OT: Terrorist attacks in Paris

[DarthDiggler69]

Do tell! and can you recommend a good book that would kind of summarize what you are talking about, or recommend an author.

When I was young I didn't really appreciate history, but now I really enjoy reading and educating myself.

Ah gees I have hundreds of books i been reading since I was a kid but a good one to learn condensed history in one day would be Penguin Atlas of World history, 4 small books but lots lots of history there. Focuses on history of Europe, Middle East mostly, Its about the history of empires and civilizations, very quick history with nice maps. Starts from 10000 BC to today, a very quick reference packed with important details

Its a set of four but this one is my favorite, from the end of the Roman Empire till the end of the Byzantine Empire
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/the-new-penguin-atlas-of-medieval-history-colin-mcevedy/1110858327/2672017864050?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Professional_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP4747&k_clickid=3x4747

[waffle]

Could be a sleeper cell.
Could be a hybrid act.

Either way there is the whole unholy nexus of radicaliation in Saudi / a bride who ALREADY knew how to use tactical weapons and build bombs / Pakistan based friends who are on the radicals being watched by FBI.

I cant ignore this anymore - its militant Islam. Its become a part of Islam now - this is precisely my point when I started this thread. The problem is IN Islam. The solution should ALSO come from WITHIN Islam.

Yup, I made the same point several times. Force is not going to resolve this/defeat isis. It's an issue of FAITH, misplaced or not. All aspects of their life, from whom they marry to whom they are allowed to converse with to who they attack are based on their warped version of Islam. They are not just going to say "geez, you are right. You are tougher than us and we are prepared to give up!" Not going to happen.

These knuckleheads are being churned out almost as an industry. We need to short circuit that process. The only tool that is likely to work is an Islamic Based Intervention. Islam needs to police Islam THEOLOGICALLY.

We are the enemy, both on the battlefield but more importantly ideologically. We cannot change their POV. We are more likely to just create more holy warriors.

[waffle]

Someone on the newshour said it last night, a basic tenet of war is don't do what your enemy wants. What ISIS wants is US on the battlefield. We are their primary target. We most directly oppose their world view. France would be a close 2nd.....

I also think the whole dying for your faith is a huge plus is troubling. Indoctrinating youth that this is both expected of them and a huge BOON (heck, their families get paid and the afterlife is fabulous) is very sad

[DarthDiggler69]

This is a very radical idea and this assumes ISIS is waiting for the apocalypse and plays into their end of times revelation. How about we send a large force of 200-500k soldiers and just completely destroy the Caliphate, wait and let them see if Isa (The muslim Jesus) comes down to save them, judge and send all the Christians and Jews to hell like it is told in their books.

Once they realize Jesus won't come down to save them they may become demoralized and lose faith and hopefully see the light.

Give them what they want and when it doesnt happen their hopes will be crushed, but thats assuming their Jesus doesn't come down for them and send us infidels to hell lol

[musiqsoulchild]

This is a very radical idea and this assumes ISIS is waiting for the apocalypse and plays into their end of times revelation. How about we send a large force of 200-500k soldiers and just completely destroy the Caliphate, wait and let them see if Isa (The muslim Jesus) comes down to save them, judge and send all the Christians and Jews to hell like it is told in their books.

Once they realize Jesus won't come down to save them they may become demoralized and lose faith and hopefully see the light.

Give them what they want and when it doesnt happen their hopes will be crushed, but thats assuming their Jesus doesn't come down for them and send us infidels to hell lol

That ACTUALLY makes it a holy war.

Even relatively benign Muslim majority countries like Bangladesh, Indoneasia and Malaysia will then have to join in criticizing the West.

That's a bad, bad thing.

There is actually a movement afloat right now that's getting great government backing in Indonesia, India and parts of UK - to teach kids what the real Islamic State is and what the real Islam is.

That's how you beat ISIS. It's slow, methodical and generational warfare achieved through education and vocal participation. But it will wipe out the nonsense once and for all.

[Ben]

Someone on the newshour said it last night, a basic tenet of war is don't do what your enemy wants. What ISIS wants is US on the battlefield. We are their primary target. We most directly oppose their world view. France would be a close 2nd.....

I also think the whole dying for your faith is a huge plus is troubling. Indoctrinating youth that this is both expected of them and a huge BOON (heck, their families get paid and the afterlife is fabulous) is very sad

Of course you're exactly right. All of this comes straight from Abu Bakr Naji's The Management of Savagery (2004), which bears a strong resemblance to Machiavelli (if Machiavelli's ultimate goal had been a theocratic caliphate, which it decidedly was not).
People can read about it here:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/07/isil-management-savagery-150705060914471.html

Or can read the actual text here.

