Quarter-pole trade market

[bondom34]

What's the value - explain.

UTAH TRADES: ENES KANTER AND STEVE NOVAK
UTAH RECIEVES: FUTURE OKC 1ST, 2017 DET 2ND, KENDRICK PERKINS, GRANT JERRETT (OKC), AND A OKC DRAFT AND STASH PROSPECT.

Where am I wrong????????????????????????????????

This trade is terrible for Utah.

What else did they get in the Kanter trade? Please let me know. Back it up with evidence.

Not paying Jackson 18 mil a year.

[R-DAWG]

That's the point. He's claiming OKC is somehow at fault.

No, your putting words in my mouth. My point was the Kanter trade could have been done without Reggie Jackson, which the facts that I have backed up with evidence proved.

Reggie Jackson for DJ Augustin, Kyle Singler and a 2017 2nd round pick is good value when Dion Waiters is getting traded for a 1st rd pick. LOL!

Yeah, except Utah wouldn't have done that, and Jackson was gone at year's end and an ass to the team. So again, 2 birds one stone.

WHAT DID DETROIT SEND TO UTAH BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK??? SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT ASSET BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK TO DETROIT SEND TO UTAH TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK.

NAME THE ASSET, POST AN ARTICLE SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. IS THAT ROCKET SCIENCE?

[R-DAWG]

This trade is terrible for Utah.

What else did they get in the Kanter trade? Please let me know. Back it up with evidence.

Not paying Jackson 18 mil a year.

How is that value for Utah when Jackson was never on the roster?? What did Detroit send Utah besides a 2017 2nd rd pick.

State the asset, post an article backing up your argument.

[bondom34]

No, your putting words in my mouth. My point was the Kanter trade could have been done without Reggie Jackson, which the facts that I have backed up with evidence proved.

Reggie Jackson for DJ Augustin, Kyle Singler and a 2017 2nd round pick is good value when Dion Waiters is getting traded for a 1st rd pick. LOL!

Yeah, except Utah wouldn't have done that, and Jackson was gone at year's end and an ass to the team. So again, 2 birds one stone.

WHAT DID DETROIT SEND TO UTAH BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK??? SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT ASSET BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK TO DETROIT SEND TO UTAH TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK.

NAME THE ASSET, POST AN ARTICLE SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. IS THAT ROCKET SCIENCE?

Nothing, that doesn't mean the deal worked without Detroit. Is that rocket science? OKC sent out value in Jackson for Kanter. Detroit essentially got Jackson for nothing. Utah essentially gave up Kanter for nothing. Jackson was gone in 3 months. They got value from him.

[bondom34]

What else did they get in the Kanter trade? Please let me know. Back it up with evidence.

Not paying Jackson 18 mil a year.

How is that value for Utah when Jackson was never on the roster?? What did Detroit send Utah besides a 2017 2nd rd pick.

State the asset, post an article backing up your argument.

The asset Detroit used was paying Jackson. Sorry thought you meant OKC in the prior post. They got him for basically free because Utah got nothing. Edit: Here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25074197/grade-the-trade-detroit-wins-the-reggie-jackson-sweepstakes

So it was agreed pretty well OKC got what they wanted in that deal. Utah got the worst.

[R-DAWG]

Not paying Jackson 18 mil a year.

How is that value for Utah when Jackson was never on the roster?? What did Detroit send Utah besides a 2017 2nd rd pick.

State the asset, post an article backing up your argument.

The asset Detroit used was paying Jackson. Sorry thought you meant OKC in the prior post.

Another argument from you that supports my point that OKC could have acquired Kanter without trading Jackson. The math worked without Detroit and OKC could have sent a small asset of their won to replace the 2017 2nd Detroit got.

Now what you should have stated was Detroit needed Utah in order to make the deal work since the salaries of Singler and Augustin were significantly higher than Jackson's and thus did not fit in the 125% + 100k rule for the trade.

[bondom34]

How is that value for Utah when Jackson was never on the roster?? What did Detroit send Utah besides a 2017 2nd rd pick.

State the asset, post an article backing up your argument.

The asset Detroit used was paying Jackson. Sorry thought you meant OKC in the prior post.

Another argument from you that supports my point that OKC could have acquired Kanter without trading Jackson. The math worked without Detroit and OKC could have sent a small asset of their won to replace the 2017 2nd Detroit got.

Now what you should have stated was Detroit needed Utah in order to make the deal work since the salaries of Singler and Augustin were significantly higher than Jackson's and thus did not fit in the 125% + 100k rule for the trade.

So again, OKC didn't get fleeced in this whole thing and we've gone back and forth for nothing.

[R-DAWG]

Yeah, except Utah wouldn't have done that, and Jackson was gone at year's end and an ass to the team. So again, 2 birds one stone.

WHAT DID DETROIT SEND TO UTAH BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK??? SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT ASSET BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK TO DETROIT SEND TO UTAH TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK.

NAME THE ASSET, POST AN ARTICLE SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. IS THAT ROCKET SCIENCE?

Nothing, that doesn't mean the deal worked without Detroit. Is that rocket science? OKC sent out value in Jackson for Kanter. Detroit essentially got Jackson for nothing. Utah essentially gave up Kanter for nothing. Jackson was gone in 3 months. They got value from him.

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

[bondom34]

WHAT DID DETROIT SEND TO UTAH BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK??? SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT ASSET BESIDES A 2017 2ND ROUND PICK TO DETROIT SEND TO UTAH TO MAKE THE DEAL WORK.

NAME THE ASSET, POST AN ARTICLE SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. IS THAT ROCKET SCIENCE?

Nothing, that doesn't mean the deal worked without Detroit. Is that rocket science? OKC sent out value in Jackson for Kanter. Detroit essentially got Jackson for nothing. Utah essentially gave up Kanter for nothing. Jackson was gone in 3 months. They got value from him.

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

And again, Jackson was gone. Either way he was gone. So trade him or let him walk, and no, OKC is not at fault for Utah taking a bad deal.

[R-DAWG]

The asset Detroit used was paying Jackson. Sorry thought you meant OKC in the prior post.

Another argument from you that supports my point that OKC could have acquired Kanter without trading Jackson. The math worked without Detroit and OKC could have sent a small asset of their won to replace the 2017 2nd Detroit got.

Now what you should have stated was Detroit needed Utah in order to make the deal work since the salaries of Singler and Augustin were significantly higher than Jackson's and thus did not fit in the 125% + 100k rule for the trade.

So again, OKC didn't get fleeced in this whole thing and we've gone back and forth for nothing.

Say what you want they traded 2 future 1st rd picks and Reggie Jackson for a bunch of backups and still don't have a starting caliber shooting guard on the roster. I understand the trade. But you could have signed a DJ Augustin or Kyle Singler level player with the tax payer mid level.

Jackson and 2 future 1's should have been more than enough to get a guy like Furnier or Aaron Afflalo. Heck, take out the pick that went for Kanter and Jackson plus a future 1st should have been more than enough to get involved in the Fournier/Afflalo trade from the summer for 2014. The mistake with Jackson IMO was not trading him during the summer of 2014 if you didn't intend to sign him.

I don't think Presti did a good job last year. I don't think the OKC roster has good balance. In the playoffs you really only need 8 rotation players. But you need guys who can play both ways. OKC is either sacrificing defense or shooting at SG. It's the biggest weakness on the roster. They bought high on Waiters and sold low on Jackson.

[HartfordWhalers]

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

Just gave my breakdown elsewhere but here goes

As part of a 3-team trade:

Det in: Jackson
Det out: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd

OKC in: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd
OKC out: Jackson

Note: This trade doesn't work alone for salary matching, as OKC would need to include a minimum salary player to make it work (Augustin's 3m is the problem, the Thabeet 1.25m TPE could be used for Singler)

Utah in: 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 Det 2nd DET
Utah out: Kanter, Novak,

OKC in (part 2): Novak, Kanter,
OKC out (part 2): 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET

Note: This trade works alone, and allows the first trade to work. The only connection between the trades is the salary matching and the 2017 Detroit 2nd.

If you want to see what deals could be done separate, I would argue both.

