How Can the Heat Beat Small Ball ?

[smartcane]

The solution to Small ball for the Heat is GO BIG. WHITESIDE, BOSH, McRoberts with two shooters at guard ( Green, Dragic or TJ). On Offense the advantage is obvious because we can still space while pounding them down low but real reason to go big is defense. The whole reason team like small ball is to open up the paint. With Three bigs we have three guys that can basically rotate into the paint to protect the rim and avoid illegal defense calls. The two guards basically stay tight on the two best shooters and lets see if their 3rd, 4th and 5th best shooters can beat us. I think we are one of the only teams that can do this because of the versatility of Bosh and Mcroberts. Oh by the way, Whiteside and McRoberts would play off his guy and let them shoot but take away the drive. If they gets caught on a switch with a good shooter, the guards should double immediately.

[Heat_Fan_87]

We would get blown out facing a small ball lineup with bob, bosh and whiteside on the floor. not to mention our offense would be terrible.

[heat4life]

Here is what I posted on another thread...

Here is a blog from Ethan which shows the oppositions side in the Whiteside discussion. Hopefully this helps some in here understand that ALL Whiteside is not always ALL good at the end of games, especially when teams are going ultra small with a 6'7 center.

Did Wittman go small in part to get Whiteside off the floor?

"Well, I didn't have any other option, in truth," said Wittman, who was without frontcourt regulars Marcin Gortat and Nene. "And Duds does a good job of defending. I thought he fought (Chris) Bosh as good as he could. You know, we probably would have continued to do that. If they wanted to go big, we felt we'll let 'em post Whiteside. You know, that's something I don't think they want to do a whole lot the way they play. So we're making them do something they don't want to do."

Some will read that as an indictment of Spoelstra. Why not just punch it inside? But couldn't it also be seen as a dare to go to Whiteside, whose post game -- especially his passing -- still requires some refinement? It's not as if Whiteside was killing the Wizards with his post play earlier. Six of his seven baskets were dunks off passes from Dwyane Wade (three assists) or Goran Dragic (three assists). He's becoming an elite relief option, when a guard can't get all the way to the rim, or that guard sees a lob as a better option than a shot. That doesn't make him a primary option, not yet.

When I suggested that Spoelstra left Whiteside on the bench in the fourth quarter out of the fear of chasing Dudley out to the arc, Dudley replied, "I bet."

Dudley explained that, with Josh McRoberts guarding him, and Wade guarding point guard Ramon Sessions, the Wizards got the Heat in a pick-and-roll situation, and Sessions made an open three-pointer.

"So whoever has the mismatch with the big, we were gonna put them in pick-and-rolls," Dudley said. "And that's what we have to do with our team right now."

Link

[Heat_Fan_87]

Here is what I posted on another thread...

Here is a blog from Ethan which shows the oppositions side in the Whiteside discussion. Hopefully this helps some in here understand that ALL Whiteside is not always ALL good at the end of games, especially when teams are going ultra small with a 6'7 center.

Did Wittman go small in part to get Whiteside off the floor?

"Well, I didn't have any other option, in truth," said Wittman, who was without frontcourt regulars Marcin Gortat and Nene. "And Duds does a good job of defending. I thought he fought (Chris) Bosh as good as he could. You know, we probably would have continued to do that. If they wanted to go big, we felt we'll let 'em post Whiteside. You know, that's something I don't think they want to do a whole lot the way they play. So we're making them do something they don't want to do."

Some will read that as an indictment of Spoelstra. Why not just punch it inside? But couldn't it also be seen as a dare to go to Whiteside, whose post game -- especially his passing -- still requires some refinement? It's not as if Whiteside was killing the Wizards with his post play earlier. Six of his seven baskets were dunks off passes from Dwyane Wade (three assists) or Goran Dragic (three assists). He's becoming an elite relief option, when a guard can't get all the way to the rim, or that guard sees a lob as a better option than a shot. That doesn't make him a primary option, not yet.

When I suggested that Spoelstra left Whiteside on the bench in the fourth quarter out of the fear of chasing Dudley out to the arc, Dudley replied, "I bet."

