The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread

[benchmobbin02]

lol I'm fully aware that Bergstrom is a ZBS player, and that we've run power the past 3 years. It doesn't negate the fact that he's not very good at it, and if we use a 3rd round pick and wind up with a backup C, that's not a success story. Didn't we also have snapping issues the entire time Bergstrom was at C? But that's ok, because he had a good grade? AQ Shipley was what, 4th in C grades last year as a backup? The Colts let him walk without a fight, and he's been average at best there. So while I do like PFF's grades, it seems that NFL teams don't value them that much.

It's funny, you have no problem assuming on your end, but if anyone else does, its just so wrong... you assume Ray Ray/Moore were jettisoned solely because of poor play - as if our OL play has been stellar - but it couldnt be because Ball and Heeney did well in practice and pre-season.. Teams promote/demote as much based on practice as they do on game performance, so in summation - DO YOU KNOW?! Also re: Moore, he sure doesn't look the same does he? Like he rushed back to the field because sitting out a year is a payday death sentence..

All I can do is cite *universal* draft profiles that put him as a depth guard at best that was ticketed for the 7th/UDFA, with very limited potential. And while those aren't ironclad right, I tend to take draftniks universally agreeing over fans just saying 'wait and see!' because they really believe in the GM. Reggie has been great, but not without flaw.

Hahaha, you are really showing the ridiculousness of your argument. Yes he had a few snap issues with Carr but not "the entire time" he was at C. And that is normal when a QB and C don't have a lot of practice time together and aren't use to each other. And notice it didn't hurt his rating in the 2nd and 3rd game he started.

So you acknowledge that Bergstrom was drafted as a zone blocking guard. In his first year he learns behind a high paid FA (Brisiel) and an entrenched vet (Cooper). And in his second year, all the way thru the beginning of the season, he was performing at starter level and slotted to be so. Then he is injured. The next year we change the system that we are running. But he is terrible and you equate his lack of starting now to being his fault or Reggie's fault for drafting him.


With my arguement using the LBs as an example...I wasn't saying that Ball and Heeney good play didn't contribute to Ray Rays and Moore departure but that they are given high grades because they had the opportunity to play and that Feli hasn't. I was saying you don't KNOW that he won't have the same kind of performance that they had when he gets his chance. So we have to wait and see. Instead of grading someone on something they haven't had a chance to prove yet.

To your PFF statments...I don't even know where to start. Almost everything you said was wrong or misrepresented. SMH

Shipley was actually the Colts starter at Center to start the season.
Shipley was ranked 14th among Centers. Exactly where Bergstrom is this year.
Shipley was actually allowed to walk from the Colts because he had problems with the coaching staff and because despite his solid play the first 4 games of the season he is down graded around the league for having short arms.
Shipley was almost immediately signed to be the backup C/interior lineman by the Cardnals and is in the same valuable role for them.

[FNQ]

Once you average out raw grade along with snaps (which is a more logical way to look at it, which is why Cal does so) where did Shipley rank among Cs in '14? I may have been thinking about 2013 though. Either way, he was graded really high. Speaking of so high, we had 4 muffed snaps in 2 weeks with Bergstrom at C. 4. As for why it doesn't hurt his rating, these things are attributed to the QB. How do I know? Afformentioned primer, because funny enough Shipley had the same issues. How did our offense look in those games, btw? PFF can't really account for calling out protections like a C is supposed to, either.

Tony Bergstrom prior to this year has never performed at starter level. That's just absurd.

Technically, we don't KNOW that Tyler Wilson wouldn't be a starter-level QB for the Raiders, either. INC! You are using strictly a 'pull' argument - that Ray Ray was cut because of bad play, thus giving Heeney the opportunity. Ditto Lofton and Ball. But like most things, it's push/pull - Heeney and Ball's talented pushed their way up as much as Ray Ray pulled himself out. Despite having a lot of troubles at RG right now, we aren't making the same move as we did with Lofton and Ray Ray.. why exactly? It's not like Webb is an ERFA, a RFA, or a multiyear contract. So clearly the staff has him ranked lower than someone who is grading out poorly, and obvious to the eye playing poorly. Why, when they've shown no issue pulling vets for rookies before?