This text is now being taught in college syllabi; it's no hoax. ISIL wants to provoke the US and other great powers into harsh reactions, with the purpose of recruiting more sympathy and jihadists and winning a long-term battle of attrition.

[DarthDiggler69]

That ACTUALLY makes it a holy war.

Even relatively benign Muslim majority countries like Bangladesh, Indoneasia and Malaysia will then have to join in criticizing the West.

That's a bad, bad thing.

There is actually a movement afloat right now that's getting great government backing in Indonesia, India and parts of UK - to teach kids what the real Islamic State is and what the real Islam is.

That's how you beat ISIS. It's slow, methodical and generational warfare achieved through education and vocal participation. But it will wipe out the nonsense once and for all.

Yeah thats why its a radical idea lol. But the main point is if we wage holy war (Russia already said they were) if its aa false religion then Jesus isnt going to come down to save ISIS so that would devastate their faith in their Islam. Im actually with you on the change of focus with the teachings but that causes lots of problems which I will point out at the end.

Imo I don't want those kids in Indonesia, Malaysia and India to know what real Islam is because from I know in the Qur'an and Hadiths is ISIS is pretty close to Islam back in Mohammed's day. And I hate quoting the Qur'an but the Jihadists justify themselves because lines like this cancel out the peaceful verses (many earlier teachings) in the Qur'an for the later teachings (Offensive Jihad):

2:106 - "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"

Which practically means the later verses (lots of focus on offensive jihad) cancel out the earlier verses (peace, defensive jihad), so Islam has many problems trying to fit in with everyone else. They need to find ways to do it without changing their Allah's words like many are guilty of.

[bentheredengthat]

Do tell! and can you recommend a good book that would kind of summarize what you are talking about, or recommend an author.

When I was young I didn't really appreciate history, but now I really enjoy reading and educating myself.

Ah gees I have hundreds of books i been reading since I was a kid but a good one to learn condensed history in one day would be Penguin Atlas of World history, 4 small books but lots lots of history there. Focuses on history of Europe, Middle East mostly, Its about the history of empires and civilizations, very quick history with nice maps. Starts from 10000 BC to today, a very quick reference packed with important details

Its a set of four but this one is my favorite, from the end of the Roman Empire till the end of the Byzantine Empire
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/the-new-penguin-atlas-of-medieval-history-colin-mcevedy/1110858327/2672017864050?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Professional_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP4747&k_clickid=3x4747

thanks!

[bentheredengthat]

Yeah thats why its a radical idea lol. But the main point is if we wage holy war (Russia already said they were) if its aa false religion then Jesus isnt going to come down to save ISIS so that would devastate their faith in their Islam.

Nah, they would just claim that they misinterpreted the signs or the text & start all over.

Believe me I was raised in a religion that loves to associate whatever current events are unfolding at the time to be clear signs of the impending "end of time" prophecy De jour. I mean when the Russians were in first in Afghanistan (70's, 80's ?) they were saying the same things they are saying today. Russian and (fill in the blank country in the ME) are going to amass troops and wipe out Israel bringing on the apocalypse or whatever. I'm old enough now to have heard a new version of this every 10 years for almost half a century.

Imo I don't want those kids in Indonesia, Malaysia and India to know what real Islam is because from I know in the Qur'an and Hadiths is ISIS is pretty close to Islam back in Mohammed's day. And I hate quoting the Qur'an but the Jihadists justify themselves because lines like this cancel out the peaceful verses (many earlier teachings) in the Qur'an for the later teachings (Offensive Jihad):

2:106 - "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"

Which practically means the later verses (lots of focus on offensive jihad) cancel out the earlier verses (peace, defensive jihad), so Islam has many problems trying to fit in with everyone else. They need to find ways to do it without changing their Allah's words like many are guilty of.

That's the ironic thing about religion. Religious leaders and religious texts place themselves as the ultimate unwavering law that followers should use to guide the way they live.

But if you observe the religions over the ages you can see them morph to fit the times in whatever way it is practical to the leaders at that point in history.

I mean can you imagine how popular the catholic church would be today if it didn't morph it's teachings and actions from the dark ages?

