Game 20: Phoenix Suns (8-11) @ Washington Wizards (7-9)

[|llsT oNe]

Any chance you guys are just trying to tank?

I can't understand how Warren or Leuer (in tonight's case) get so hot, and then inexplicably play fewer minutes than guys doing much worse?

That's our suspicion too. Otherwise it makes no sense.

There's a way to tank and develop young players though. Tanking and playing vets (ideally you'd trade them) makes no sense, and McD is smarter than that.

The only explanation is this is a poorly executed play to build up Kief's value. Unfortunately he's mentally weak which is derailing the whole thing, and the team in the process. Just my 2c

[Matt1979]

He's definitely trying to lose on purpose and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise given the recent evidence.

I'm don't with the team now until something changes. No longer am I staying up till 3-4am watching them lose due to terrible coaching.

[Fo-Real]

It's almost like someone being hot or effective means nothing to Jeff's substitution pattern in that game. I love the fact that Leur uses his shot to open up opportunities to open up his drives to the hoop with pump fakes and jab steps after, I hate the fact that Kief has no interest in trying to get to the basket AT ALL, just how to get off a least contested long jumper.

[In Len We Trust]

Horny is approaching Bryon Scott levels of bad rotations.

The good news is other than that, he's a great coach. Hopefully this is a big wakeup call/ learning experience for him.

A great coach? WTF is he great at? It sure isn't in game adjustments or getting his players to respect him. He's **** garbage. This is a roster that is EASILY better than .500 and we are about to be 8-14.

He flat out does not deserve to be employed. The fact that he still has a job is pathetic.

[rsavaj]

I still like Hornacek but am I crazy wanting D'Antoni back? Nevertheless, I'm done with this team as long as Morris is still on the roster, the basketball is completely unwatchable right now. Hopefully, something changes soon.

I'm in the camp that coaching has far less to do with a team's performance than the actual makeup of the roster, and I'm not alone in that camp. It's not just anecdotal; there's some data to support it as well:
http://freakonomics.com/2013/05/30/a-former-nba-coach-argues-that-coaches-are-not-responsible-for-outcomes/
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/123690412/david-blatt-lebron-james-buzzer-beater-game-4-scratched-the-play

I forgot where I saw it, but as far as "wins-added", there are only a few coaches in the league who make a difference, and by "difference" I mean "this team won significantly more than their talent would suggest": Pop, Carlisle, and Thibs. Everybody else's squads would essentially end up with the same win total(plus or minus a few) if you randomized coaches throughout the league.

I don't think firing Horny makes a big difference for this team at all unless you hire a guy like Thibs, but then you need to accept the bad that comes with Thibs's brilliance. Our young guys aren't going to get any playing time under Thibs's rotations. Does this make me Hornaecek defender who thinks he's a brilliant coach? No. If you're not in the "you're so good your coaching actually elevates the roster" group(above), then you're all pretty much the same to me, so I don't care if Horny gets fired or not. I just don't see the point of firing him for a lateral move.

For pure nostalgia's sake, I'd really enjoy D'Antoni back, and I think he's a good coach, but I don't think he moves the needle much at all.

TL, DR: while changing the coach might add a few wins here or there, the ultimate problem is the roster, not the coach

[In Len We Trust]

I still like Hornacek but am I crazy wanting D'Antoni back? Nevertheless, I'm done with this team as long as Morris is still on the roster, the basketball is completely unwatchable right now. Hopefully, something changes soon.

I'm in the camp that coaching has far less to do with a team's performance than the actual makeup of the roster, and I'm not alone in that camp. It's not just anecdotal; there's some data to support it as well:
http://freakonomics.com/2013/05/30/a-former-nba-coach-argues-that-coaches-are-not-responsible-for-outcomes/
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/123690412/david-blatt-lebron-james-buzzer-beater-game-4-scratched-the-play

I forgot where I saw it, but as far as "wins-added", there are only a few coaches in the league who make a difference, and by "difference" I mean "this team won significantly more than their talent would suggest": Pop, Carlisle, and Thibs. Everybody else's squads would essentially end up with the same win total(plus or minus a few) if you randomized coaches throughout the league.