And I answer: because Feliciano, the supposed immediate impact guy with versatility, isn't good enough yet. And while I have a lot of faith in Mike Tice maximizing what he can be, considering that the draft pick was universally panned as a low upside - ready now type, I feel there's plenty of justification saying that he's been a disappointment thus far. And you can disagree, that's fine. But it seems that any critique of the coaching or FO staff is met with volatile disagreement, so its becoming harder and harder to take each one seriously. We're still 6-7, ya know? This isn't New England or Carolina.

[FNQ]

I wonder why a guy who's been a consistent + at C can't seem to land a starting job among all the high paid negative players too. Just doesn't add up. He was a restricted FA, even the smallest tender would ensure matching rights for a guy who graded + at C and LG.

Anyone who follows PFF knows that C, QB, and WR are without question the 3 worst rankings in the PFF system. This is mainly due to protection calls, audibles, and hot routes respectively. So when its thrown out there that Bergstrom performs at a starter level, that's laughable.

[benchmobbin02]

Once you average out raw grade along with snaps (which is a more logical way to look at it, which is why Cal does so) where did Shipley rank among Cs in '14? I may have been thinking about 2013 though. Either way, he was graded really high. Speaking of so high, we had 4 muffed snaps in 2 weeks with Bergstrom at C. 4. As for why it doesn't hurt his rating, these things are attributed to the QB. How do I know? Afformentioned primer, because funny enough Shipley had the same issues. How did our offense look in those games, btw? PFF can't really account for calling out protections like a C is supposed to, either.

Now you're gonna rationalize and backpeddle on why you were completely wrong about Shipley...Yeah he was grade high, at 14th, right were I said he was and where Bergsrtom is now. If you have some other metric to show, show it!

I already said that Centers and QBs have trouble when they are just getting use to each other and how they play. Hudson and Carr had all offseason and preseason to get use to each other as appose to Bergstrom who got no-very few snaps with Carr prior to when he started subbing. Bergstrom has started 3 games this yr and he and Carr have had a C to QB snap 217 times. 4 muffs isn't what I'd write home about but if you were trying to throw dirt, that maybe where you had to go. Not to mention that 3 of those came in the Tenn game where the ball handling conditions were terrible.

Yes, I acknowledge that the offense suffered when Bergsrtom came in for Hudson as it should have. I'm under now illusion that Bergsrtom is an Allstar level player like the guy he was replacing but he isn't dog meat like you want to portray him. He has worked hard and become a good backup center. He actually performed better than most starters on most other teams in a style of football that he isn't built for and on short notice and in a position that he just learned that year. Plus more than 1 in my book. BTW, I don't expect him to be with us next year. I can see him going to a more zone style team and maybe even moving back to guard and really showing what he can do.

Tony Bergstrom prior to this year has never performed at starter level. That's just absurd.

Bergstrom started the 2013 offseason as the STARTING LG and kept that title and role all the way til his foot injury at the end of camp. Wrong again.

Technically, we don't KNOW that Tyler Wilson wouldn't be a starter-level QB for the Raiders, either. INC! You are using strictly a 'pull' argument - that Ray Ray was cut because of bad play, thus giving Heeney the opportunity. Ditto Lofton and Ball. But like most things, it's push/pull - Heeney and Ball's talented pushed their way up as much as Ray Ray pulled himself out.

I addressed this already by saying "I wasn't saying that Ball and Heeney's good play didn't contribute to Ray Rays and Moore departure but that they are given high grades because they had the opportunity to play and that Feli hasn't. I was saying you don't KNOW that he won't have the same kind of performance that they had when he gets his chance. So we have to wait and see. Instead of grading someone on something they haven't had a chance to prove yet."

