The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

whysoserious · Post #81 » by **whysoserious** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:52 am

Not widely upset by the fact we're not getting grass. Always felt like it was never going to happen and was all for PR. It's been five years they've been talking about it and the earliest it would happen was 2018 last they said anything. The fact it's taken 5 years to decide and 3 years away from installing it still should give you all the evidence you need it wasn't going to happen and Shapiro announcing it makes little difference.

In saying that this is just another misstep by this organization and Shapiro in a horrible 6 weeks for the Jays.

The people everyone should be upset with is Ed Rogers and Guy Lawrence. All these blunders go back a year plus at minimum. They started searching for a President while the current one was still in place and hadn't announced he wasn't coming back. They were reaching out to people like Ken Williams and then spent all last off-season trying to get Dan Duquette. That looks bad on the organization and it was the starting point of turning AA against the organization.

Going in to this year, Beeston and AA's tenure was very mediocre. Beeston got the team to increase payroll for AA and they spent more than the past but had mixed results. The team was basically a .500 club for 5.5 years of AA's run. Similar to what they've been for the last 20 years and not even a single playoff run or meaningful September.

By mid-season they pretty much knew Beeston was gone and were ready to part with AA too. And had things not turned around, nobody would have blamed them or been too upset that AA was gone.

Then AA made those moves and they were already far down the path with Shapiro and a few weeks after the trades it Shapiro was hired. What no one saw was the huge turn around coming and it came. AA bought the Jays a ton of good will, the fans rallied, merch sales went through the roof, ratings were ridiculously high, the country was back on the Jays bandwagon and a new generation of fans were engaged with the team.

Rogers was in a tough spot but they brought Shapiro to be the CEO and likely to be GM once AA was gone in their typical cheap fashion. Now they had a problem on their hands and they've fumbled the entire thing ever since. They tried to save face by getting AA to stay but he knew he was going to be working for a President that wanted his hands on the baseball decisions and he walked.

Every decision since then has made them look cheap coming off the most successful season in 22 years. Rogers makes a **** of money and they are a hated company in the cable/mobile markets by their customers. What the Jays presented was a rare opportunity to buy some good will by investing just 40 million more in to the team. It would have likely led to 81 sellouts instead of just the 30 or so down the stretch. It would have kept the team relevant for an entire year, would have maxed out SSH, would have kept ratings up and buys good will for all their other products as they aren't seen as the evil corporation.

It's a shame. I want to the team to do well, but at the same time I won't be too upset if Rogers is exposed here. It's sad that they've basically set Shapiro and his team up to fail in the fans eyes in the first year. Shapiro really ain't doing himself any favours with the fans but this is mostly on Rogers.

Randle McMurphy · Post #82 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:19 am

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EdwardSRogers/status/677885554411769856[/tweet]

Ed believes.

whysoserious · Post #83 » by **whysoserious** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:28 am

Ed Rogers should keep his mouth shut, not helping the situation at all with that tweet.

Post #84 » by **Schad** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:54 am

Billionaire and not even verified on Twitter.

Wo1verine · Post #85 » by **Wo1verine** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:49 am

Man, so many fans can't stand Ed on twitter.

If he only cared about what was being said.

Post #86 » by **Geddy** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:08 am

I'm sure most people here were on the grass bandwagon, and it was one of the reasons for booting the Argos out. Now because Shapiro speaks out against grass the tune has changed to one more along the lines of "well we didn't really need grass anyway". I guess agreeing with everything that Shapiro says or does is the new mark of being a "true fan".

Many players over the years have said they don't want to play regularly on artificial turf so you can keep that on the list of problems in acquiring free agents.

Inevitable · Post #87 » by **Inevitable** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:36 am

I never knew turf was a huge deal to people outside the team till the Fox guys brought it up once every single inning

Indiana Jones · Post #88 » by **Indiana Jones** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:32 pm

One of the wealthiest ownership groups in pro sports in one of the largest sports markets, yet we're a tight budgeted team now headed by historically awful management from Cleveland. We've just had our best season in decades, and are on the cusp of championship contention, yet our team will be remarkably unimproved next year. And now, our disaster of a field is deemed not a priority.

