything but garbage minutes. That rebounding 3.6% better is on all rebounds total. If Damo isn't given a green light to shoot, and isn't playing minutes, he can't shoot better, and if he isn't given a green light, he's only detracting in every other avenue of the game. To play for Vogel, you have to try to play defense, rebound, and get up the court. Damo just doesn't fit any of those 3. We talk about wanting rebounding, defense, and shooting at all 5 positions. Damo gives you shooting. He hurts you in every other avenue. I just don't know that Damo would be getting any minutes this year, or if he'd only be a human victory cigar to fill out garbage minutes at the end of games.

Bud may be out there because the staff wants him to do those things, but I haven't seen him do any of them at even an average level. I've seen your stereotypical player who is athletic so it's assumed he will do well at things like that, but he doesn't. I've seen him be tentative running the floor and run into our guys on offense while slashing numerous times. We just have enough bailout guys on offense to cover for things like that when they're hot and they have been. Maybe he's like that because of uncertainty with his injury, I'm not sure. But the fact that his numbers with us are so close to his career numbers lead me to believe this is just the player he will always be.

I wouldn't expect Damo to get any minutes this year either. But I don't think Bud deserves more than garbage minutes right now and is getting them primarily because he's a "vet." I just don't see those skills in his play, despite the ability being there.

I can agree with a lot of this. I think some of Bud's minutes have to do with the fact that he's a vet, and the rest have to do with CJ Miles playing the 4 lately, and the sheer disappointment of Solo Hill. Maybe Bud gets benched later on, too, but not until Vogel gets fully disappointed in him.

Either way, I'm still ok with Budinger for Damo. To me, Budinger is a guy that could fill up spare minutes in case of an injury or whatnot, whereas Damo was just never going to be that.

[boomershadow]

I think some of Bud's minutes have to do with the fact that he's a vet, and the rest have to do with CJ Miles playing the 4 lately, and the sheer disappointment of Solo Hill. Maybe Bud gets benched later on, too, but not until Vogel gets fully disappointed in him.

Shoot, I'd rather see Solomon Hill get some backup minutes at the 3 than keep on with Budinger. The two times I've been watching a game and saw him get action I liked what I saw.

[pacers33granger]

I think some of Bud's minutes have to do with the fact that he's a vet, and the rest have to do with CJ Miles playing the 4 lately, and the sheer disappointment of Solo Hill. Maybe Bud gets benched later on, too, but not until Vogel gets fully disappointed in him.

Shoot, I'd rather see Solomon Hill get some backup minutes at the 3 than keep on with Budinger. The two times I've been watching a game and saw him get action I liked what I saw.

Solo did look pretty solid in the few games he's played in. Would love to see him out there as a 5th option and told to focus solely on defense and slashing. I still feel like we've never gotten to see him in that role. He didn't play his rookie year, then was forced into a much bigger role last year, and was asked to be a featured player in SL when all along he should have had a role like Lance did his first year starting.

I get that there may have been some behind the scenes issues with him and he disappointed this offseason, but I see him as a guy who has been almost always asked to be something he is not. I know he won't get the minutes because he can't shoot, but I still want to give him a shot at defending PFs. Either he does nothing and you bench him again or you have a guy who can defend 1-4 well and may garner some trade interest.

[8305]

I don't think it's a Solo vs Bud question at the pf position. Allen pretty much gets those backup minutes. Bud looks to me like he gets the minutes backing up Paul George. In that role I think the better offensive player wins. And, at the offensive end he is better than Solo in just about every way. Maybe not by that much but better nevertheless.

The other problem Solo has is that anyone coming of the bench has to co exist with Monta and Stuckey. In any system you can only utilize so many guys who can't shoot at the same time. I'm not sure long term that Ellis and Stuckey work together. Throwing Solo out there with them would gum things up that much more.