Pretty simple. By the way, Moore could barely get on the field due to injury, Lofton is terrible in coverage and Ray Ray was an undisciplined player who was getting by on his athletic ability and energy, I mean he was hurting our own players and on pace to break records for flags haha. All were things that needed to be changed if we were gonna have any success on the defensive end. Luckily, Reggie added depth with drafting Ball and Heeney and they got their chance to shine. Then we had to go to the trash heap to find special teams replacements for them in Toomer and Alexander.

...Despite having a lot of troubles at RG right now, we aren't making the same move as we did with Lofton and Ray Ray.. why exactly? It's not like Webb is an ERFA, a RFA, or a multiyear contract. So clearly the staff has him ranked lower than someone who is grading out poorly, and obvious to the eye playing poorly. Why, when they've shown no issue pulling vets for rookies before?

And I answer: because Feliciano, the supposed immediate impact guy with versatility, isn't good enough yet. And while I have a lot of faith in Mike Tice maximizing what he can be, considering that the draft pick was universally panned as a low upside - ready now type, I feel there's plenty of justification saying that he's been a disappointment thus far. And you can disagree, that's fine. But it seems that any critique of the coaching or FO staff is met with volatile disagreement, so its becoming harder and harder to take each one seriously. We're still 6-7, ya know? This isn't New England or Carolina.

Here are the ways you have described Feli in the past 2 days when in fact all you know about him is what you read in PRE-DRAFT profiles - "the supposed immediate impact guy with versatility", "a low upside - ready now type", "a depth guard at best that was ticketed for the 7th/UDFA, with very limited potential", "he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside", "he was supposed to be a more ready-now type", "he doesn't have a ton of physical advantages, his technique was sketchy, he played heavier than he should, and his upside is limited", "...they're red shirting him to get him into NFL shape, which I'm fine with".

If he is all these things (which you pulled from profiles and aren't your own observations or assessments) and he is such a reach then why is it hard for you to believe that he is lower on the depth chart then Barnes at G and Bergstrom at C?

I'm grading based on value of pick, not a flat grade for each player.

Now if you are only grading on the value of the pick like you stated and you grade it an F because of where they drafted him but you say that it doesn't matter how guys that are picked after him performed, you're smoking something strong. Reggie was drafting for need not for the BPA. He assessed the interior linemen left on the board and choose Feli. He looked at his roster and noted that he had at least 5 guys he could count on so the guy he took, while being the best NFL prospect, didn't have to play right away and could learn and improve his body. Then he moved to other needs like OLB, ILB, Edge Rusher.

[FNQ]

Now you're gonna rationalize and backpeddle on why you were completely wrong about Shipley...Yeah he was grade high, at 14th, right were I said he was and where Bergsrtom is now. If you have some other metric to show, show it!

Finished Grade / snaps played. It's the simplest metric there is. Grades are cumulative, thus more snaps = more chances to get higher grades. If Steph Curry broke his leg right now, and Kevin Durant stayed healthy all season and scored 2400 in 82 games to Steph's 1200 in 30 games, who scored more per game? It's logical and not hard to understand, and it applies to PFF's scores as well

I already said that Centers and QBs have trouble when they are just getting use to each other and how they play. Hudson and Carr had all offseason and preseason to get use to each other as appose to Bergstrom who got no-very few snaps with Carr prior to when he started subbing. Bergstrom has started 3 games this yr and he and Carr have had a C to QB snap 217 times. 4 muffs isn't what I'd write home about but if you were trying to throw dirt, that maybe where you had to go. Not to mention that 3 of those came in the Tenn game where the ball handling conditions were terrible.

C's have 2 primary jobs: calling out protections and snapping the ball. If you can't do one, you shouldn't be a C, not even a backup. However the main point was that grades do not count these things. They count success in blocking based on perceived plays run.

Bergstrom started the 2013 offseason as the STARTING LG and kept that title and role all the way til his foot injury at the end of camp. Wrong again

Ok, there is a significant difference between 'starting quality' and being a starter on the worst line in football. Which the Raiders were in 2013.

