This team is damn good. Minus the bench. Brain busting stats inside.

zeebneeb · Post #1 » by **zeebneeb** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:03 pm

In game threads lately I've been reading a lot of complaining about the team and certain players and some of it just makes me scratch my head. This team, the starters specifically, is among the best in the league. All the stats are there plain and simple. There seems to be a lot of "man if drummond" "seriously if Reggie jackson.."

Guess what folks, it's not the starters creating problems it is soley, 100% unequivocally the bench on this team, period. There is no argument to be had nor can it be made to fit any agenda a poster here my have if they hate a certain player for no reason.

Here are some stats for both the starters and the bench and where they rank in the league.

DETROIT PISTONS 2015/2016 STARTERS

1.)PPG #2 76.0 (#1 G.S. 81.6 #3 RAPS 74.8)
2.)+/- #4 +5.6 (#1 G.S. +10.4 #2 S.S. +7.0 #3 OKC +6.1 #5 CAVS +4.2
3.)RPG #1 33.8 (#2 H.R. 31.9 #3 B.N. 31.1 #4 OKC 30.3)
4.)FG% #14 44.6 (#1 G.S. 49.9 #13 RAPS 45.0)
5.)FTA #4 19.8 (#1 H.R. 22.9 #2 CLIP 22.2 #3 RAPS 21.0 #5 HEAT 17.7)
6.)STL #4 6.4 #1 H.R. 7.3 #5 AT 6.1

ADVANCED STATS

1.)OFFRTG #11 104.0
2.)DEFRTG #2 96.7 (#1 SPURS 93.3)
3.)NETRTG #4 7.3 (#1 G.S. 17.9 #2 SPURS 12.1 #3 OKC 11.1 #5 CAVS 7.1

2015/2016 DETROIT PISTONS BENCH

1.)PPG #30 23.2
2.)+/- #30 -3.7
3.)RPG #27 13.5
4.)FG% #30 36.4
5.)FTA #30 4.3
6.)STL #30 2.1

ADVANCED STATS

1.)OFFRTG #30 90.7
2.)DEFRTG #25 104.3
3.)NETRTG #30 -13.7 (#29 LAKE -9.1!!!)

These stats are absolutely absurd and show just a bad this Pistons bench is. It's not just a factor in how the team plays, or something that may need to be adjusted, it's the reason the Pistons are not sitting on top of the East right now plain and simple.

Now do the starters have some problems? Of course but the overwhelming majority of the problems this team has is resting squarely on the bench.

The starters virtually play the most mpg in the league almost tied with Houston at 32.7mpg (H.S.32.8) #3 are the RAPS at 1.5mpg less! The starters are getting worn down and the heavy workload and constant digging out of holes is back breaking work night in and night out. If the bench produced games like last night which would place the just in the middle of the pack! these Detroit Pistons would not be 14-11 but even at a a conservative estimate of five games cost by the bench 19-6. (By my figuring it's 7 games the bench has cost us completely)

Now what in my mind is the craziest stat of them all.

The bench has been dragging this team down and destroying leads while playing the fewest minutes in the league at 15.7mpg.

That is just insanity and also goes to show just how damn good the starters are, and how heavy their workload had been.

Todd3 · Post #2 » by **Todd3** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:45 pm

yeah our bench is awful, but good news is Jennings is going to make a big difference soon. Also some guys have been playing a little better of late. Over the last 11 games Blake is actually 39% from 3 (which is his career avg) which makes me think the first 14 games was just a fluke and we are going to get the real Blake from now on. And at 6-3 and 39% 3pt, he will be able to play some backup SG with Jennings, so we can keep his much needed 3pt shooting in the rotation. Johnson is also 38% the last 11.

I really think Baynes is the biggest problem. When he plays good the bench seems to play good, and when he is crap the bench is crap. In a 4-1 system, if the C can't dominate the paint by himself it really makes it hard to play that way successfully. Stan should consider using a 2 big system with that group if Baynes can't do it himself consistently. Playing him at PF with Anthony at C could be something to explore.