I don't think firing Horny makes a big difference for this team at all unless you hire a guy like Thibs, but then you need to accept the bad that comes with Thibs's brilliance. Our young guys aren't going to get any playing time under Thibs's rotations. Does this make me Hornaecek defender who thinks he's a brilliant coach? No. If you're not in the "you're so good your coaching actually elevates the roster" group(above), then you're all pretty much the same to me, so I don't care if Horny gets fired or not. I just don't see the point of firing him for a lateral move.

For pure nostalgia's sake, I'd really enjoy D'Antoni back, and I think he's a good coach, but I don't think he moves the needle much at all.

TL, DR: while changing the coach might add a few wins here or there, the ultimate problem is the roster, not the coach

I completely agree, but Jeffs late game decision making has absolutely costed us several wins this year already and there are still 62 games to go. Hornacek is one of the rare coaches that truly ruins the win/loss record of his team.

[jeff2020]

I have no interest in switching coaches mid season. It's not going to help anything at all. I want to see what this team looks like once we unload kieff. There really is no way this is hornacek' call playing him late in the games like this. Higher up has to be telling him to play this bum to increase his trade value. If it continues to go bad then yes we need a new coach next season but an interm coach isn't helping this team long term. Just gotta ride this painful season out again

[Matt1979]

Well if everyone is fed up of the Suns and wants to see some winning TEAM basketball check out the free live stream of my local pro team.

A few Team GB international and some ex college American players.

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#WeRide

[RaisingArizona]

What about Danny Manning or even KJ now that he's not returning as mayor?

[RaisingArizona]

I'd even welcome the Pringles man back at this point. Maybe he can recruit Nash to be assistance coach or something?

[PackSuns]

What about Calimari? Half our team has played for him.

[bwgood77]

What about Calimari? Half our team has played for him.

I love the stuff. Makes me want some seafood right now.

Oh, my bad, did you mean Calipari? I'm guessing he's fine where he's at. He didn't do so well in the nba. It's gotta be nice having the most talent by far every year on your team.

I'll start putting some real thought into who I think my be good, who would realistically come.

[JMac1]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Luke Walton. Gambo SWEARS by his insiders that Luke could be our next coach. He said even though his success is more GS talent, Luke ties to Arizona via U of A and other connections has Luke in the front line after Jeff contracts expires this year.

Do I want Luke? I don't know. Does Luke know how to use the talent he has? It appears so.

Trying to feed Kieff the ball late in games just to watch a turnover or him jack up a contested J is killing me. I could really care less what happens this season, as long as Kieff is on this team it is doomed to fail. I like the Bled Knight combo, but I might be for moving Knight along with Kieff.

Leuer should be starting; he as most posters whine about here "deserves it/earned it." Booker knows when to shoot, pass, and drive. He needs to tighten up his D and given the keys to the SG position. Telly has earned his keep....definite big player off of the bench; and of course TJ should be starting and closing games

Bledsoe
Booker
Warren
Leuer
Chandler

If Horny had allowed those guy to play together and develop chemistry together, we would have won the both NO games, plus the Det, Nets, and Wiz game....also the Pistons game at home. Instead of 8-12 we'd be 14-6. Talent keeps you in games, good coaching wins them!!

Knight and Telly 6th and 7th men


We are going to miss the playoffs and get a horrible pick at th same time for the umpteeth year in a row

[WeekapaugGroove]

Just buyout Markieff...

nope - somebody will take him lame arse

I do call Thibodeau
there is zero reason to have that unit on the floor last night

Yeah I wouldn't buy out keif. Why reward him for being a punk, just sit his ass on the bench until he's a throw in a trade or he rots for the next four years.

I'd be very leary of thibs. I could see tucker playing like 48 minutes a game with him as coach and none of the young guys getting any run. Now if he's learned from his bulls tenure where he's willing to limit guys minutes and if he agrees to hire a good offensive assistant then sure he'd be a good hire.