Pretty simple. By the way, Moore could barely get on the field due to injury, Lofton is terrible in coverage and Ray Ray was an undisciplined player who was getting by on his athletic ability and energy, I mean he was hurting our own players and on pace to break records for flags haha. All were things that needed to be changed if we were gonna have any success on the defensive end. Luckily, Reggie added depth with drafting Ball and Heeney and they got their chance to shine. Then we had to go to the trash heap to find special teams replacements for them in Toomer and Alexander.

Well we can't run up the middle either, and a big part of that is the subpar run blocking on the right side. Considering Musgrave's penchant for slamming it up the middle, it stands to reason we need an upgrade there, now. So why is Webb still there, but Lofton and Ray Ray aren't? Or at least, Lofton wouldnt be if Ball were healthy..

Here are the ways you have described Feli in the past 2 days when in fact all you know about him is what you read in PRE-DRAFT profiles - "the supposed immediate impact guy with versatility", "a low upside - ready now type", "a depth guard at best that was ticketed for the 7th/UDFA, with very limited potential", "he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside", "he was supposed to be a more ready-now type", "he doesn't have a ton of physical advantages, his technique was sketchy, he played heavier than he should, and his upside is limited", "...they're red shirting him to get him into NFL shape, which I'm fine with".

If he is all these things (which you pulled from profiles and aren't your own observations or assessments) and he is such a reach then why is it hard for you to believe that he is lower on the depth chart then Barnes at G and Bergstrom at C?

I don't find it hard to believe at all. That's why I consider the pick an F. If he were better than those assessments, I think he wouldn't be lower on the depth chart than those 2.

Now if you are only grading on the value of the pick like you stated and you grade it an F because of where they drafted him but you say that it doesn't matter how guys that are picked after him performed, you're smoking something strong. Reggie was drafting for need not for the BPA. He assessed the interior linemen left on the board and choose Feli. He looked at his roster and noted that he had at least 5 guys he could count on so the guy he took, while being the best NFL prospect, didn't have to play right away and could learn and improve his body. Then he moved to other needs like OLB, ILB, Edge Rusher.

[/quote]

Well don't mistake your confusion with it being hypocritical. You said no other guards drafted later than Feliciano were doing better than him. OK. But are players doing better than him that we're drafted later? Yes. If Reggie is drafting for need on a team that has needs at most positions, then he has a poor strategy. I sincerely doubt he does draft for need, because at what point did he say "We need a backup OL who doesnt dress this year!" If he felt Feliciano was the best NFL prospect when he selected, he was wrong. No one bats 1.000, and Reggie surely isn't the outlier. But it seems that you have a tough time admitting that. Funny picture, btw, when most of your post is a product of your own misunderstanding

[benchmobbin02]

You still never showed what those players grades were compared to other centers according to the metric you brought up...I'm waiting...

But that wasn't the point you brought up initially. First, you we're whining about the snaps and I shot that down so you had to find something else and the fact is he wasn't that he wasn't bad at protection calls makes you're arguments totally moot. He wasn't what we are you use too but it is relative when taking into account the source isn't a all pro center but a guy that just started playing the position and he graded out well. And seeing as you can't really measure how someone calls out protections and you have to take into account the different variables of the opponents, conditions and practice time, we take the grades that we have to give us an picture of how a guy did and the rest it the eye test.

Yeah, but we turned in the worst line in football AFTER Bergstrom was injured. Not saying it was because of him or not but he wasn't involved in the line being graded the worst so your point there is also moot.

I already explained why he wouldn't start over Barnes and Bergstrom and since you once again got shutdown there you had to search for another reason to bash a guy that I have already stated the the team is bringing along slowly to get him ready for the NFL. Some guys need development.

Now you're just repeating the same things over and over again. I have explained my positions. Bergstrom was starter quality in 2013 when he was in to start at LG in the zone blocking system. You said he wasn't. You were wrong. He has been better than most other centers in the areas we CAN measure in the games he has played. BTW, if you grade all the centers in the league in just weeks 10, 12 and 13 Bergstrom is ranked 6th in the league.

For Feli it is simple. He hasn't played yet so if you were going to grade him as a player it would be an INC. That a fact.

[FNQ]

You haven't shot down anything - