Game 26: Detroit Pistons (14-11) vs. LA Clippers (14-10) - 7:30 PM ET

[Arp590]

Maybe we should bring this FT Foul discussion to the General Board? See what everyone thinks?

[BigFatBob]

Oooooooooooo, Reggie earned a piece of that 80mil tonight. Folks out here are starting to respect you!

Sooner than later we gotta get on a winning streak man. The East is look competitive this season!

We have a tough schedule coming up so I wouldn't hold my breath

[Arp590]

From Clippers Board:

I'm not sure how I feel about the foul on Drummond. It was a smart play by the Clippers but that shouldn't really be legal. If you can't foul off the ball under 2 minutes you probably shouldn't be allowed to commit clearly intentional fouls in loose ball situations either, but I'll take it.

i didn't even know you could commit a foul in that situation if the ball goes in

interesting if it was doc or whoever on the bench was the first to come up with this, but it could definitely set a precedent for the future to be used against DJ

maybe it would have been better to take the loss in not doing that if it meant not giving other teams an insight to a clipper weakness

or maybe im thinking too far into it

[hoophabit]

Tough loss. The Clippers are a better, more complete team. If anything seemed clear to me last night it was our need to upgrade at PF, although I doubt that happens during the season. Our "stretch" PFs are okay in many games, but when we run into a team that has a real PF they're over matched. Blake just bullied them all game long. Drummond probably shouldn't have gone for the steal, but had he been successful we'd all be talking about what a great play it was. Clearly, he'd been watching the same thing I just commented upon. Loved the tripping foul/block on KCP trying to defend Griffin. A nice example of adding insult to injury. I don't even want to discuss the impact on the outcome, but how JJ jumping on Drummond's back even before the ball reaches the rim isn't an intentional foul seems a legitimate question?

At the start of the game they showed both starting lineups, and the Clipper's least experienced starter had the same years in the league as our most experienced starter. The Clippers were just more crisp in their execution for most of the game.

Still, a much better team than last year. More improvement is needed, but I'm very happy with the team's direction.

[russkopp]

^^^ Exactly. We are so much better than at any point in the last 6 years probably. But we're still at least a player away and need more time for seasoning. Ersan is sweet shooting but that's all at this point, he should really be in Tollivers role as we upgrade at PF. Unfortunately we don't have the pieces right now.

This team is close. Hopefully Jennings is a boost off the bench or a boost via trade but either way, we have a legit up and coming team. Moving on.

[bstein14]

So, doing a little research, it appears as though a foul committed while an offensive players is shooting a shot, by a different offensive player should negate the points. I can't see anything written specifically for a FT attempt, but I would imagine it should work the same way as a FG attempt. If you foul someone before the ball goes in the basket it should negate the offensive points. Its something you never see during a free throw, as the fouls usually only occur once the ball is live for a rebound. So IMO from everything I can read and interpret from the rulebook that foul should have resulted in no points. From what I can tell, the ball is only considered a "Loose ball" once the ball is a position to be rebounded. While a shot is in the air and has a chance to go in the offense is still considered to be committing an offensive foul.

[Jackattaq]

The Pistons are in trouble until they get some smarter players, KCP was falling over his own feet trying to keep up with Redick (who made him his b1t*h). KCP loses his defensive player card after a failure like last night. Drummond not making any sort of effort to play hard until halfway through the game hurt with the slow start. He can't decide he doesn't feel like playing and expect to be a team leader. Marcus getting away with taking BAD SHOTS at times just because they go in doesn't take away from the fact that they are still BAD SHOTS. Drummond still after 3 seasons not being able to be even remotely acceptable at the FT line. These guys aren't smart, they are not hard fixes, but as they say, you can't fix STUPID. This group of players hasn't put in the time to be better or if they have, maybe they aren't capable of being better. Until we get guys who know how to play SMART DISCIPLINED basketball this team is sunk. The Pistons more often than not, PLAY STUPID. For as much talent as Reggie has, and it's plenty, he still takes terrible shots. He dribbles way too much and the offense is STAGNANT with him at the Point. If HERO REGGIE isn't playing well, then the Pistons offense SPUTTERS HARD. The team shoots way too many jumpers, when they aren't falling they don't switch it up and try to drive, they just jack up more BAD SHOTS.