Outside of the Marlins, I think the Toronto Blue Jays under Rogers' ownership are the worst franchise in baseball.

Santoki · Post #89 » by **Santoki** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:38 pm

Geddy wrote:I'm sure most people here were on the grass bandwagon, and it was one of the reasons for booting the Argos out. Now because Shapiro speaks out against grass the tune has changed to one more along the lines of "well we didn't really need grass anyway". I guess agreeing with everything that Shapiro says or does is the new mark of being a "true fan".

Many players over the years have said they don't want to play regularly on artificial turf so you can keep that on the list of problems in acquiring free agents.

No it's not. It's just that for some reason people believed all of the things that Paul Beeston said about grass despite everything pointing to it not actually happening.

So now Shapiro has come in and said that he will be open and honest with fans. Now that he's not paying lip service to us about things like grass, people assume that it's him axing the plan when in reality they were never going to do it because it was cost prohibitive and they haven't even finished the research yet on how it would work. On top of that by the time it could realistically happen the Dome would be getting towards the end of its useful life. Perhaps not spending $200+ million on natural grass in a stadium that will not be hosting the Jays in 10-15 years is not deemed a good investment.

On top of that perhaps they're trying to see how the new turf they've installed works out first considering we went a whole year without any injuries due to it and the slowness of the turf benefits our defense.

Instead of putting the fanbase in an us vs them light, maybe people railing on Shapiro can try to view things from the other side and understand the realities of the business. Rogers, no matter how much money they make, aren't going to operate the team the way you want them to. So instead of spending the entire team lamenting that fact and blaming Shapiro for it, the people "defending" Shapiro are taking the time to understand what's probably a much more nuanced issue than people want to admit because it's easier to spin a negative narrative to deal with the frustration of not being able to accept reality.

But guess what? The team is still good and are still in contention to win. If you asked the general fanbase you'd swear we were in complete shambles.

Worst run franchise outside of the Marlins? This is what every fan thinks of their ownership. Toronto isn't unique people just think that because they don't follow any other teams.

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Raps in 4 · Post #90 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:44 pm

Santoki wrote:Worst run franchise outside of the Marlins? This is what every fan thinks of their ownership. Toronto isn't unique people just think that because they don't follow any other teams.

We just came off the longest active playoff drought in professional sports. The other two sports teams in this city are the laughing stock of their respective leagues. The common dominator in all this is Rogers.

If you don't think Toronto sports teams are some of the worst run in the world, you're deluding yourself.

polo007 · Post #91 » by **polo007** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:04 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/StarSports/status/678168945581395968[/tweet]

“In my opinion, we don’t need it. My opinion is clearly it would be better. It’s just a question of the alternatives and what are we going to have to choose between,” Shapiro told the gathered press. “I like the game better, I think everyone likes the game better on natural grass. Do we need it? No.”

After years of being told artificial turf was a detriment to free agents and takes a toll on our own players, this is yet another tone deaf look from Shapiro.

Admittedly, he arrived at a tricky time, replacing a beloved general manager, Alex Anthopoulos, who chose to leave. From there, there have been a number of media flare-ups, from not offering David Price a contract, which the previous regime supposedly was going to do, to invoking loathed former manager John Farrell at the press conference while introducing his new right-hand man, Ross Atkins. Even bringing back J.A. Happ could be seen as an affront to fans. It is almost as if Shapiro is underestimating how baseball savvy people are here. Or, at least, Blue Jays savvy.

Was he aware the Rogers Centre grass was important enough for a fan to submit a Freedom of Information request to get the communications between the team and the University of Guelph? That’s a perfect example of the level of investment by hard- core fans here.

On his arrival, it felt like the media greeted Shapiro with kid gloves. This could be chalked up to Canadian politeness and the fair thing in allowing someone to make a first impression — which is also something the media has to do.