The OKC Utah portion could be done by OKC including the makeup value of the Detroit 2nd, via 1.6m in cash they had available for trades and/or a different 2nd rounder. The OKC 2nd rounders are obviously expected to be worse so most likely both, but it seems doable even if it is 2 2nds and the cash.

The Detroit OKC part being separable is tougher, but certainly possible. If OKC included Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET to either Detroit or a 3rd team, that should have been acceptable. But even apart from that, it could have been combined with:

Traded Ish Smith, a 2015 second-rounder (Philadelphia), $801k and the rights to Latavious Williams to Oklahoma City Thunder for a 2016 second-rounder (Sacramento).

NOP would need to 'touch' Detroit in that trade, so include a phantom 2nd or Latavious rights going to Detroit and you are done.

[R-DAWG]

Nothing, that doesn't mean the deal worked without Detroit. Is that rocket science? OKC sent out value in Jackson for Kanter. Detroit essentially got Jackson for nothing. Utah essentially gave up Kanter for nothing. Jackson was gone in 3 months. They got value from him.

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

And again, Jackson was gone. Either way he was gone. So trade him or let him walk, and no, OKC is not at fault for Utah taking a bad deal.

I don't think it was that bad of a deal for Utah. Kanter was gone and they got a 1st rd pick for him. Jackson was gone as you got 2 bench players for him, in the same deal where a 1st rd pick was traded for Kanter.

[bondom34]

Say what you want they traded 2 future 1st rd picks and Reggie Jackson for a bunch of backups and still don't have a starting caliber shooting guard on the roster. I understand the trade. But you could have signed a DJ Augustin or Kyle Singler level player with the tax payer mid level.

Jackson and 2 future 1's should have been more than enough to get a guy like Furnier or Aaron Afflalo. Heck, take out the pick that went for Kanter and Jackson plus a future 1st should have been more than enough to get involved in the Fournier/Afflalo trade from the summer for 2014. The mistake with Jackson IMO was not trading him during the summer of 2014 if you didn't intend to sign him.

I don't think Presti did a good job last year. I don't think the OKC roster has good balance. In the playoffs you really only need 8 rotation players. But you need guys who can play both ways. OKC is either sacrificing defense or shooting at SG. It's the biggest weakness on the roster. They bought high on Waiters and sold low on Jackson.

The only thing I don't like was the Waiters deal, so we agree on that. And the coaching hire right now too, but that's separate. I have zero problem with Jackson because he was a Josh Smith level bad locker room presence and they needed to get something. Kanter offers a skill they've never had and is really useful for them, so say what you will, and the SG still is weak, but I disagree he did a poor job overall, he made 1 bad move.

[R-DAWG]

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

Just gave my breakdown elsewhere but here goes

As part of a 3-team trade:

Det in: Jackson
Det out: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd

OKC in: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd
OKC out: Jackson

Note: This trade doesn't work alone for salary matching, as OKC would need to include a minimum salary player to make it work (Augustin's 3m is the problem, the Thabeet 1.25m TPE could be used for Singler)

Utah in: 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 Det 2nd DET
Utah out: Kanter, Novak,

OKC in (part 2): Novak, Kanter,
OKC out (part 2): 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET

Note: This trade works alone, and allows the first trade to work. The only connection between the trades is the salary matching and the 2017 Detroit 2nd.

If you want to see what deals could be done separate, I would argue both.

The OKC Utah portion could be done by OKC including the makeup value of the Detroit 2nd, via 1.6m in cash they had available for trades and/or a different 2nd rounder. The OKC 2nd rounders are obviously expected to be worse so most likely both, but it seems doable even if it is 2 2nds and the cash.

The Detroit OKC part being separable is tougher, but certainly possible. If OKC included Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET to either Detroit or a 3rd team, that should have been acceptable. But even apart from that, it could have been combined with:

Traded Ish Smith, a 2015 second-rounder (Philadelphia), $801k and the rights to Latavious Williams to Oklahoma City Thunder for a 2016 second-rounder (Sacramento).

NOP would need to 'touch' Detroit in that trade, so include a phantom 2nd or Latavious rights going to Detroit and you are done.