Arp590 · Post #3 » by **Arp590** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:15 pm

Todd3 wrote:Stan should consider using a 2 big system with that group if Baynes can't do it himself consistently. Playing him at PF with Anthony at C could be something to explore.

I actually suggested that a while ago, I think that's a great idea. Will certainly help our defense.

DBC10 · Post #4 » by **DBC10** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:13 pm

Yep, eye tests showed me that the bench is the first and foremost our primary problem for our inconsistent play. And it shows on our win and loss column.

If we had decent shooters and an actually decent bench bigmen, we may get somewhere. Having Meeks back to put some more shooting dynamics may make our bench flow better too.

Liqourish · Post #5 » by **Liqourish** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:16 pm

Zeeb has been absolutely right all season and offseason thus far. Our starters aren't lazy, dogging it, pouting, etc. They are TIRED!! They need some rest but when we go to the bench, our lead evaporates and SVG is forced to bring them back onto the court. KCP is averaging almost 37 mpg. Andre's numbers on the second night of back to backs are drastically lowered. That's not pouting, that's fatigue. Getting Jennings back, and having Stanley and Tolliver playing alright will help, but we still need a better C and a shooter off the bench that can rest KCP. They are going to be worn down by the All-Star break at the pace they are going. And all the road games and back to backs the league scheduled aren't helping.

I actually wouldn't mind a trade for a C to supplement Baynes. He has good moments, but SVG doesn't trust him and it's wearing on the team overall.

DetroitSho · Post #6 » by **DetroitSho** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:51 pm

Liqourish wrote:Zeeb has been absolutely right all season and offseason thus far. Our starters aren't lazy, dogging it, pouting, etc. They are TIRED!! They need some rest but when we go to the bench, our lead evaporates and SVG is forced to bring them back onto the court. KCP is averaging almost 37 mpg. Andre's numbers on the second night of back to backs are drastically lowered. That's not pouting, that's fatigue. Getting Jennings back, and having Stanley and Tolliver playing alright will help, but we still need a better C and a shooter off the bench that can rest KCP. They are going to be worn down by the All-Star break at the pace they are going. And all the road games and back to backs the league scheduled aren't helping.

I actually wouldn't mind a trade for a C to supplement Baynes. He has good moments, but SVG doesn't trust him and it's wearing on the team overall.

I agree with this post and pretty much said as much in the game thread yesterday to combat the ridiculousness of the "Dre's lazy" and "Dre's pouting" posts. One thing I will disagree with is the Baynes situation. To me, Baynes is Kwame Brown with less athleticism and a decent jumper. I think his ability to hit a 12 footer gets confused with him being a better offensive player than he is. He shouldn't be given so many post up opportunities because he's terrible at converting and finishing in general. I think he needs to be used strictly as a pick n pop option while Morris is the post up option with that 2nd unit.

Moses ShamMoses · Post #7 » by **Moses ShamMoses** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:56 pm

Liqourish wrote:Zeeb has been absolutely right all season and offseason thus far. Our starters aren't lazy, dogging it, pouting, etc. They are TIRED!! They need some rest but when we go to the bench, our lead evaporates and SVG is forced to bring them back onto the court. KCP is averaging almost 37 mpg. Andre's numbers on the second night of back to backs are drastically lowered. That's not pouting, that's fatigue. Getting Jennings back, and having Stanley and Tolliver playing alright will help, but we still need a better C and a shooter off the bench that can rest KCP. They are going to be worn down by the All-Star break at the pace they are going. And all the road games and back to backs the league scheduled aren't helping.

I actually wouldn't mind a trade for a C to supplement Baynes. He has good moments, but SVG doesn't trust him and it's wearing on the team overall.

I second this. I really want to like Baynes considering all the money he got in the off season but he just isn't all that effective. He isn't a good rebounder, doesn't block shots, isn't athletic at all...all he really does decently is set screens and play hard man to man defense. He was supposed to be this great free throw shooter as well but is under 70% so far this year. Can we get a refund????

bstein14 · Post #8 » by **bstein14** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:11 pm

Well, Dre will likely get plenty of rest tomorrow when the Clips go HAM on the HACK A DRE.... I would bet Andre only plays 26-28 minutes tomorrow as he'll have to sit out a bunch of the time period when the Pistons are in the bonus.