It is one of those things that is always unsaid, but one of the very practical considerations whenever there is a regime change of this nature is that things reset, and media folks jockey for insider access. Relationships are often key to getting scoops, and with so much interest after a heady season it’s only natural for the press corps to try and get in good with the new crew.

But the moves this team is making are making that difficult. With each disappointment, and Shapiro’s management speak about “the process” and “budgetary constraints,” it is clear the goodwill from last season has faded.

In all fairness, Shapiro is the new man in charge and if he is approaching everything with an objective and open mind, then this could be good in the long run. One of his reasons for his reported hiring was his ability to make improvements to the aging building. That said, for a man clearly careful with his language, why not use a word like ‘re-evaluating’ as opposed to clearly stating his disdain for a new field?

The other issue is that Shapiro does feel like he is wrestling with the ghosts of the past regime, and looks like he is trying to do whatever he can to strike out to let everyone know this is his show.

Raps in 4 · Post #92 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:21 pm

After years of being told artificial turf was a detriment to free agents

What excuse will Rogers use now when they don't make a play for any free agents?

Randle McMurphy · Post #93 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:37 pm

Geddy wrote:I'm sure most people here were on the grass bandwagon, and it was one of the reasons for booting the Argos out. Now because Shapiro speaks out against grass the tune has changed to one more along the lines of "well we didn't really need grass anyway". I guess agreeing with everything that Shapiro says or does is the new mark of being a "true fan".

Nonsense. Grass would have been nice to have, but if you couldn't tell by the way Beeston dealt with this topic of conversation over the years (pushing the start date back every year by one year, it went from 2014/2015 to 2018/2019) or how the Rogers people dragged their feet with the Guelph researchers what was going to happen here, I don't know what to tell you. It was all there for everybody to see. The only difference now is that Shapiro isn't bothering to lie about the inevitable conclusion like the previous president to make a few fans feel better. If anything, the guy is being too honest for his own good here.

Santoki · Post #94 » by **Santoki** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
Santoki wrote:Worst run franchise outside of the Marlins? This is what every fan thinks of their ownership. Toronto isn't unique people just think that because they don't follow any other teams.

We just came off the longest active playoff drought in professional sports. The other two sports teams in this city are the laughing stock of their respective leagues. The common dominator in all this is Rogers.

If you don't think Toronto sports teams are some of the worst run in the world, you're deluding yourself.

What is your point? The team that won the World Series this year just finished having the longest playoff drought in professional sports the year before. Baseball is the most difficult sport to make the playoffs and the Jays have played in the most difficult division in baseball in the past 20 years. If you think that the Blue Jays are the 2nd worst-run organization in baseball over the past 20 years then you're the one who is completely deluded.

On top of that, the topic was about baseball. What do the other Toronto sports teams have to do with this? Obviously the history in this town doesn't need explaining but the teams here haven't had success well before Rogers owned any of them.

Also, what teams, right now are laughingstocks besides the Leafs? The Raptors? In what world are the Raptors the laughingstock of the NBA? TFC? They had the MVP of the league and finally had a decent season after all those years but they're far from laughingstocks. Hell, you could even argue the Leafs aren't laughingstocks anymore since they brought in Babcock and look on a nightly basis competitive.

You're a classic of example of a Facebook comments fan who thinks the problems his teams faces are unique and doesn't stop to have a critical or logical thought before spewing out some overly dramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

Raps in 4 · Post #95 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:01 pm

What is your point? The team that won the World Series this year just finished having the longest playoff drought in professional sports the year before. Baseball is the most difficult sport to make the playoffs and the Jays have played in the most difficult division in baseball in the past 20 years. If you think that the Blue Jays are the 2nd worst-run organization in baseball over the past 20 years then you're the one who is completely deluded.

It's hard to make the playoffs in baseball, but the Rays, with a payroll of zero, made it several times in the same "tough" division. The Blue Jays were a horribly run organization until AA came along and brought some respectability by revamping the farm system.