[bentheredengthat]

It's slow, methodical and generational warfare achieved through education and vocal participation. But it will wipe out the nonsense once and for all.

Amen!

[DarthDiggler69]

That's the ironic thing about religion. Religious leaders and religious texts place themselves as the ultimate unwavering law that followers should use to guide the way they live.

But if you observe the religions over the ages you can see them morph to fit the times in whatever way it is practical to the leaders at that point in history.

I mean can you imagine how popular the catholic church would be today if it didn't morph it's teachings and actions from the dark ages?

I'm not comparing church/christians to Mosque/Muslims, I was comparing teachings in the Gospels to commands by Allah in the Quran. i stay away from talks about Churches/Mosques/Followers because they just muddy up the religion, if you want a true debate or criticize a religion you go straight to the horses mouth aka Bible or Qur'an/Hadiths

[DarthDiggler69]

So what you think of the POTUS speech?
I think its good he finally said the Fort Hood shooting was terrorism. Also said the terror attacks was from an ideology in Islam. Thats a start. Only a little focus on gun control (in regards to the no-fly list) and a little immigration

No ground troops, although its tempting to send troops to destroy them it also makes sense not to incite more jihadists and the region. But waiting and bombing means more terror attacks are likely and slowed talks on the Turkey-Russia/Iran/Syria side conflict. I doubt he will be able to form a coalition among Muslim countries, too much politics involved with those states.

So without ground troops and no Arab coalition, this conflict is going to take a very long time unless Assad's army defeats them before the Coalition does.

[bentheredengthat]

That's the ironic thing about religion. Religious leaders and religious texts place themselves as the ultimate unwavering law that followers should use to guide the way they live.

But if you observe the religions over the ages you can see them morph to fit the times in whatever way it is practical to the leaders at that point in history.

I mean can you imagine how popular the catholic church would be today if it didn't morph it's teachings and actions from the dark ages?

I'm not comparing church/christians to Mosque/Muslims, I was comparing teachings in the Gospels to commands by Allah in the Quran. i stay away from talks about Churches/Mosques/Followers because they just muddy up the religion, if you want a true debate or criticize a religion you go straight to the horses mouth aka Bible or Qur'an/Hadiths

Good point. But invariably the teachings are greatly influenced by translations by the churches and their leaders - and those seem to conveniently change over time.

EDIT: I mean how many followers of a religion actually read the holy texts and make up their own minds anyways. Only a devout few. I would bet the vast majority just glean their believes by whatever their religious leaders teach anyways.

I admit I don't know anything about the Quran.

[bentheredengthat]

Donald Trump's brilliant plan too radical to talk about?

Or just too asinine?

[TimRobbins]

Donald Trump's brilliant plan too radical to talk about?

Or just too asinine?

There's no point to talk about him. He's just a clown who says provocative BS to get attention.

[TimRobbins]

And just as expected, here comes the blow-back: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/06/marine-le-pens-national-front-set-for-historic-result-in-poll.html

[samwana]

Not sure engaged is the same thing as inspired. I think we are going to have to do something different than we are, whether that is politically, diplomatically, or military, or most likely, some combination, in order to break the stalemate situation that Syria is in. A stalemate with many dying and millions more being displaced the longer it goes on. But with a year left in office, I think Obama is content to just run the clock out.

I'd say that day can't come soon enough, but given the possible replacements, we may actually miss the do-nothing president.

alright, i'm catching on to the agenda now

what are you suggesting the next president should do?

Depends on what way you want to go. If you want to appease the ME, stop with supporting IS and cut them of the moneystream and stop weapon export in the entire ME. Than try to get the opposition to talk to each other and don't fight each other, let them make peace with each other. They will be more ready to talk and make peace than the mainstream media will let us know.

If you want war, because it saves the country from bankruptcy, go ahead and bomb the whole ME back to the middle ages. Go ahead and send ground troups for the hell of it. Expect a lot more casualties and expect a lot of groups motivated and ready to batlle US troups, because thats just what IS wants, finally fight US/NATO troups. It's what will happen eventually, I'm pretty sure of that, because war makes rich people even richer.

The person Obama is IMO would want nothing more than appease the region. The president on the other hand, doesn't have any saying in what to do.

[SHO'NUFF]

[TimRobbins]

Than try to get the opposition to talk to each other and don't fight each other, let them make peace with each other.

And why do you think that people that have been fighting each-other 1,000 years before the US we created want to make peace?

[bentheredengthat]

That gif is way too subtle for Donald J. Trump