Game 27: Phoenix Suns (11-15) @ Golden State Warriors (24-1)

[RunDogGun]

One thing I've noticed this season with Tucker is how nobody actually guards him. Even against the Mavs, they had Dirk on him and Dirk gave Tucker so much space because he doesn't respect Tucker's ability to shoot or do anything offensively period.

We're playing 4 on 5 on offense because of Tucker.

I sometimes feel bad watching him play because it's kinda disrespectful to him that these players treat him like he's nothing and don't even care enough to defend him. Then I realize he's making millions playing a child's game and I no longer feel bad.

We lost too many games this year because they're hiding their worst defenders on Tucker.
That Detroit game highlighted this issue VERY WELL. We were rolling them with Leuer stomping Drummond 1x1 all game long.
Hornacek put Tucker back and they switched Drummond on him. GAME OVER.

It's kinda starting Tony Allen or Andre Roberson, but without the ELITE DEFENSE.
Inexcusable.

Tucker was the only one boxing out in that game.

[Revived]

This is one of the biggest issues with playing this two PG system



If you notice on the play, Knight is actually contesting Thompson as well as he can. There's literally nothing more than Knight could do. However, Klay is a traditional SG and MUCH taller than Knight at 6'7 so Knight's contest doesn't even make him flinch.

If you look at most of our losses, yes our backcourt probably scored a bunch but they also probably gave up just as much if not more to the opposing backcourt.

Against teams with a traditional SG like Klay for example, height matters and Knight and his 6'3 frame isn't scaring anyone defensively. Again, it isn't Knight's fault, he basically did the best he could do on the play above but it makes no difference.

We gave up 27 pts to Klay in that 3rd qtr alone. We had no answer because neither Bledsoe nor Knight is even close to being tall enough to defend him.

[old rem]

Funny how fans think they can coach better than a guy who grew up in a coach's home, starred as an NCAA player, had a long NBA career, was an NBA all-star, paid his dues as an assistant coach under one of the best NBA coaches ever.

But you can do it better. You have no idea about what is going on behind closed doors right now.

There is a vast difference between noticing a flaw in someone else's coaching, and being able to do it yourself.

Yeah.. the stuff coach does on the bench, in a game.. is the easy part. There's an ACCUMULATED effect. Walton knows the game. Kerr knows the game. They BUILT a machine and it ain't high maintenance but at this level you DO fine tune. A Ferrari can do sustained high speed but you have a EXPERT tune it up. Having tried every bad option for DECADES...GSW got everyone on the same page..top to bottom. They are "ultra modern" yet a core concept is right out of the movie 'Hoosiers" MOVE the BALL. Curry + Klay grew UP in NBA world... don't need any mentor. Dray..is like an NFL LB who's channeling Magic Johnson. They all are seeing it as..FUN. Don't underestimate Walton. ANY coach who has a record start.....is something. When he'd never BEEN head coach.. that's freaky. Sometimes..it's 50% VISION...and 50% dumb luck. NORMAL.....Kerr had no experience coaching. Walton.. was an assistant not much older than several of the players. You would not expect that works.

[letsgosuns]

This is one of the biggest issues with playing this two PG system



If you notice on the play, Knight is actually contesting Thompson as well as he can. There's literally nothing more than Knight could do. However, Klay is a traditional SG and MUCH taller than Knight at 6'7 so Knight's contest doesn't even make him flinch.

If you look at most of our losses, yes our backcourt probably scored a bunch but they also probably gave up just as much if not more to the opposing backcourt.

Against teams with a traditional SG like Klay for example, height matters and Knight and his 6'3 frame isn't scaring anyone defensively. Again, it isn't Knight's fault, he basically did the best he could do on the play above but it makes no difference.

We gave up 27 pts to Klay in that 3rd qtr alone. We had no answer because neither Bledsoe nor Knight is even close to being tall enough to defend him.