On top of that, the topic was about baseball. What do the other Toronto sports teams have to do with this? Obviously the history in this town doesn't need explaining but the teams here haven't had success well before Rogers owned any of them.

The point is that the Blue Jays have horrible ownership, and that same horrible ownership just bought our other two major teams (leaving sports fans in the city of Toronto with no refuge).

Also, what teams, right now are laughingstocks besides the Leafs? The Raptors? In what world are the Raptors the laughingstock of the NBA? TFC? They had the MVP of the league and finally had a decent season after all those years but they're far from laughingstocks. Hell, you could even argue the Leafs aren't laughingstocks anymore since they brought in Babcock and look on a nightly basis competitive.

The Raptors haven't suddenly shed their "Craptors" label after two playoff appearances (both resulting in first round exits). We're still the butt of every basketball joke among non-Raptors fans. The Leafs are last place in the conference (yes, I know they're rebuilding) and haven't won a championship in over 60 years, despite being the most profitable team in the NHL and playing in a league with ridiculous parity. And I said two teams, so clearly not counting TFC (who play in a league that barely qualifies as professional).

You're a classic of example of a Facebook comments fan who thinks the problems his teams faces are unique and doesn't stop to have a critical or logical thought before spewing out some overly dramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

If I'm a classic example of a "casual" fan because I am critical of the team's ownership (and look for actual internal reasons for our failures), what does that make someone who constantly looks for excuses for their team's pathetic performances? I might be a cynic, but you're no better wearing a thick pair of homer glasses.

Santoki · Post #96 » by **Santoki** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:02 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
What is your point? The team that won the World Series this year just finished having the longest playoff drought in professional sports the year before. Baseball is the most difficult sport to make the playoffs and the Jays have played in the most difficult division in baseball in the past 20 years. If you think that the Blue Jays are the 2nd worst-run organization in baseball over the past 20 years then you're the one who is completely deluded.

It's hard to make the playoffs in baseball, but the Rays, with a payroll of zero, made it several times in the same "tough" division. The Blue Jays were a horribly run organization until AA came along and brought some respectability by revamping the farm system.

On top of that, the topic was about baseball. What do the other Toronto sports teams have to do with this? Obviously the history in this town doesn't need explaining but the teams here haven't had success well before Rogers owned any of them.

The point is that the Blue Jays have horrible ownership, and that same horrible ownership just bought our other two major teams (leaving sports fans in the city of Toronto with no refuge).

Also, what teams, right now are laughingstocks besides the Leafs? The Raptors? In what world are the Raptors the laughingstock of the NBA? TFC? They had the MVP of the league and finally had a decent season after all those years but they're far from laughingstocks. Hell, you could even argue the Leafs aren't laughingstocks anymore since they brought in Babcock and look on a nightly basis competitive.

The Raptors haven't suddenly shed their "Craptors" label after two playoff appearances (both resulting in first round exits). We're still the butt of every basketball joke among non-Raptors fans. The Leafs are last place in the conference (yes, I know they're rebuilding) and haven't won a championship in over 60 years, despite being the most profitable team in the NHL and playing in a league with ridiculous parity. And I said two teams, so clearly not counting TFC (who play in a league that barely qualifies as professional).

You're a classic of example of a Facebook comments fan who thinks the problems his teams faces are unique and doesn't stop to have a critical or logical thought before spewing out some overly dramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

If I'm a classic example of a "casual" fan because I am critical of the team's ownership (and look for actual internal reasons for our failures), what does that make someone who constantly looks for excuses for their team's pathetic performances? I might be a cynic, but you're no better wearing a thick pair of homer glasses.

Alright cool so you legitimately think the Raptors are a laughingstock in the NBA. That's all I needed to know about your level of knowledge about sports. Back to the ignore you list go. Maybe try the Raptors board to better hone your trolling skills.

