Is KCP another Courtney Lee? Is that OK?

[edmunder_prc]

New to the forum, but a very long time lurker (10 years?).

I don't have a lot of anaylsis but I remember when Lee was on the Magic and they were playing well. SVG was there and he seems like a similar player, with similar low offensive production, similar inability to put the ball on the floor and do anything productive with it most of the time and similar above average defense (without stellar obvious defensive stats like steals/blocks). Plus he has played his career with a KCP like place on the team, meaning 4th or 5th offensive role.

I bring this up because C. Lee is an UFA next year. He has made 5-6 million a year for the last 4 years on the Celtics and now in the Grizzles for the last 3 years. Does KCP deserve more or should we go for a player like C. Lee.

Lets go to the stats:

KCP http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2581018/kentavious-caldwell-pope

Last year and this year, offensively KCP isn't very good.

Last year: 12 shots a game, .401. 5.4 for 3-pointers, .345. A few rebounds, an assist, a steal a game.
This year: 12 shots a game, .401. 4.4 for 3-pointers, .292. A few rebounds, an assist, a steal and a half a game.

Not much improvement, though eye ball test he puts the ball on the floor much more frequently. Also eye-ball he has horrendous shooting nights that I don't remember the previous two years, I think because he wasn't given nearly the green like this year. I don't see much improvement even with a better PG in Jackson from the last two years.

Another thing, very few FTA each year, just doesn't go to the rim strong very often (though this year some highlight dunks).


How about Courtney Lee: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3445/courtney-lee

One thing that's striking about Lee is that he seems to be aware of his game or his lack of offensive skill. Something that KCP hasn't quite recognized yet.

9 years in the league and his stats are nearly the same every year.

Year one with the Magic: 7 shots a game .450. 2.6 3-pointers, .404. A couple rebounds, an assist, a steal a game.

Similar to KCP very few FTs over the 9 years, just 1.5 FTA over the 9 year career.

Already looking good, was in a solid offense with a clear role. Probably 5th option that year behind Nelson, Turk, Lewis and Howard.

If you look at his stats and I suggest you do, what you see is 7,8,9 shots a game with a .450 average over the years. Very clear role, especially on the Grizzlies team and from what I remember on the Magic team.


Im of the opinion that KCP is bad for our team. In fact, very bad. On this team there is a huge need for shooting, shot creation and attacking the rim. KCP gives none of those. For our bench, we also need those same things. He is not a good fit for our team, especially for the 10 million people are talking about.

I hope my first post is alright and adds some discussion.

[edmunder_prc]

Another reason I bring it up now. We get to see C. Lee and KCP play each other tomorrow.

[Arp590]

Courtney Lee is not anywhere near the defensive player that KCP is.
It's way too early to say he's not a good fit. How many players are we going to give up on/trade who go on to producing for other teams?
Khris Middleton? I would love to still have him, he would be perfect for this team.

This team desperately needs a backup SG that can take some minutes away from KCP, that and having to guard the opposing teams best player every night.. i'm sure he is exhausted and it is clearly affecting his shot.
Jennings should help a little bit.

Good post though, welcome to the board.

[dVs33]

Good first post.

I don't think KCP is bad for the team. I think he has a lot of room to improve, but he does have some positives now.
He's the only reliable defensive player we have and his ball handling has improved.
The problem he has is consistency. It's not like he's a hopeless shooter, he's just so streaky. I don't know what the fix for that is.
I wouldn't write him off completely just yet. There's still a ways to go before we see what he's ceiling is, so i'm going to wait and see with him.
As far as his money, everyone is getting paid too much now IMO, so I have no idea what he's truly worth lol

[Snakebites]

If KCP can put up the efficiency numbers that Lee did last year, I'd be very very happy.

Expectations for him offensively are hades-low by now. Kid can't shoot.

I would absolutely love him as a backup, but unless we suddenly become a high octane team with a strong crew of really effective scorers all around him, we aren't a good enough team to really be able to afford to have a shooting guard who can't shoot in the starting lineup. He's just too poor offensively. He shoots a low percentage and doesn't make up for it by getting to the line or hitting threes at a respectable clip. He's actually taken a step backward in that second regard.