That is exactly what I have been saying since the Suns had Bledsoe and Dragic. You do not win with two small point guards based on height alone. The Suns are trying to reinvent the wheel. It is pointless. They put themselves at a disadvantage against any team with a good shooting guard before the game even starts.

And look at this: http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/12/phoenix-suns-run-the-saddest-four-on-one-ever-against-the-golden-state-warriors

This is what I have thought since last year as well. The Suns might have the ugliest transition offense I have ever seen. They routinely screw up fast breaks. It is because Knight and Bledsoe make awful decisions. It is truly the opposite of what you want from your point guard position.

[jcsunsfan]

This is one of the biggest issues with playing this two PG system



If you notice on the play, Knight is actually contesting Thompson as well as he can. There's literally nothing more than Knight could do. However, Klay is a traditional SG and MUCH taller than Knight at 6'7 so Knight's contest doesn't even make him flinch.

If you look at most of our losses, yes our backcourt probably scored a bunch but they also probably gave up just as much if not more to the opposing backcourt.

Against teams with a traditional SG like Klay for example, height matters and Knight and his 6'3 frame isn't scaring anyone defensively. Again, it isn't Knight's fault, he basically did the best he could do on the play above but it makes no difference.

We gave up 27 pts to Klay in that 3rd qtr alone. We had no answer because neither Bledsoe nor Knight is even close to being tall enough to defend him.

Aint no one alive going to stop that play

[Revived]

This is one of the biggest issues with playing this two PG system



If you notice on the play, Knight is actually contesting Thompson as well as he can. There's literally nothing more than Knight could do. However, Klay is a traditional SG and MUCH taller than Knight at 6'7 so Knight's contest doesn't even make him flinch.

If you look at most of our losses, yes our backcourt probably scored a bunch but they also probably gave up just as much if not more to the opposing backcourt.

Against teams with a traditional SG like Klay for example, height matters and Knight and his 6'3 frame isn't scaring anyone defensively. Again, it isn't Knight's fault, he basically did the best he could do on the play above but it makes no difference.

We gave up 27 pts to Klay in that 3rd qtr alone. We had no answer because neither Bledsoe nor Knight is even close to being tall enough to defend him.

That is exactly what I have been saying since the Suns had Bledsoe and Dragic. You do not win with two small point guards based on height alone. The Suns are trying to reinvent the wheel. It is pointless. They put themselves at a disadvantage against any team with a good shooting guard before the game even starts.

And look at this: http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/12/phoenix-suns-run-the-saddest-four-on-one-ever-against-the-golden-state-warriors

This is what I have thought since last year as well. The Suns might have the ugliest transition offense I have ever seen. They routinely screw up fast breaks. It is because Knight and Bledsoe make awful decisions. It is truly the opposite of what you want from your point guard position.

Haha that play sums up this season for the Suns

[kennydorglas]

This is one of the biggest issues with playing this two PG system



If you notice on the play, Knight is actually contesting Thompson as well as he can. There's literally nothing more than Knight could do. However, Klay is a traditional SG and MUCH taller than Knight at 6'7 so Knight's contest doesn't even make him flinch.

If you look at most of our losses, yes our backcourt probably scored a bunch but they also probably gave up just as much if not more to the opposing backcourt.

Against teams with a traditional SG like Klay for example, height matters and Knight and his 6'3 frame isn't scaring anyone defensively. Again, it isn't Knight's fault, he basically did the best he could do on the play above but it makes no difference.

We gave up 27 pts to Klay in that 3rd qtr alone. We had no answer because neither Bledsoe nor Knight is even close to being tall enough to defend him.

Klay did most of his damage againster taller/equal sized players (Tucker, Warren, Len and mostly Booker in 3Q)
He was on fire and that's nothing u can do when he's like that.

[thamadkant]

The 2 PG system CAN work...
but just not with Bledsoe and Knight.


A Steve Nash / Steph Curry dual PG setup (both prime)... would demolish their counter parts offensively. Sure... you'd need a pretty darn good defensive SF, PF and C to make up for it... but the shooting, passing, craftiness will simply overwhelm the opponents.