[bwgood77]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Luke Walton. Gambo SWEARS by his insiders that Luke could be our next coach. He said even though his success is more GS talent, Luke ties to Arizona via U of A and other connections has Luke in the front line after Jeff contracts expires this year.

Do I want Luke? I don't know. Does Luke know how to use the talent he has? It appears so.

Tons of people have mentioned Luke. I even addressed hiring him twice, wondering if he would want to given his ties to Gentry and Kerr and their salty departures from the Suns, knowing what Sarver is like to work for, already being part of a historic team, maybe wanting more time as an asst, being a Cali guy, etc. Then again, it's gotta be tough to pass it up if offered. Many assistants turn down interviews for a long time (Budenholzer, for example did).

[bwgood77]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Luke Walton. Gambo SWEARS by his insiders that Luke could be our next coach. He said even though his success is more GS talent, Luke ties to Arizona via U of A and other connections has Luke in the front line after Jeff contracts expires this year.

Do I want Luke? I don't know. Does Luke know how to use the talent he has? It appears so.

Tons of people have mentioned Luke. I even addressed hiring him twice, wondering if he would want to given his ties to Gentry and Kerr and their salty departures from the Suns, knowing what Sarver is like to work for, already being part of a historic team, maybe wanting more time as an asst, being a Cali guy, etc. Then again, it's gotta be tough to pass it up if offered. Many assistants turn down interviews for a long time (Budenholzer, for example did).

[JMac1]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Luke Walton. Gambo SWEARS by his insiders that Luke could be our next coach. He said even though his success is more GS talent, Luke ties to Arizona via U of A and other connections has Luke in the front line after Jeff contracts expires this year.

Do I want Luke? I don't know. Does Luke know how to use the talent he has? It appears so.

Tons of people have mentioned Luke. I even addressed hiring him twice, wondering if he would want to given his ties to Gentry and Kerr and their salty departures from the Suns, knowing what Sarver is like to work for, already being part of a historic team, maybe wanting more time as an asst, being a Cali guy, etc. Then again, it's gotta be tough to pass it up if offered. Many assistants turn down interviews for a long time (Budenholzer, for example did).

You always take the HC job unless your asst job is of greater value; and I don't think his is. The Sarver point could be valid.......man that is another person in this organization I hate

[thamadkant]

Hornacek is / was coaching for a contract. But has probably given up lately.

He keeps playing Price as backup PG, who works hard and is smart... But on any other team in the league would probablu not sniff any minutes. Hornacek should be letting Goodwin get those minutes to develop him. I actually really like the potential of the bench with Len, Booker, Goodwin.


Price should be part of the coaching staff if anything.


In any case, Im sure McD is also under scrutiny. But he will survive this... Because he has brought in Bledsoe, Knight and a host of draft picks thay have good potential.


Walton will be offered a contract next season... Its almost too obvious. Whether he accepts it or not is the issue.


Tucker, Morris are on the block IMO.
Only way to explain their minutes even when their backups are playing better.

As I mentioned at the start of the season.... REMOVING Morris is/was critical to the team's chemistry. Its addition by substraction... Put a player that wants to be on the team on his place and the team plays much better even if individual talent is lesser. Its common knowledge to team sports.

[PackSuns]

What about Calimari? Half our team has played for him.

I love the stuff. Makes me want some seafood right now.

Oh, my bad, did you mean Calipari? I'm guessing he's fine where he's at. He didn't do so well in the nba. It's gotta be nice having the most talent by far every year on your team.

I'll start putting some real thought into who I think my be good, who would realistically come.

That was intentional due to him being slimey. What about Kevin Ollie?

[Mulhollanddrive]

For all our problems we're 5th in Offensive Rating.

So you can get rid of Tucker and Markieff and it wouldn't improve that much.

Comes back to defense 22nd in Defensive Rating, same old Suns problem.

Sarver doesn't give a **** as long as we're running up and down fast and within 8th seed, so it's allowed to slide.