How is it that a group of "professionals" can't shoot FT's well? KCP bricks one with the game on the line, ANDRE FLAT OUT SUCKS AT THE LINE, he's rather work on his halfcourters during warmups. As a team they seem to miss them most when they matter. This team just irks me to no end. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, PLAY THE RIGHT WAY AND MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY. Don't play dumb, take smart shots. Make SIMPLE PASSES, that stupid Reggie between the legs backwards bounce pass was so slow that Grandma could have grabbed it. Too much flash, not enough substance with this team. UGH.

[Timmaytime]

The Pistons are in trouble until they get some smarter players, KCP was falling over his own feet trying to keep up with Redick (who made him his b1t*h). KCP loses his defensive player card after a failure like last night. Drummond not making any sort of effort to play hard until halfway through the game hurt with the slow start. He can't decide he doesn't feel like playing and expect to be a team leader. Marcus getting away with taking BAD SHOTS at times just because they go in doesn't take away from the fact that they are still BAD SHOTS. Drummond still after 3 seasons not being able to be even remotely acceptable at the FT line. These guys aren't smart, they are not hard fixes, but as they say, you can't fix STUPID. This group of players hasn't put in the time to be better or if they have, maybe they aren't capable of being better. Until we get guys who know how to play SMART DISCIPLINED basketball this team is sunk. The Pistons more often than not, PLAY STUPID. For as much talent as Reggie has, and it's plenty, he still takes terrible shots. He dribbles way too much and the offense is STAGNANT with him at the Point. If HERO REGGIE isn't playing well, then the Pistons offense SPUTTERS HARD. The team shoots way too many jumpers, when they aren't falling they don't switch it up and try to drive, they just jack up more BAD SHOTS.

How is it that a group of "professionals" can't shoot FT's well? KCP bricks one with the game on the line, ANDRE FLAT OUT SUCKS AT THE LINE, he's rather work on his halfcourters during warmups. As a team they seem to miss them most when they matter. This team just irks me to no end. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, PLAY THE RIGHT WAY AND MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY. Don't play dumb, take smart shots. Make SIMPLE PASSES, that stupid Reggie between the legs backwards bounce pass was so slow that Grandma could have grabbed it. Too much flash, not enough substance with this team. UGH.

KCP has proven in my opinion that he is a much better on ball defender than off ball. Dude manhandled Westbrook, held Steph to 22 points and controlled Harden. But he struggles with Redick. Not his thing to chase guys around screens

[BadMofoPimp]

Tough loss. The Clippers are a better, more complete team. If anything seemed clear to me last night it was our need to upgrade at PF, although I doubt that happens during the season. Our "stretch" PFs are okay in many games, but when we run into a team that has a real PF they're over matched. Blake just bullied them all game long. Drummond probably shouldn't have gone for the steal, but had he been successful we'd all be talking about what a great play it was. Clearly, he'd been watching the same thing I just commented upon. Loved the tripping foul/block on KCP trying to defend Griffin. A nice example of adding insult to injury. I don't even want to discuss the impact on the outcome, but how JJ jumping on Drummond's back even before the ball reaches the rim isn't an intentional foul seems a legitimate question?

At the start of the game they showed both starting lineups, and the Clipper's least experienced starter had the same years in the league as our most experienced starter. The Clippers were just more crisp in their execution for most of the game.

Still, a much better team than last year. More improvement is needed, but I'm very happy with the team's direction.

Most players on the Clippers team had been playing with each other for years. So, team chemistry is very high on that team while they all know each other well.

The entire Pistons team has been playing with each other for only months while they still almost knocked off the Clippers. That is a massive achievement. Pistons are getting good quick. Can't win em all.