Also, Penny Hardaway, Magic Johnson would work... and pretty much any other star PGs next to one of these guys WOULD work.

Maybe POTENTIALLY... D'Angelo Russell and Zach LaVine dual PG setup CAN work... both can dribble, has size, can shoot... has passing abilities. Can defend taller and shorter PGs.




If Knight was a better play maker and a better VISION PG.... then Bledsoe and Knight can work offensively, even if the defense doesnt.


But watching them 2 pass to each other taking turns in trying to break down the defense whilst the rest watch is tiresome. They'll occasionally feed the ball inside or around the perimeter... BUT so predictable.. no creativity or deception to the defenders, which is easy to counter in most professional leagues.

[DRK]

I still think we can be .500 team end of the season.

Gun for that 13th pick.

Yep, because every team plays their season for drafting order. Why should any player, coach or GM be thinking about the draft right now?

Btw, I think Booker and Warren are pretty good draft picks, and we didn't have to lose every game on purpose to get them.

I never said anything about losing on purpose, something which I hate.

We are a team not good enough to be in the playoffs, and not that bad to get a top pick. Every year, we miss out on playoffs by getting9th or 10th in the West. Its a sad reality.

We fool ourselves every offseason that we can take the next step. Last season it was getting IT, this season its paying Chandler 15mil a year. Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that unless we change the core of this team, its going nowhere fast. We need to wait for that next "disgruntled Star" that McD has pinned his career and job on, otherwise it might be that it McD + Hornacek will be the next asset to be shipped out.

[bwgood77]

The 2 PG system CAN work...
but just not with Bledsoe and Knight.

As posted by Sunsss in the links thread... http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/12/16/13373/

And get out with the Curry/Nash or Magic/Penny backcourts. Yeah, lets take some of the best players of all time...of course they would work.

[bwgood77]

Gun for that 13th pick.

Yep, because every team plays their season for drafting order. Why should any player, coach or GM be thinking about the draft right now?

Btw, I think Booker and Warren are pretty good draft picks, and we didn't have to lose every game on purpose to get them.

I never said anything about losing on purpose, something which I hate.

We are a team not good enough to be in the playoffs, and not that bad to get a top pick. Every year, we miss out on playoffs by getting9th or 10th in the West. Its a sad reality.

We fool ourselves every offseason that we can take the next step. Last season it was getting IT, this season its paying Chandler 15mil a year. Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that unless we change the core of this team, its going nowhere fast. We need to wait for that next "disgruntled Star" that McD has pinned his career and job on, otherwise it might be that it McD + Hornacek will be the next asset to be shipped out.

You don't think had we gotten Aldridge we would have taken the next step?

[jcsunsfan]

Yep, because every team plays their season for drafting order. Why should any player, coach or GM be thinking about the draft right now?

Btw, I think Booker and Warren are pretty good draft picks, and we didn't have to lose every game on purpose to get them.

I never said anything about losing on purpose, something which I hate.

We are a team not good enough to be in the playoffs, and not that bad to get a top pick. Every year, we miss out on playoffs by getting9th or 10th in the West. Its a sad reality.

We fool ourselves every offseason that we can take the next step. Last season it was getting IT, this season its paying Chandler 15mil a year. Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that unless we change the core of this team, its going nowhere fast. We need to wait for that next "disgruntled Star" that McD has pinned his career and job on, otherwise it might be that it McD + Hornacek will be the next asset to be shipped out.

You don't think had we gotten Aldridge we would have taken the next step?

The next step is the hardest one. It takes real patience to find the right deal, or you just go backwards.

[DRK]

Yep, because every team plays their season for drafting order. Why should any player, coach or GM be thinking about the draft right now?

Btw, I think Booker and Warren are pretty good draft picks, and we didn't have to lose every game on purpose to get them.

I never said anything about losing on purpose, something which I hate.