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Raps in 4 · Post #97 » by **Raps in 4** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:38 pm

Santoki wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
What is your point? The team that won the World Series this year just finished having the longest playoff drought in professional sports the year before. Baseball is the most difficult sport to make the playoffs and the Jays have played in the most difficult division in baseball in the past 20 years. If you think that the Blue Jays are the 2nd worst-run organization in baseball over the past 20 years then you're the one who is completely deluded.

It's hard to make the playoffs in baseball, but the Rays, with a payroll of zero, made it several times in the same "tough" division. The Blue Jays were a horribly run organization until AA came along and brought some respectability by revamping the farm system.

On top of that, the topic was about baseball. What do the other Toronto sports teams have to do with this? Obviously the history in this town doesn't need explaining but the teams here haven't had success well before Rogers owned any of them.

The point is that the Blue Jays have horrible ownership, and that same horrible ownership just bought our other two major teams (leaving sports fans in the city of Toronto with no refuge).

Also, what teams, right now are laughingstocks besides the Leafs? The Raptors? In what world are the Raptors the laughingstock of the NBA? TFC? They had the MVP of the league and finally had a decent season after all those years but they're far from laughingstocks. Hell, you could even argue the Leafs aren't laughingstocks anymore since they brought in Babcock and look on a nightly basis competitive.

The Raptors haven't suddenly shed their "Craptors" label after two playoff appearances (both resulting in first round exits). We're still the butt of every basketball joke among non-Raptors fans. The Leafs are last place in the conference (yes, I know they're rebuilding) and haven't won a championship in over 60 years, despite being the most profitable team in the NHL and playing in a league with ridiculous parity. And I said two teams, so clearly not counting TFC (who play in a league that barely qualifies as professional).

You're a classic of example of a Facebook comments fan who thinks the problems his teams faces are unique and doesn't stop to have a critical or logical thought before spewing out some overly dramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

If I'm a classic example of a "casual" fan because I am critical of the team's ownership (and look for actual internal reasons for our failures), what does that make someone who constantly looks for excuses for their team's pathetic performances? I might be a cynic, but you're no better wearing a thick pair of homer glasses.

Alright cool so you legitimately think the Raptors are a laughingstock in the NBA. That's all I needed to know about your level of knowledge about sports. Back to the ignore you list go. Maybe try the Raptors board to better hone your trolling skills.

Excellent rebuttal. I'm not sure why you even bother getting into these discussions if you can't professionally respond to differing views. And I'm not sure why I bother typing out responses when each of your posts ends in a personal attack anyway.

Post #98 » by **Latrell** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:42 pm

Santoki wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
What is your point? The team that won the World Series this year just finished having the longest playoff drought in professional sports the year before. Baseball is the most difficult sport to make the playoffs and the Jays have played in the most difficult division in baseball in the past 20 years. If you think that the Blue Jays are the 2nd worst-run organization in baseball over the past 20 years then you're the one who is completely deluded.

It's hard to make the playoffs in baseball, but the Rays, with a payroll of zero, made it several times in the same "tough" division. The Blue Jays were a horribly run organization until AA came along and brought some respectability by revamping the farm system.

On top of that, the topic was about baseball. What do the other Toronto sports teams have to do with this? Obviously the history in this town doesn't need explaining but the teams here haven't had success well before Rogers owned any of them.

The point is that the Blue Jays have horrible ownership, and that same horrible ownership just bought our other two major teams (leaving sports fans in the city of Toronto with no refuge).

Also, what teams, right now are laughingstocks besides the Leafs? The Raptors? In what world are the Raptors the laughingstock of the NBA? TFC? They had the MVP of the league and finally had a decent season after all those years but they're far from laughingstocks. Hell, you could even argue the Leafs aren't laughingstocks anymore since they brought in Babcock and look on a nightly basis competitive.

The Raptors haven't suddenly shed their "Craptors" label after two playoff appearances (both resulting in first round exits). We're still the butt of every basketball joke among non-Raptors fans. The Leafs are last place in the conference (yes, I know they're rebuilding) and haven't won a championship in over 60 years, despite being the most profitable team in the NHL and playing in a league with ridiculous parity. And I said two teams, so clearly not counting TFC (who play in a league that barely qualifies as professional).