Dudley explained that, with Josh McRoberts guarding him, and Wade guarding point guard Ramon Sessions, the Wizards got the Heat in a pick-and-roll situation, and Sessions made an open three-pointer.

"So whoever has the mismatch with the big, we were gonna put them in pick-and-rolls," Dudley said. "And that's what we have to do with our team right now."

Link

Yep. Good insight. We need to find a way to counter that, whether its a mini zone or something else, spo needs to find a way to minimize whiteside weaknesses out there so we can play him. But for right now, Bosh at the 5 is a better option for us. It would be nice if our "PF" could make 3's in the small ball lineup

[Illmatic12]

You guys can't have Winslow out there to close games.. that was what killed the Heat last night, not the absence of Whiteside.

Winslow is too much of a non-threat offensively, it was almost like the Wiz were playing 4v5 because they kept helping off of him and using his man to roam and overhelp. If you swap Winslow with Deng/McRoberts (or any 4-man who is a floor-spacing threat) the Heat would have been more likely to win that game.

Bosh is more than fine as a smallball 5. If Miami closed with Whiteside, the Wiz would have just put him on the FT line rather than letting him dunk. And he can't matchup quickly enough in transition or defend the 3pt line when his man is basically a wing player slotted at C.

[Heat_Fan_87]

You guys can't have Winslow out there to close games.. that was what killed the Heat last night, not the absence of Whiteside.

Winslow is too much of a non-threat offensively, it was almost like the Wiz were playing 4v5 because they kept helping off of him and using his man to roam and overhelp.

Bosh is more than fine as a smallball 5. If Miami closed with Whiteside, the Wiz would have just put him on the FT line rather than letting him dunk. And he can't matchup quickly enough in transition or defend the 3pt line when his man is basically a wing player slotted at C.

winslow is not usually that bad, he is good for 1 3 a game and like 7 or 8 points. last night was his worst game offensively. and deng was out, if deng was active he would probably be starting and finished last night with winslow struggling.

it was a tie game late and 2 miami turnovers and a bad call later it was over.

[Illmatic12]

You guys can't have Winslow out there to close games.. that was what killed the Heat last night, not the absence of Whiteside.

Winslow is too much of a non-threat offensively, it was almost like the Wiz were playing 4v5 because they kept helping off of him and using his man to roam and overhelp.

Bosh is more than fine as a smallball 5. If Miami closed with Whiteside, the Wiz would have just put him on the FT line rather than letting him dunk. And he can't matchup quickly enough in transition or defend the 3pt line when his man is basically a wing player slotted at C.

winslow is not usually that bad, he is good for 1 3 a game and like 7 or 8 points. last night was his worst game offensively. and deng was out, if deng was active he would probably be starting and finished last night with winslow struggling.

it was a tie game late and 2 miami turnovers and a bad call later it was over.

He's still a ways off from being considered a floor spacing threat though, which is what you ideally want in a small ball lineup. At least 4, or even 5 guys who are at least moderate threats away from the basket.

Deng at PF is definitely the way to go in those situations, when he gets back.

I don't get why so many Heat fans are killing Spoelstra for not playing Whiteside though, like you said it was a close game till the end. His lineups clearly allowed Miami to matchup with the pace of the game in the 4th q.

[Heat_Fan_87]

You guys can't have Winslow out there to close games.. that was what killed the Heat last night, not the absence of Whiteside.

Winslow is too much of a non-threat offensively, it was almost like the Wiz were playing 4v5 because they kept helping off of him and using his man to roam and overhelp.

Bosh is more than fine as a smallball 5. If Miami closed with Whiteside, the Wiz would have just put him on the FT line rather than letting him dunk. And he can't matchup quickly enough in transition or defend the 3pt line when his man is basically a wing player slotted at C.

winslow is not usually that bad, he is good for 1 3 a game and like 7 or 8 points. last night was his worst game offensively. and deng was out, if deng was active he would probably be starting and finished last night with winslow struggling.

it was a tie game late and 2 miami turnovers and a bad call later it was over.

He's still a ways off from being considered a floor spacing threat though, which is what you ideally want in a small ball lineup. At least 4, or even 5 guys who are at least moderate threats away from the basket.

Deng at PF is definitely the way to go in those situations, when he gets back.

I don't get why so many Heat fans are killing Spoelstra for not playing Whiteside though, like you said it was a close game till the end. His lineups clearly allowed Miami to matchup with the pace of the game in the 4th q.

spoelstra always get killed here, especially after a loss.

[Bishop45]

I've been hornin' on the benching of Whiteside since game 1, Spo has showed a tremendous lack of trust for him. Winslow and Richardson were blowing assignments all night on defense and he stuck with them, as he has done with other players on other nights. I would rather they hack Hassan and we play through it, then to have sat him the entire quarter. I've never really ished on Spo before this season and I still think he's a great coach. He's really not handling this very well imo

[QUIZ]

Here is what I posted on another thread...

Here is a blog from Ethan which shows the oppositions side in the Whiteside discussion. Hopefully this helps some in here understand that ALL Whiteside is not always ALL good at the end of games, especially when teams are going ultra small with a 6'7 center.

Did Wittman go small in part to get Whiteside off the floor?

"Well, I didn't have any other option, in truth," said Wittman, who was without frontcourt regulars Marcin Gortat and Nene. "And Duds does a good job of defending. I thought he fought (Chris) Bosh as good as he could. You know, we probably would have continued to do that. If they wanted to go big, we felt we'll let 'em post Whiteside. You know, that's something I don't think they want to do a whole lot the way they play. So we're making them do something they don't want to do."

Some will read that as an indictment of Spoelstra. Why not just punch it inside? But couldn't it also be seen as a dare to go to Whiteside, whose post game -- especially his passing -- still requires some refinement? It's not as if Whiteside was killing the Wizards with his post play earlier. Six of his seven baskets were dunks off passes from Dwyane Wade (three assists) or Goran Dragic (three assists). He's becoming an elite relief option, when a guard can't get all the way to the rim, or that guard sees a lob as a better option than a shot. That doesn't make him a primary option, not yet.

When I suggested that Spoelstra left Whiteside on the bench in the fourth quarter out of the fear of chasing Dudley out to the arc, Dudley replied, "I bet."

Dudley explained that, with Josh McRoberts guarding him, and Wade guarding point guard Ramon Sessions, the Wizards got the Heat in a pick-and-roll situation, and Sessions made an open three-pointer.

"So whoever has the mismatch with the big, we were gonna put them in pick-and-rolls," Dudley said. "And that's what we have to do with our team right now."

Link

Come on heat4life you've been watching basketball for a long time, "ultra small"? It was a gimmick, what Washington did isn't some viable strategy to keep Whiteside off of the floor. If the answer to getting a center out of the game was going super small we should've put LeBron at center when he was here and surrounded him for 4 guards when facing the Pacers.

We actually tired to do that once in 2012 when we were getting blown out by the Celtics in the playoffs. We cut a huge lead down until the Celtics put in KG and stopped trying to matchup with us.

In a 7 game playoff series the Wizards wouldn't get away with Dudley at center.

[heat4life]

Here is what I posted on another thread...

Here is a blog from Ethan which shows the oppositions side in the Whiteside discussion. Hopefully this helps some in here understand that ALL Whiteside is not always ALL good at the end of games, especially when teams are going ultra small with a 6'7 center.

Did Wittman go small in part to get Whiteside off the floor?

"Well, I didn't have any other option, in truth," said Wittman, who was without frontcourt regulars Marcin Gortat and Nene. "And Duds does a good job of defending. I thought he fought (Chris) Bosh as good as he could. You know, we probably would have continued to do that. If they wanted to go big, we felt we'll let 'em post Whiteside. You know, that's something I don't think they want to do a whole lot the way they play. So we're making them do something they don't want to do."

Some will read that as an indictment of Spoelstra. Why not just punch it inside? But couldn't it also be seen as a dare to go to Whiteside, whose post game -- especially his passing -- still requires some refinement? It's not as if Whiteside was killing the Wizards with his post play earlier. Six of his seven baskets were dunks off passes from Dwyane Wade (three assists) or Goran Dragic (three assists). He's becoming an elite relief option, when a guard can't get all the way to the rim, or that guard sees a lob as a better option than a shot. That doesn't make him a primary option, not yet.

When I suggested that Spoelstra left Whiteside on the bench in the fourth quarter out of the fear of chasing Dudley out to the arc, Dudley replied, "I bet."

Dudley explained that, with Josh McRoberts guarding him, and Wade guarding point guard Ramon Sessions, the Wizards got the Heat in a pick-and-roll situation, and Sessions made an open three-pointer.

"So whoever has the mismatch with the big, we were gonna put them in pick-and-rolls," Dudley said. "And that's what we have to do with our team right now."

Link

Come on heat4life you've been watching basketball for a long time, "ultra small"? It was a gimmick, what Washington did isn't some viable strategy to keep Whiteside off of the floor. If the answer to getting a center out of the game was going super small we should've put LeBron at center when he was here and surrounded him for 4 guards when facing the Pacers.

We actually tired to do that once in 2012 when we were getting blown out by the Celtics in the playoffs. We cut a huge lead down until the Celtics put in KG and stopped trying to matchup with us.

In a 7 game playoff series the Wizards wouldn't get away with Dudley at center.

I never said it was a strategy. If anything the people who keep suggesting that Spo got out-coached are putting the focus on strategy. I believe the Wizards did it out of desperation/necessity and found gold. If Gortat and/or Nene are available, the Wizard don't go small, we play Hassan and we are not having this conversation. They HAD to go small with Wall, Beal, Neal, Porter, Dudley because Temple, Sessions, Hollins, Humphries and Blair were their other options (ouch). Now, are you going to tell me that Dragic, Wade, Winslow, Green and Bosh are not a match for those five? We couldn't defend that lineup Wall (26pts), Neal (21pts), Beal (21pts), Porter (13pts) and Dudley (12pts). They shot 50% from the field and from 3pt, 76% FT's. We got outplayed! Same happened against Boston.

As for your LeBron era comparison, it's ludicrous to even suggest that unless you consider Bosh a stiff. The Pacers were a completely different and much better team. LeBron rarely ever had to play the five because we had Chris Bosh to do it plus MUCH better outside shooters. Different circumstances. Otherwise, I agree with you in that in a 7 game series this is not an issue, if only because I doubt those 5 players that closed the game would choke similarly in 4 games against the same team.

[Cmon_Son-_-]

I have no problem with Spo benching Whiteside if he was ineffective vs the Small ball but Spo didn't even try to go big in the 4th. I'm usually not Spo's biggest critic but he put out there a lineup that featured TJ-Jrich-Winslow-McBob-Green. If he could put a lineup that bad out on the floor for even a minute, Why not try to go big by putting Whitside in the game?

[QUIZ]

I never said it was a strategy. If anything the people who keep suggesting that Spo got out-coached are putting the focus on strategy. I believe the Wizards did it out of desperation/necessity and found gold. If Gortat and/or Nene are available, the Wizard don't go small, we play Hassan and we are not having this conversation. They HAD to go small with Wall, Beal, Neal, Porter, Dudley because Temple, Sessions, Hollins, Humphries and Blair were their other options (ouch). Now, are you going to tell me that Dragic, Wade, Winslow, Green and Bosh are not a match for those five? We couldn't defend that lineup Wall (26pts), Neal (21pts), Beal (21pts), Porter (13pts) and Dudley (12pts). They shot 50% from the field and from 3pt, 76% FT's. We got outplayed! Same happened against Boston.

As for your LeBron era comparison, it's ludicrous to even suggest that unless you consider Bosh a stiff. The Pacers were a completely different and much better team. LeBron rarely ever had to play the five because we had Chris Bosh to do it plus MUCH better outside shooters. Different circumstances. Otherwise, I agree with you in that in a 7 game series this is not an issue, if only because I doubt those 5 players that closed the game would choke similarly in 4 games against the same team.

I get it, if we won we're probably not having this conversation and maybe Whiteside isn't the answer but it doesn't change the fact that we're starting to head down a slippery slope.

I'm not just upset about our rotations yesterday its more about our rotations going forward. Come playoff time if the opposing team goes small are we just going to bench Whiteside. Are we really going to turn him into a player that can be schemed out of games so easily?