We are a team not good enough to be in the playoffs, and not that bad to get a top pick. Every year, we miss out on playoffs by getting9th or 10th in the West. Its a sad reality.

We fool ourselves every offseason that we can take the next step. Last season it was getting IT, this season its paying Chandler 15mil a year. Unfortunately the fact of the matter is that unless we change the core of this team, its going nowhere fast. We need to wait for that next "disgruntled Star" that McD has pinned his career and job on, otherwise it might be that it McD + Hornacek will be the next asset to be shipped out.

You don't think had we gotten Aldridge we would have taken the next step?

Of course, but we didnt. Even though theres nothing you can do about it, its not going to do McD any favours if 3 seasons from now we are in the same position. Him keeping his job wont be relying on "almost getting LMA three years ago." This is the NBA, there are no prizes for second place.

As unfortunate as it is, unless this team improves quicker on the court, or at least shows some improvement from the plunges of mediocrity, McD's job might not be so secure.

I do believe though although our on court performance is very poor, we DO have the talent to maybe scrape playoffs this year IF big changes are made in the coaching/department and some players pull their head in. Our team needs a new mentality, focused on ball movement and generating easy shots - but thats a story for another day and a subject for a different thread.

[bwgood77]

Of course, but we didnt. Even though theres nothing you can do about it, its not going to do McD any favours if 3 seasons from now we are in the same position. Him keeping his job wont be relying on "almost getting LMA three years ago." This is the NBA, there are no prizes for second place.

As unfortunate as it is, unless this team improves quicker on the court, or at least shows some improvement from the plunges of mediocrity, McD's job might not be so secure.

I do believe though although our on court performance is very poor, we DO have the talent to maybe scrape playoffs this year IF big changes are made in the coaching/department and some players pull their head in. Our team needs a new mentality, focused on ball movement and generating easy shots - but thats a story for another day and a subject for a different thread.

Well we had zero shot at Aldridge without Chandler since he had told teams they would have a chance with him if they could get Chandler. You said we fooled ourselves with IT (correct) and with Chandler (not so accurate) as if he we thought him alone would make us take a huge step forward.

I imagine other power forwards would possibly take us more seriously with him around as well.

But regardless, I don't think his leadership is a bad thing even just to help our players take small steps forward in their thinking and development (particularly Len).

[NavLDO]

Of course, but we didnt. Even though theres nothing you can do about it, its not going to do McD any favours if 3 seasons from now we are in the same position. Him keeping his job wont be relying on "almost getting LMA three years ago." This is the NBA, there are no prizes for second place.

As unfortunate as it is, unless this team improves quicker on the court, or at least shows some improvement from the plunges of mediocrity, McD's job might not be so secure.

I do believe though although our on court performance is very poor, we DO have the talent to maybe scrape playoffs this year IF big changes are made in the coaching/department and some players pull their head in. Our team needs a new mentality, focused on ball movement and generating easy shots - but thats a story for another day and a subject for a different thread.

Well we had zero shot at Aldridge without Chandler since he had told teams they would have a chance with him if they could get Chandler. You said we fooled ourselves with IT (correct) and with Chandler (not so accurate) as if he we thought him alone would make us take a huge step forward.

I imagine other power forwards would possibly take us more seriously with him around as well.

But regardless, I don't think his leadership is a bad thing even just to help our players take small steps forward in their thinking and development (particularly Len).

Agreed. Unfortunately, there are certain factors I think we can point to that have had a significant effect on this season outside of just the 'short' guards effect. IMO, Len hasn't developed as much as I thought he would. I'm not saying he hasn't at all; just that I was expecting more, especially with Chandler in the fold. And Chandler is #2 on my list. Yes, he's older, but his play is nowhere near the level I expected. #3, but likely should be #1, is Kieff has simply checked out this season; and his play has likely negatively affected everyone's play, but moreso Chandler and Len than others. And #3 is pretty much #4, and that is the lack of a starter-level PF, which leads us to #5, and that is the 3-headed PF 'monster'. Leuer and Teletovic's play has been admirable, but they are what they are. #6 is Tucker; he's simply terrible at this point.