[dVs33]

Courtney Lee is not anywhere near the defensive player that KCP is.
It's way too early to say he's not a good fit. How many players are we going to give up on/trade who go on to producing for other teams?
Khris Middleton? I would love to still have him, he would be perfect for this team.

This team desperately needs a backup SG that can take some minutes away from KCP, that and having to guard the opposing teams best player every night.. i'm sure he is exhausted and it is clearly affecting his shot.
Jennings should help a little bit.

Good post though, welcome to the board.

The bold part is very true.
Having to guard the best player has to take it out on you. If we had another solid perimeter defender (maybe Stanley in time) KCP wouldn't have to take on so much of the work load defensively.

[DBC10]

KCP is our de facto perimeter houndog, whether it is the opposing team's best PG or SG. Stan fully trusts him to defend our perimeter since we all know Reggie is an average defender at his very best.

Having said that, yes, his offense has been absolutely low so far. I'm glad he's taking steps to get to the line more instead of mindlessly jacking it up and his FT rate has increased with his FT% being better too. I feel like we're not necessarily an SG away for a good/consistent team, but a decent backup SG away and having a starter at the 3 or 4 that can take ball pressure off Reggie. Someone like a point forward like Hedo Turkoglu type player. That was my Stan's offense was so great in his ORL days, because he had two types of ways to attack you from the perimeter since he had two guys that can initiate playmaking or knock down shots off a screen.

[edmunder_prc]

Good first post.

I don't think KCP is bad for the team. I think he has a lot of room to improve, but he does have some positives now.
He's the only reliable defensive player we have and his ball handling has improved.
The problem he has is consistency. It's not like he's a hopeless shooter, he's just so streaky. I don't know what the fix for that is.
I wouldn't write him off completely just yet. There's still a ways to go before we see what he's ceiling is, so i'm going to wait and see with him.
As far as his money, everyone is getting paid too much now IMO, so I have no idea what he's truly worth lol

1 - I think right now he's not good for the team, but hes all the team has. No other option for playing a lot of minutes at the 2. But soon he needs another contract, then what. Is he good for the team at 10 million a year when C. Lee is 5 million a year, knows his role and shoots much better?

2 - Hes not a hopeless shooter, but hes close. He must be bottom 2-3 starting SG in the league for shooting. I would much rather have a 25 year old Tony Allen than KCP.

3 - The money is the question. If he takes bottom 2-3 SG money, which may be bench money, on a long term contract - which means it would be moveable since it would be a good contract for the team - then fantastic. If he wants a big contract since the cap will explode, then its laughable. Paying a SG that can't shoot, pass, drive and has 1-9 shooting nights every couple weeks is crazy.

[edmunder_prc]

KCP is our de facto perimeter houndog, whether it is the opposing team's best PG or SG. Stan fully trusts him to defend our perimeter since we all know Reggie is an average defender at his very best.

Having said that, yes, his offense has been absolutely low so far. I'm glad he's taking steps to get to the line more instead of mindlessly jacking it up and his FT rate has increased with his FT% being better too. I feel like we're not necessarily an SG away for a good/consistent team, but a decent backup SG away and having a starter at the 3 or 4 that can take ball pressure off Reggie. Someone like a point forward like Hedo Turkoglu type player. That was my Stan's offense was so great in his ORL days, because he had two types of ways to attack you from the perimeter since he had two guys that can initiate playmaking or knock down shots off a screen.

Couldn't we draft another plus defender with a non-lotto pick? I mean, he can't shoot or pass. So if we just scouted for a SG with length and speed (KCP is FAST) but couldn't shoot to play 20 minutes a night, I think that would be easy enough. Then its 4 more years of rookie cap for that player on the team.

[edmunder_prc]

I think my original post didn't address it clearly enough: would you rather have C. Lee for 5 million a year or KCP on a new contract?

[Spider156]

KCP will probably get 8-10 million a year. That's not bad. He won't command much from other teams. The guy can still play. Every now and then he has big nights where he's the reason we win and then there are nights where he can't shoot the ball and stops the ball from moving from fear that he'll turn it over. I like KCP. He'll be alright. He wouldn't be a good sixth man either. I'd peg him in to have a Thabo Sefolosha role.