Excellent breakdown. Thank you for posting.

[bondom34]

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

And again, Jackson was gone. Either way he was gone. So trade him or let him walk, and no, OKC is not at fault for Utah taking a bad deal.

I don't think it was that bad of a deal for Utah. Kanter was gone and they got a 1st rd pick for him. Jackson was gone as you got 2 bench players for him, in the same deal where a 1st rd pick was traded for Kanter.

Jackson was gone and they got more in the deal than Utah did. It would have taken a pick to dump perk's contract.

[bondom34]

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

Just gave my breakdown elsewhere but here goes

As part of a 3-team trade:

Det in: Jackson
Det out: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd

OKC in: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd
OKC out: Jackson

Note: This trade doesn't work alone for salary matching, as OKC would need to include a minimum salary player to make it work (Augustin's 3m is the problem, the Thabeet 1.25m TPE could be used for Singler)

Utah in: 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 Det 2nd DET
Utah out: Kanter, Novak,

OKC in (part 2): Novak, Kanter,
OKC out (part 2): 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET

Note: This trade works alone, and allows the first trade to work. The only connection between the trades is the salary matching and the 2017 Detroit 2nd.

If you want to see what deals could be done separate, I would argue both.

The OKC Utah portion could be done by OKC including the makeup value of the Detroit 2nd, via 1.6m in cash they had available for trades and/or a different 2nd rounder. The OKC 2nd rounders are obviously expected to be worse so most likely both, but it seems doable even if it is 2 2nds and the cash.

The Detroit OKC part being separable is tougher, but certainly possible. If OKC included Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET to either Detroit or a 3rd team, that should have been acceptable. But even apart from that, it could have been combined with:

Traded Ish Smith, a 2015 second-rounder (Philadelphia), $801k and the rights to Latavious Williams to Oklahoma City Thunder for a 2016 second-rounder (Sacramento).

NOP would need to 'touch' Detroit in that trade, so include a phantom 2nd or Latavious rights going to Detroit and you are done.

The problem is there's no way utah does that.

[R-DAWG]

Say what you want they traded 2 future 1st rd picks and Reggie Jackson for a bunch of backups and still don't have a starting caliber shooting guard on the roster. I understand the trade. But you could have signed a DJ Augustin or Kyle Singler level player with the tax payer mid level.

Jackson and 2 future 1's should have been more than enough to get a guy like Furnier or Aaron Afflalo. Heck, take out the pick that went for Kanter and Jackson plus a future 1st should have been more than enough to get involved in the Fournier/Afflalo trade from the summer for 2014. The mistake with Jackson IMO was not trading him during the summer of 2014 if you didn't intend to sign him.

I don't think Presti did a good job last year. I don't think the OKC roster has good balance. In the playoffs you really only need 8 rotation players. But you need guys who can play both ways. OKC is either sacrificing defense or shooting at SG. It's the biggest weakness on the roster. They bought high on Waiters and sold low on Jackson.

The only thing I don't like was the Waiters deal, so we agree on that. And the coaching hire right now too, but that's separate. I have zero problem with Jackson because he was a Josh Smith level bad locker room presence and they needed to get something. Kanter offers a skill they've never had and is really useful for them, so say what you will, and the SG still is weak, but I disagree he did a poor job overall, he made 1 bad move.

To be honest I like everything much better for OKC if they either didn't do the Waiters deal or used Jackson as the value to get Waiters. Breaking it down it seems like they downgraded from Jackson to Waiters and gave up a 1st to do so.

I have heard concerns about RJ in the locker room from multiple people so that is valid.

But now your down 2 future 1sts which will make things diffacult at the deadline if a starting caliber SG becomes available. Even if it's a veteran like Aaron Afflalo (if the Knicks start trending downward by the deadline) what does OKC have to offer that the Knicks would want that is fair value for AA on basically an expiring deal. As a Knick fan I'm saying either Adams or Payne would be an overpay from OKC and McGary isn't enough to justify moving AA. However, if OKC could offer the 1st rd pick they gave up for Waiters, different story.

It's kind of funny that OKC didn't go all-in until Durant got hurt.

[R-DAWG]

No they didn't - they sent out Kendrick Perkins and a future 1st round pick.

Jackson was traded to Detroit for Kyle Singler, DJ Augustin and a 2017 2nd rd pick.

Detroit could not do that deal without Utah for cap purposes.

The Utah part of the deal worked without Detroit. The Detroit part didn't work without Utah.

Just gave my breakdown elsewhere but here goes

As part of a 3-team trade:

Det in: Jackson
Det out: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd

OKC in: Augustin, Singler, 2017 2nd, and 2019 2nd
OKC out: Jackson

Note: This trade doesn't work alone for salary matching, as OKC would need to include a minimum salary player to make it work (Augustin's 3m is the problem, the Thabeet 1.25m TPE could be used for Singler)

Utah in: 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 Det 2nd DET
Utah out: Kanter, Novak,

OKC in (part 2): Novak, Kanter,
OKC out (part 2): 2017 (now 18) OKC 1st, Perkins, Pleiss, Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET

Note: This trade works alone, and allows the first trade to work. The only connection between the trades is the salary matching and the 2017 Detroit 2nd.

If you want to see what deals could be done separate, I would argue both.

The OKC Utah portion could be done by OKC including the makeup value of the Detroit 2nd, via 1.6m in cash they had available for trades and/or a different 2nd rounder. The OKC 2nd rounders are obviously expected to be worse so most likely both, but it seems doable even if it is 2 2nds and the cash.

The Detroit OKC part being separable is tougher, but certainly possible. If OKC included Jerrett & 2017 2nd DET to either Detroit or a 3rd team, that should have been acceptable. But even apart from that, it could have been combined with:

Traded Ish Smith, a 2015 second-rounder (Philadelphia), $801k and the rights to Latavious Williams to Oklahoma City Thunder for a 2016 second-rounder (Sacramento).

NOP would need to 'touch' Detroit in that trade, so include a phantom 2nd or Latavious rights going to Detroit and you are done.

The problem is there's no way utah does that.

There is no way Utah does the deal that they did?

[HartfordWhalers]

And again, Jackson was gone. Either way he was gone. So trade him or let him walk, and no, OKC is not at fault for Utah taking a bad deal.

I don't think it was that bad of a deal for Utah. Kanter was gone and they got a 1st rd pick for him. Jackson was gone as you got 2 bench players for him, in the same deal where a 1st rd pick was traded for Kanter.

Jackson was gone and they got more in the deal than Utah did. It would have taken a pick to dump perk's contract.

We discussed this back then and my take was Perkins for Novak was a fair swap of bad contracts.

In terms of Perkins --
$9,654,342 cap hit this year.
Novak --
$3,445,947 cap hit this year
$3,750,001 next year.

Novak's next year should be more than Perkin's remaining prorated balance. If we are talking a straight swap of bad contracts, I would say that a 1 for 1 deal, I think it might be fair value, although I would argue that the team getting it all over at once now is getting the better end of it.

My other takes from back then:

So...
Kanter is worth a first and Tibor, while Jackson is worth a 2nd and Singler?

Love what Detroit did.
Love what Utah got (because I dislike Kanter).

OKC just doubled down on the Waiters deal, now trading another 1st for a flawed former high pick. As a combined deal, I like this less than the Waiters deal for them.

{Edit: Should have been Jackson is worth 2 2nds, and Kanter is worth a first Tibor and a 2nd, but missing a second on each is fair right?}

I think having the defenders around Kanter surely will help, but when they are playing the likes of TD and Gasol, they're going to have to have Adams in or Ibaka play them. If anything they can do what the Nets do with Lopez and let Kanter do his damage against second units from the bench and if the match=up is right or he's play well keep him in. Seems there is plenty of time as Adams can be foul prone, and I think Kanter can play some PF.

So, in order for Kanter to work defensively, he would need someone like Favors and Gobert? I hate the low return for Jackson, but I also hate the high price OKC paid for Kanter and don't see him fitting.

viewtopic.php?p=42742873

[HartfordWhalers]

Crap. I get only 2 a week and I used em both up.