Yesterday we were caught off guard but the idea that Spo is going to let inferior/overmatched teams dictate our own rotations is absolutely ludicrous.

[Heat_Fan_87]

Here is what I posted on another thread...

Here is a blog from Ethan which shows the oppositions side in the Whiteside discussion. Hopefully this helps some in here understand that ALL Whiteside is not always ALL good at the end of games, especially when teams are going ultra small with a 6'7 center.

Did Wittman go small in part to get Whiteside off the floor?

"Well, I didn't have any other option, in truth," said Wittman, who was without frontcourt regulars Marcin Gortat and Nene. "And Duds does a good job of defending. I thought he fought (Chris) Bosh as good as he could. You know, we probably would have continued to do that. If they wanted to go big, we felt we'll let 'em post Whiteside. You know, that's something I don't think they want to do a whole lot the way they play. So we're making them do something they don't want to do."

Some will read that as an indictment of Spoelstra. Why not just punch it inside? But couldn't it also be seen as a dare to go to Whiteside, whose post game -- especially his passing -- still requires some refinement? It's not as if Whiteside was killing the Wizards with his post play earlier. Six of his seven baskets were dunks off passes from Dwyane Wade (three assists) or Goran Dragic (three assists). He's becoming an elite relief option, when a guard can't get all the way to the rim, or that guard sees a lob as a better option than a shot. That doesn't make him a primary option, not yet.

When I suggested that Spoelstra left Whiteside on the bench in the fourth quarter out of the fear of chasing Dudley out to the arc, Dudley replied, "I bet."

Dudley explained that, with Josh McRoberts guarding him, and Wade guarding point guard Ramon Sessions, the Wizards got the Heat in a pick-and-roll situation, and Sessions made an open three-pointer.

"So whoever has the mismatch with the big, we were gonna put them in pick-and-rolls," Dudley said. "And that's what we have to do with our team right now."

Link

Come on heat4life you've been watching basketball for a long time, "ultra small"? It was a gimmick, what Washington did isn't some viable strategy to keep Whiteside off of the floor. If the answer to getting a center out of the game was going super small we should've put LeBron at center when he was here and surrounded him for 4 guards when facing the Pacers.

We actually tired to do that once in 2012 when we were getting blown out by the Celtics in the playoffs. We cut a huge lead down until the Celtics put in KG and stopped trying to matchup with us.

In a 7 game playoff series the Wizards wouldn't get away with Dudley at center.

whiteside and kg?? huh?

[QUIZ]

whiteside and kg?? huh?

*35 year old KG. Who was basically a 15 and 8 guy at that point.
KG vs LeBron
Whiteside vs Dudley

Seems comparable in the grand scheme of things considering Whiteside would have a cooked vet guarding him as opposed to KG who had a 265lb prime LBJ to deal with.

[heat4life]

I never said it was a strategy. If anything the people who keep suggesting that Spo got out-coached are putting the focus on strategy. I believe the Wizards did it out of desperation/necessity and found gold. If Gortat and/or Nene are available, the Wizard don't go small, we play Hassan and we are not having this conversation. They HAD to go small with Wall, Beal, Neal, Porter, Dudley because Temple, Sessions, Hollins, Humphries and Blair were their other options (ouch). Now, are you going to tell me that Dragic, Wade, Winslow, Green and Bosh are not a match for those five? We couldn't defend that lineup Wall (26pts), Neal (21pts), Beal (21pts), Porter (13pts) and Dudley (12pts). They shot 50% from the field and from 3pt, 76% FT's. We got outplayed! Same happened against Boston.

As for your LeBron era comparison, it's ludicrous to even suggest that unless you consider Bosh a stiff. The Pacers were a completely different and much better team. LeBron rarely ever had to play the five because we had Chris Bosh to do it plus MUCH better outside shooters. Different circumstances. Otherwise, I agree with you in that in a 7 game series this is not an issue, if only because I doubt those 5 players that closed the game would choke similarly in 4 games against the same team.

I get it, if we won we're probably not having this conversation and maybe Whiteside isn't the answer but it doesn't change the fact that we're starting to head down a slippery slope.