Spider156 · Post #9 » by **Spider156** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:20 pm

Maybe we should think of it this way. The starters are so productive because they know the bench is that bad. They're getting more minutes and therefore look better. Thing is we don't even need defense on our bench. I know they can defend. We need scoring. Jennings can score. I don't care if he tries on defense. That ball will ultimately go in or out. But the bench's offense is horrendous. If the bench can more consistently score the ball, they wouldn't blow leads as much as they have and it'll give the starters maybe 2 mins extra rest and that goes a long way. It adds up. I just hope Jennings doesn't blow some games too from rust. He'll likely need some games to get back into rhythm. We can't really judge this team fully until at least January. But for now, we are what our record says we are minus Barnes's halfcourt shot smh

joedumars1 · Post #10 » by **joedumars1** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:47 pm

Do people really think Baynes could play next to dre? The dude is so slow. I guess Dre could guard the PF, but Baynes isn't a rim protector. I'm lost lol

zeebneeb · Post #11 » by **zeebneeb** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:54 pm

I feel really confident in that Baynes needs a facilitator on the floor with him to make him shine. Jennings will provide this. I'm not sure about Baynes playing with Anthony though. Couldn't hurt to try that's for sure. The bench couldn't get any worse then the worst.

mattao313 · Post #12 » by **mattao313** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:02 am

zeebneeb wrote:I feel really confident in that Baynes needs a facilitator on the floor with him to make him shine. Jennings will provide this. I'm not sure about Baynes playing with Anthony though. Couldn't hurt to try that's for sure. The bench couldn't get any worse then the worst.

The bench needs a pnr threat every coach in the league knows Blake isn't looking to score. Jennings is perfect but coming of a potential career ender who knows.

ComboGuardCity · Post #13 » by **ComboGuardCity** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:08 am

bstein14 wrote:Well, Dre will likely get plenty of rest tomorrow when the Clips go HAM on the HACK A DRE.... I would bet Andre only plays 26-28 minutes tomorrow as he'll have to sit out a bunch of the time period when the Pistons are in the bonus.

They have Jordan

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DetroitSho · Post #14 » by **DetroitSho** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:11 am

Anybody thinking Baynes can be on the court with either Dre or Anthony need to go back and re-watch the Phoenix game and see how smaller/quicker players present problems for our centers. This again goes back to what I said before and that people see he has a decent jumper and considers his offense to be greater than what it is. There's no way Baynes can be on the floor as a PF.

Todd3 · Post #15 » by **Todd3** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:23 am

DetroitSho wrote:Anybody thinking Baynes can be on the court with either Dre or Anthony need to go back and re-watch the Phoenix game and see how smaller/quicker players present problems for our centers. This again goes back to what I said before and that people see he has a decent jumper and considers his offense to be greater than what it is. There's no way Baynes can be on the floor as a PF.

The reality is he shouldn't be on the court at all. He has no decent jumper. Only reason trying him at PF might work is because it would get Anthony on the court who can actually defend the paint at the C position, and Stan is unlikely to bench Baynes outright this early (even though he should). In other words putting him at PF isn't to take advantage of anything he does well, rather to hide him more, as all the things he does poor might be less exposed there. Basically just use him as an extra dirty work guy up front, instead of the main and only one.

Todd3 · Post #16 » by **Todd3** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:36 am

joedumars1 wrote:Do people really think Baynes could play next to dre? The dude is so slow. I guess Dre could guard the PF, but Baynes isn't a rim protector. I'm lost lol

We're talking about Baynes playing next to Anthony on the 2nd unit, not Dre, because Baynes isn't a rim protector like you said but Anthony is. Baynes is decent as a man defender though and can guard midrange jumpshooters. So I think it could make that unit better defensively as long as he doesnt have to guard stretch 4s. Anthony should be our full-time backup C and then alternate between Baynes/Tolliver at PF depending on matchups. Anthony's rim protection could help that unit hold leads better, instead of giving up 10-0 runs in 40 seconds like they are now. I say if we aren't going to use his skills when needed, why did we resign him?