So, I've been extremely busy over the past few months, and I'm not going to pretend that I've seen a ton of play this year, but from what little I've seen, I'm not surprised with our current dilemma, and until Kieff is gone, and we have a suitable replacement, we won't truly know what we have in Len/Chandler. And until Tucker either picks up his play, or is just flat out benched, and we can utilize Warren properly, we just are spinning our wheels. Kieff has had a majorly negative impact on our ability to compete effectively.

That's my take, right or wrong, but again, I haven't watched/followed as closely as I would have liked. And BTW, I am very happy, as everyone else likely is, with our rookie's development--I really hope Booker isn't just a 'flash-in-the-pan' an continues to develop.

[DRK]

Of course, but we didnt. Even though theres nothing you can do about it, its not going to do McD any favours if 3 seasons from now we are in the same position. Him keeping his job wont be relying on "almost getting LMA three years ago." This is the NBA, there are no prizes for second place.

As unfortunate as it is, unless this team improves quicker on the court, or at least shows some improvement from the plunges of mediocrity, McD's job might not be so secure.

I do believe though although our on court performance is very poor, we DO have the talent to maybe scrape playoffs this year IF big changes are made in the coaching/department and some players pull their head in. Our team needs a new mentality, focused on ball movement and generating easy shots - but thats a story for another day and a subject for a different thread.

Well we had zero shot at Aldridge without Chandler since he had told teams they would have a chance with him if they could get Chandler. You said we fooled ourselves with IT (correct) and with Chandler (not so accurate) as if he we thought him alone would make us take a huge step forward.

I imagine other power forwards would possibly take us more seriously with him around as well.

But regardless, I don't think his leadership is a bad thing even just to help our players take small steps forward in their thinking and development (particularly Len).

Does he though? Len has shown he needs consistent minutes to develop, instead of spot minutes off the bench. As our starting C last season, Len was one of the best rim protectors in the league.

Sure Chandler wont hurt his development, but what is the trade off between having Chandler on a non-playoff team for 15mil a year compared with having a retired big man on the coaching staff for 500k a year?

Chandlers play hasnt been lighting it up either. If he keeps up the way he's playing the FA attraction of having Tyson on the team is going down the tube.

[bwgood77]

Of course, but we didnt. Even though theres nothing you can do about it, its not going to do McD any favours if 3 seasons from now we are in the same position. Him keeping his job wont be relying on "almost getting LMA three years ago." This is the NBA, there are no prizes for second place.

As unfortunate as it is, unless this team improves quicker on the court, or at least shows some improvement from the plunges of mediocrity, McD's job might not be so secure.

I do believe though although our on court performance is very poor, we DO have the talent to maybe scrape playoffs this year IF big changes are made in the coaching/department and some players pull their head in. Our team needs a new mentality, focused on ball movement and generating easy shots - but thats a story for another day and a subject for a different thread.

Well we had zero shot at Aldridge without Chandler since he had told teams they would have a chance with him if they could get Chandler. You said we fooled ourselves with IT (correct) and with Chandler (not so accurate) as if he we thought him alone would make us take a huge step forward.

I imagine other power forwards would possibly take us more seriously with him around as well.

But regardless, I don't think his leadership is a bad thing even just to help our players take small steps forward in their thinking and development (particularly Len).

Does he though? Len has shown he needs consistent minutes to develop, instead of spot minutes off the bench. As our starting C last season, Len was one of the best rim protectors in the league.

Sure Chandler wont hurt his development, but what is the trade off between having Chandler on a non-playoff team for 15mil a year compared with having a retired big man on the coaching staff for 500k a year?

Chandlers play hasnt been lighting it up either. If he keeps up the way he's playing the FA attraction of having Tyson on the team is going down the tube.

True, and perhaps you are right if we need that cap space in the coming years. At worst though, I think he will be a solid backup center for a few years, or probably have some trade value.