[DBC10]

The Pistons are in trouble until they get some smarter players, KCP was falling over his own feet trying to keep up with Redick (who made him his b1t*h). KCP loses his defensive player card after a failure like last night. Drummond not making any sort of effort to play hard until halfway through the game hurt with the slow start. He can't decide he doesn't feel like playing and expect to be a team leader. Marcus getting away with taking BAD SHOTS at times just because they go in doesn't take away from the fact that they are still BAD SHOTS. Drummond still after 3 seasons not being able to be even remotely acceptable at the FT line. These guys aren't smart, they are not hard fixes, but as they say, you can't fix STUPID. This group of players hasn't put in the time to be better or if they have, maybe they aren't capable of being better. Until we get guys who know how to play SMART DISCIPLINED basketball this team is sunk. The Pistons more often than not, PLAY STUPID. For as much talent as Reggie has, and it's plenty, he still takes terrible shots. He dribbles way too much and the offense is STAGNANT with him at the Point. If HERO REGGIE isn't playing well, then the Pistons offense SPUTTERS HARD. The team shoots way too many jumpers, when they aren't falling they don't switch it up and try to drive, they just jack up more BAD SHOTS.

How is it that a group of "professionals" can't shoot FT's well? KCP bricks one with the game on the line, ANDRE FLAT OUT SUCKS AT THE LINE, he's rather work on his halfcourters during warmups. As a team they seem to miss them most when they matter. This team just irks me to no end. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, PLAY THE RIGHT WAY AND MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY. Don't play dumb, take smart shots. Make SIMPLE PASSES, that stupid Reggie between the legs backwards bounce pass was so slow that Grandma could have grabbed it. Too much flash, not enough substance with this team. UGH.

KCP has proven in my opinion that he is a much better on ball defender than off ball. Dude manhandled Westbrook, held Steph to 22 points and controlled Harden. But he struggles with Redick. Not his thing to chase guys around screens

This is true. He's probably only average at off ball defending and guys like Reddick are insanely good at finding the right cuts and curls.

[Timmaytime]

The Pistons are in trouble until they get some smarter players, KCP was falling over his own feet trying to keep up with Redick (who made him his b1t*h). KCP loses his defensive player card after a failure like last night. Drummond not making any sort of effort to play hard until halfway through the game hurt with the slow start. He can't decide he doesn't feel like playing and expect to be a team leader. Marcus getting away with taking BAD SHOTS at times just because they go in doesn't take away from the fact that they are still BAD SHOTS. Drummond still after 3 seasons not being able to be even remotely acceptable at the FT line. These guys aren't smart, they are not hard fixes, but as they say, you can't fix STUPID. This group of players hasn't put in the time to be better or if they have, maybe they aren't capable of being better. Until we get guys who know how to play SMART DISCIPLINED basketball this team is sunk. The Pistons more often than not, PLAY STUPID. For as much talent as Reggie has, and it's plenty, he still takes terrible shots. He dribbles way too much and the offense is STAGNANT with him at the Point. If HERO REGGIE isn't playing well, then the Pistons offense SPUTTERS HARD. The team shoots way too many jumpers, when they aren't falling they don't switch it up and try to drive, they just jack up more BAD SHOTS.

How is it that a group of "professionals" can't shoot FT's well? KCP bricks one with the game on the line, ANDRE FLAT OUT SUCKS AT THE LINE, he's rather work on his halfcourters during warmups. As a team they seem to miss them most when they matter. This team just irks me to no end. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, PLAY THE RIGHT WAY AND MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY. Don't play dumb, take smart shots. Make SIMPLE PASSES, that stupid Reggie between the legs backwards bounce pass was so slow that Grandma could have grabbed it. Too much flash, not enough substance with this team. UGH.

KCP has proven in my opinion that he is a much better on ball defender than off ball. Dude manhandled Westbrook, held Steph to 22 points and controlled Harden. But he struggles with Redick. Not his thing to chase guys around screens

This is true. He's probably only average at off ball defending and guys like Reddick are insanely good at finding the right cuts and curls.

yeah we can't underestimate how well Redick moves off the ball. Probably top 2 in the NBA with Korver...

[Blkbrd671]

You guys crack me up, its not really that hard

1.) There was a violation or foul by the other team during the shot attempt. Therefore no basket, other teams ball. I would think you treat it like a lane violation.

2.) Regardless of whether the refs f* up or not. Dre shouldn't be in there for exactly crazy sh* like that. SVG made a mistake there

3.) The "foul" lead to fts and eventually a 3 point lead. We defend properly or foul griffin in the lane, its more than likely a win. We didn't.

4.) You can't f* up this much against a veteran team, nor expect to take them down to the wire and win. We need to play 4 good quarters of bball if we want to beat the good teams.

[Jackattaq]

KCP has proven in my opinion that he is a much better on ball defender than off ball. Dude manhandled Westbrook, held Steph to 22 points and controlled Harden. But he struggles with Redick. Not his thing to chase guys around screens

This is true. He's probably only average at off ball defending and guys like Reddick are insanely good at finding the right cuts and curls.

yeah we can't underestimate how well Redick moves off the ball. Probably top 2 in the NBA with Korver...

Yet KCP played well defensively and held Korver in check last time they played, did he all of a sudden forget how to fight through screens?

[Arp590]

Here's a scenario to prove that the foul probably isn't allowed:

Clippers foul Drummond, Drummond shoots free throws, Drummond makes 2nd free throw but during that time Deandre Jordan is fouled by the Piston's, Deandre Jordan immediately goes and shoots free throws, during this time Drummond is fouled.
Do you see where i'm going with this..? The clock wouldn't move! Since we are fouling while the clock isn't running, they can just foul each other back and forth during free throws forever without the clock moving at all.. or until everyone fouls out.

Does that sound realistic to you? I guarantee this would be stopped after the first couple times and the refs would be like wait this isn't something that is allowed...

[Todd3]

You guys crack me up, its not really that hard

1.) There was a violation or foul by the other team during the shot attempt. Therefore no basket, other teams ball. I would think you treat it like a lane violation.

2.) Regardless of whether the refs f* up or not. Dre shouldn't be in there for exactly crazy sh* like that. SVG made a mistake there

3.) The "foul" lead to fts and eventually a 3 point lead. We defend properly or foul griffin in the lane, its more than likely a win. We didn't.

4.) You can't f* up this much against a veteran team, nor expect to take them down to the wire and win. We need to play 4 good quarters of bball if we want to beat the good teams.

Most games against good teams are going to be close finishes to have any chance to win. If you can't expect to beat them in close games, we shouldn't expect to beat them comfortably. So I don't really buy that we should have played better earlier and it wouldn't have come down to that. Ideally you would like to play great all 48, but the other team is going to make runs throughout the game too. They were favored by 1 pt so a close game was anticipated, and 1 bad call at the end of a close game can be the difference. Dre shouldn't have been in there, but it doesn't excuse the call.

I agree we should have fouled at the end and not allowed a 3. Shooters are too good today to not foul in those situations now.

[Todd3]

Here's a scenario to prove that the foul probably isn't allowed:

Clippers foul Drummond, Drummond shoots free throws, Drummond makes 2nd free throw but during that time Deandre Jordan is fouled by the Piston's, Deandre Jordan immediately goes and shoots free throws, during this time Drummond is fouled.
Do you see where i'm going with this..? The clock wouldn't move! Since we are fouling while the clock isn't running, they can just foul each other back and forth during free throws forever without the clock moving at all.. or until everyone fouls out.

Does that sound realistic to you? I guarantee this would be stopped after the first couple times and the refs would be like wait this isn't something that is allowed...

Exactly. It's illogical and doubtful that no one in the league office ever considered such a scenario when making the rules, and doubtful its allowed. I think the refs just f***ed up.

Someone in the GB posted a gif of Paul doing it to Howard before on a missed FT rebound too, so that was probably the plan here - foul him in case they miss, not expecting to get the foul and the FT - but the refs just wet the bed and gave them both.

[Blkbrd671]

[
Most games against good teams are going to be close finishes to have any chance to win. If you can't expect to beat them in close games, we shouldn't expect to beat them comfortably.

stop trying to create a debate when there isn't one. The last statement doesn't even make any sense and tries to bottle a NBA game. Each game is different and any given night anyone can win, regardless of ESPN predictions.

So I don't really buy that we should have played better earlier and it wouldn't have come down to that. Ideally you would like to play great all 48, but the other team is going to make runs throughout the game too. They were favored by 1 pt so a close game was anticipated,

again no clue what the point is here. Predictions don't mean sh*. We played like crap in 3 quarters and were still in the game in the 4th and took the lead . The clippers played liek teh clippers last night and we were still in the game.