Spider156 · Post #17 » by **Spider156** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:42 am

Todd3 wrote:
joedumars1 wrote:Do people really think Baynes could play next to dre? The dude is so slow. I guess Dre could guard the PF, but Baynes isn't a rim protector. I'm lost lol

We're talking about Baynes playing next to Anthony on the 2nd unit, not Dre, because Baynes isn't a rim protector like you said but Anthony is. Baynes is decent as a man defender though and can guard midrange jumpshooters. So I think it could make that unit better defensively as long as he doesnt have to guard stretch 4s. Anthony should be our full-time backup C and then alternate between Baynes/Tolliver at PF depending on matchups. Anthony's rim protection could help that unit hold leads better, instead of giving up 10-0 runs in 40 seconds like they are now. I say if we aren't going to use his skills when needed, why did we resign him?

Problem with that is it's our offense that needs help on the second unit. I think Baynes isn't that bad at defending. His center competition isn't that hard. It's the offense that the second unit focuses on which hurts them defensively. I'm ok with the second unit giving up points if they can score. But they can't do either one! So you need some sort of consistency. Anthony isn't going to help in that department. Jennings will.

Blkbrd671 · Post #18 » by **Blkbrd671** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:49 am

Liqourish wrote:Zeeb has been absolutely right all season and offseason thus far. Our starters aren't lazy, dogging it, pouting, etc. They are TIRED!! They need some rest but when we go to the bench, our lead evaporates and SVG is forced to bring them back onto the court. KCP is averaging almost 37 mpg. Andre's numbers on the second night of back to backs are drastically lowered. That's not pouting, that's fatigue. Getting Jennings back, and having Stanley and Tolliver playing alright will help, but we still need a better C and a shooter off the bench that can rest KCP. They are going to be worn down by the All-Star break at the pace they are going. And all the road games and back to backs the league scheduled aren't helping.

I actually wouldn't mind a trade for a C to supplement Baynes. He has good moments, but SVG doesn't trust him and it's wearing on the team overall.

truth, our biggest problem with our bench is defensively. We have no anchor at the point of attack or at the rim. Jennings should help offensively but i don't think Baynes is a long term solution defensively and stone hands have cost us points in key moments. Those sort of things you can't develop.

DetroitSho · Post #19 » by **DetroitSho** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:03 am

Todd3 wrote:
DetroitSho wrote:Anybody thinking Baynes can be on the court with either Dre or Anthony need to go back and re-watch the Phoenix game and see how smaller/quicker players present problems for our centers. This again goes back to what I said before and that people see he has a decent jumper and considers his offense to be greater than what it is. There's no way Baynes can be on the floor as a PF.

The reality is he shouldn't be on the court at all. He has no decent jumper. Only reason trying him at PF might work is because it would get Anthony on the court who can actually defend the paint at the C position, and Stan is unlikely to bench Baynes outright this early (even though he should). In other words putting him at PF isn't to take advantage of anything he does well, rather to hide him more, as all the things he does poor might be less exposed there. Basically just use him as an extra dirty work guy up front, instead of the main and only one.

How are you hiding him by putting him on guys that can walk past him like a fire hydrant?

Arp590 · Post #20 » by **Arp590** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:29 am

DetroitSho wrote:Anybody thinking Baynes can be on the court with either Dre or Anthony need to go back and re-watch the Phoenix game and see how smaller/quicker players present problems for our centers. This again goes back to what I said before and that people see he has a decent jumper and considers his offense to be greater than what it is. There's no way Baynes can be on the floor as a PF.

No one recommended playing Baynes next to Dre, we're talking about Joel Anthony.
It makes sense playing Baynes with Anthony in certain matchups.

DetroitSho wrote:How are you hiding him by putting him on guys that can walk past him like a fire hydrant?

We're talking about going up against bench PF's here.. Brandon Bass, Lavoy Allen, John Henson... pretty sure he can hold his own against those guys.
Unless they go small or have a quick PF, it can work.

It's not like Tolliver is going to do anything anyways, so might as well have a better defensive unit to hold down our bench.