You're a classic of example of a Facebook comments fan who thinks the problems his teams faces are unique and doesn't stop to have a critical or logical thought before spewing out some overly dramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

If I'm a classic example of a "casual" fan because I am critical of the team's ownership (and look for actual internal reasons for our failures), what does that make someone who constantly looks for excuses for their team's pathetic performances? I might be a cynic, but you're no better wearing a thick pair of homer glasses.

Alright cool so you legitimately think the Raptors are a laughingstock in the NBA. That's all I needed to know about your level of knowledge about sports. Back to the ignore you list go. Maybe try the Raptors board to better hone your trolling skills.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I can tell you as a fan who travels to many Raptors road games that the Raptors are 100% NOT a laughingstock team. Almost every opposing fan I've talked to actually seems higher on the Raps than most Raps fans themselves.

polo007 · Post #99 » by **polo007** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:48 pm

According to the Toronto Star, since taking the reins in November 2015, Mark Shapiro has hinted at plans to replicate his past investment in analytics by beefing up the Toronto Blue Jays’ department.

Earlier this month at a news conference to introduce Ross Atkins as general manager, he called Joe Sheehan “one of the bright young guys in the game today,” but added that Sheehan was working with a staff “that’s smaller than most.”

In an email to The Star this week, Shapiro was less explicit, calling analytics an “area of opportunity” for the organization.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2015/12/19/the-jays-joe-sheehan-is-living-life-by-the-numbers.html

When Joe Sheehan was playing Division 3 baseball in college, he could read the tea leaves about his future as a player. Now he's reading numbers as the Blue Jays' director of analytics.

Last month, when the Blue Jays informed the media they had extended a qualifying offer to Marco Estrada, they also tacked on a more under-the-radar announcement: Joe Sheehan had been promoted to director of analytics.

It was primarily a change in title (and presumably salary), as Sheehan had already been directing the team’s analytics for the last few years. But it signified an increase in stature for the 31-year-old and his department within the Jays’ revamped front office under new team president Mark Shapiro.

In Cleveland, Shapiro’s Indians were at the forefront of baseball’s analytical revolution of the early 2000s, luring MIT grads to join their front office while developing what was the most sophisticated baseball information system in the game. DiamondView, the Indians’ proprietary analytical database, was launched in 2000 and is considered the forebear to similar databases that now exist throughout the league. (The Jays, for example, launched their database, The BEEST — a nod to longtime team president Paul Beeston — in 2013.)

Since taking the reins in November, Shapiro has hinted at plans to replicate his past investment in analytics by beefing up the Jays’ department. Earlier this month at a news conference to introduce Ross Atkins as general manager, he called Sheehan “one of the bright young guys in the game today,” but added that Sheehan was working with a staff “that’s smaller than most.”

In an email to The Star this week, Shapiro was less explicit, calling analytics an “area of opportunity” for the organization.

It’s not as if the Jays under Alex Anthopoulos were non-believers in advanced statistical analysis. They hired Sheehan, after all. But they did not buy in to the extent of organizations like the Indians, Houston Astros and Pittsburgh Pirates, among others. Maybe it’s just titular semantics, but Sheehan is the Jays’ first director of analytics, an elevated title Shapiro first bestowed in Cleveland eight years ago.

Sheehan, who sat down with The Star earlier this week for his first media interview, was reluctant to wade into those political waters or discuss any plans to expand his three-person department. “I don’t have anything I can say on that,” he said, cagily. “We have thoughts, but nothing I can tell you at this point.”

C Court · Post #100 » by **C Court** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:30 am

Does anyone seriously believe this off-season would have been materially different if Beeston and Alex were still around?

I've got news for you. Neither Price, natural grass or additional player funds would be here if the old regime were in charge. The difference is the new guys are being more forthright than their predecessors.

Fans and the media need to give Shapiro and Atkins some time before jumping to irrational conclusions and assuming the worst case scenario.