[Todd3]

[
Most games against good teams are going to be close finishes to have any chance to win. If you can't expect to beat them in close games, we shouldn't expect to beat them comfortably.

stop trying to create a debate when there isn't one. The last statement doesn't even make any sense and tries to bottle a NBA game. Each game is different and any given night anyone can win, regardless of ESPN predictions.

So I don't really buy that we should have played better earlier and it wouldn't have come down to that. Ideally you would like to play great all 48, but the other team is going to make runs throughout the game too. They were favored by 1 pt so a close game was anticipated,

again no clue what the point is here. Predictions don't mean sh*. We played like crap in 3 quarters and were still in the game in the 4th and took the lead . The clippers played liek teh clippers last night and we were still in the game.

I'm not sure what you are talking about then. I thought you said we can't expect to take a vet team down to the end and win making mistakes. My point is if they can't execute for 5 minutes at the end of a game vs a contender, then we shouldn't expect them to execute for all 4 quarters vs them.

Being a young team, we are fortunate just to still be in these games at the end and have a chance to win vs teams like that, in my opinion. We just have to get better in late game situations. I think we probably did as much as we could the first 42-45 minutes, given the level of competition we were playing and how bad our bench is.

[Cowology]

[
Most games against good teams are going to be close finishes to have any chance to win. If you can't expect to beat them in close games, we shouldn't expect to beat them comfortably.

stop trying to create a debate when there isn't one. The last statement doesn't even make any sense and tries to bottle a NBA game. Each game is different and any given night anyone can win, regardless of ESPN predictions.

So I don't really buy that we should have played better earlier and it wouldn't have come down to that. Ideally you would like to play great all 48, but the other team is going to make runs throughout the game too. They were favored by 1 pt so a close game was anticipated,

again no clue what the point is here. Predictions don't mean sh*. We played like crap in 3 quarters and were still in the game in the 4th and took the lead . The clippers played liek teh clippers last night and we were still in the game.

I'm not sure what you are talking about then. I thought you said we can't expect to take a vet team down to the end and win making mistakes. My point is if they can't execute for 5 minutes at the end of a game vs a contender, then we shouldn't expect them to execute for all 4 quarters vs them.

You keep making these sort of weird quasi-strawman arguments. What we are really talking about here is playing well for 4 quarters so we don't have to play flawless for 5 minutes.

If the effort and execution was more consistent there would be more room for error through out the course of the game including the last 5. This whole "If they can't do it for 5 minutes, how can they do it for 48?" argument makes zero sense.

[Todd3]

stop trying to create a debate when there isn't one. The last statement doesn't even make any sense and tries to bottle a NBA game. Each game is different and any given night anyone can win, regardless of ESPN predictions.




again no clue what the point is here. Predictions don't mean sh*. We played like crap in 3 quarters and were still in the game in the 4th and took the lead . The clippers played liek teh clippers last night and we were still in the game.

I'm not sure what you are talking about then. I thought you said we can't expect to take a vet team down to the end and win making mistakes. My point is if they can't execute for 5 minutes at the end of a game vs a contender, then we shouldn't expect them to execute for all 4 quarters vs them.

You keep making these sort of weird quasi-strawman arguments. What we are really talking about here is playing well for 4 quarters so we don't have to play flawless for 5 minutes.

If the effort and execution was more consistent there would be more room for error through out the course of the game including the last 5. This whole "If they can't do it for 5 minutes, how can they do it for 48?" argument makes zero sense.

I'm not trying to make a strawman argument. I just don't agree with that premise. If they played better throughout the game, yeah they would have had a bigger lead at the end. And if they were playing the 76ers I would agree with that being a reasonable expectation. I just think it's unrealistic to expect to have more than a 4 pt cushion with 33 sec left against a team as good as the Clippers. To me that is all you can ask for. The game was all but over as long as Reggie makes his FTs. They just got a bad call that let the Clippers back in. I understand complaining about Dre being in and anything that happened after that. I don't know what there is to complain about leading up to that though, when we were in position to win vs a great team if not for a bad call. That is all I'm saying.

I'm not really interested in discussing this anymore though now that there is a new game tonight, but just wanted to try to clarify my point from earlier.