With that said, I'd sign Courtney Lee to come off the bench for us too

I'm really interested to see what SVG signs KCP for. This is a tell tale of the sort of money he'll be giving out in the future. I'm happy with Reggie's contract. I think he deserves it. We wouldn't be 12-10 without him so far this season and without a backup PG? That's pretty good. KCP is nowhere close to that.

I expect KCP's defense might come down after this season unless we keep winning. That's just how it goes in the NBA.

[coordinator0]

You're probably not getting Courtney Lee for $5 million a year either. He's a free agent after this season and with the cap going up he will get a nice deal. Nothing huge, but still around $8 million a year. I'll gladly bet on Caldwell-Pope developing his offense a bit more (he's already a superior defender) for a little more money and someone who's almost seven and a half years younger. No contest.

[edmunder_prc]

Thabo Sefolosha is a good reference for KCP. He has made 4 million the last 3 years.

[coordinator0]

Thabo is also 31 and doesn't have any room for development left (like Lee). That's a key point. His deal would be bigger under the vastly expanding cap too.

[El Chivo]

Lee better spot-up shooter.

KCP better defender by far and a little bit better from the dribble.

[Arp590]

Thabo Sefolosha is a good reference for KCP. He has made 4 million the last 3 years.

Yeah but I mean KCP is 22, there's a big difference.
There is a lot of time to improve still.
His FT% made a huge jump so far this year, I feel like his legs just aren't under him for his 3 pointer. He actually was pretty decent at shooting in preseason, got to feel he's playing too many minutes now.

I'm fine with around 8mil. Realistically what teams are going to try to sign him away from us? I don't think a SG that can't shoot consistently is going to garner much attention.

[Pugz]

i like both players but neither helps us offensively. if kcp expects anything more than $8M a year, i think we should let him walk. i like what he does on defense but we shouldnt let that stop us from trying to find a superior offensive player. Maybe kcp would be better suited coming off of the bench if we can upgrade his position.

[coordinator0]

Thabo Sefolosha is a good reference for KCP. He has made 4 million the last 3 years.

Yeah but I mean KCP is 22, there's a big difference.
There is a lot of time to improve still.
His FT% made a huge jump so far this year, I feel like his legs just aren't under him for his 3 pointer. He actually was pretty decent at shooting in preseason, got to feel he's playing too many minutes now.

I'm fine with around 8mil. Realistically what teams are going to try to sign him away from us? I don't think a SG that can't shoot consistently is going to garner much attention.

I think it's a combination of minutes and poor shot selection. Caldwell-Pope pulls up and makes some pretty bad decisions at times, or passes up a good shot to drive it into defenders. That should get better with time though (so will the minutes) and with his form there's enough to bet on with him.

[edmunder_prc]

Thabo Sefolosha is a good reference for KCP. He has made 4 million the last 3 years.[/quote
Yeah but I mean KCP is 22, there's a big difference.
There is a lot of time to improve still.
His FT% made a huge jump so far this year, I feel like his legs just aren't under him for his 3 pointer. He actually was pretty decent at shooting in preseason, got to feel he's playing too many minutes now.

I'm fine with around 8mil. Realistically what teams are going to try to sign him away from us? I don't think a SG that can't shoot consistently is going to garner much attention.

Look at the good teams in the league, Warriors, Spurs, Cavs. Would they accept KCP on their team? Could they win with him on their team? Does KCP need generational talents next to him to win?

I don't think the Pistons should be trying to bring back guys who make it harder for us to win. Right now, of course, we don't have anything else. As others have said, KCP could also be tired from playing too much.

Big picture: If we are a 4 out team with Drummond playing he-man, having a player like KCP on the team is a terrible fit, money or not. If he takes 5-6 million a year to come off the bench and be the 3-4 option, but off the bench, great. If he wants starter money its a terrible idea. He is not a starter for a 4 out team, unless he is making absolutely peanuts and he plays 20-25 minutes a game playing the best defense of his life every night. That way the Pistons can pay someone like Courtney Lee to play the other minutes.

[El Chivo]

so we have to dump everyone but Drummond because we don't have Curry, Leonard and LeBron... interesting.

the new cap 8 millions are more or less a MLE...