I'm not just upset about our rotations yesterday its more about our rotations going forward. Come playoff time if the opposing team goes small are we just going to bench Whiteside. Are we really going to turn him into a player that can be schemed out of games so easily?

Yesterday we were caught off guard but the idea that Spo is going to let inferior/overmatched teams dictate our own rotations is absolutely ludicrous.

It's definitely something to be aware of but not to get too emotional where it clouds judgement. Hassan said best...

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EthanJSkolnick/status/674316639538671617[/tweet]

This was a back-and-forth, playoff- type of game - ignoring the quality of competition of course - and we failed the close at home with one of our best lineups on the floor. We couldn't make stops, had critical turnovers and we left it for the refs to decide. That's more concerning to me.

[QUIZ]

It's definitely something to be aware of but not to get too emotional where it clouds judgement. Hassan said best...

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EthanJSkolnick/status/674316639538671617[/tweet]

This was a back-and-forth, playoff- type of game - ignoring the quality of competition of course - and we failed the close at home with one of our best lineups on the floor. We couldn't make stops, had critical turnovers and we left it for the refs to decide. That's more concerning to me.

Thats true and seeing Hassan being more positive than yesterday where he basically ditched post game media helps.

I rarely ever get this worked up, especially after one game... Alright on to the next one.

[Chalm Down]

I have no problem with Spo benching Whiteside if he was ineffective vs the Small ball but Spo didn't even try to go big in the 4th. I'm usually not Spo's biggest critic but he put out there a lineup that featured TJ-Jrich-Winslow-McBob-Green. If he could put a lineup that bad out on the floor for even a minute, Why not try to go big by putting Whitside in the game?

Exactly. If they want to bench Whiteside for Bosh, fine. But not using Whiteside at all and putting out the McRoberts+youngin's line-up...it's just weird.

[Bishop45]

I have no problem with Spo benching Whiteside if he was ineffective vs the Small ball but Spo didn't even try to go big in the 4th. I'm usually not Spo's biggest critic but he put out there a lineup that featured TJ-Jrich-Winslow-McBob-Green. If he could put a lineup that bad out on the floor for even a minute, Why not try to go big by putting Whitside in the game?

Exactly. If they want to bench Whiteside for Bosh, fine. But not using Whiteside at all and putting out the McRoberts+youngin's line-up...it's just weird.

there's no way to rationalize it,

[smartcane]

We would get blown out facing a small ball lineup with bob, bosh and whiteside on the floor. not to mention our offense would be terrible.

Actually if done properly that is not the case. From my experience my teams loved when people try to play small against us because that was the only way we could play because we didn't have height. What gave us trouble was versatile bigs. That was because:

Offense:

Instead of running the conventional guard with big pick and roll, run it with the bigs. for example, Bosh and Whiteside or McRoberts and Whiteside. In this set up Bosh or McRoberts can see over who ever is covering them to get the ball to Whiteside when he rolls and since Whiteside is bigger then who ever is covering him all they have to do is throw it up. If they sag to help on the roller Bosh and Mcroberts can shoot and if they miss the shot Whiteside should get the rebound. Also they can pass to any of other three that will basically be spacing the floor if their men helps down low.


Defense:

Typically small teams wants to involve a big in a pick and roll because it gets the big guy out of the paint allowing them to attack. If the big sags (like what Whiteside loves to do) you are suppose to take the shot. If the big comes out you hit the roller because now you have center being guarded by a smaller player. The thing is the big team has the advantage in a small vs big line up if their bigs can jump out on the ball while another big rotates over to help with the roller. That is because the roller is always smaller than who ever is rotating over. So you take away the three by jumping out because know your big can block the shot if they try to shoot and the guard can recover if they drive while also making life more difficult for the roller because with 2 mobile and versatile big helping it will be hard to shoot over them.

I know this has never been tried in the NBA and the level i played at is far inferior to the NBA but Small ball while new to NBA has been around along time at the lower levels of basketball. You can't beat a small team at it's own game when you strength is your bigs. The only teams that gave us trouble where the ones that double down on their size with versatile big that can play like guards. The heat just so happen to have two of the best in the league in Bosh and McRoberts.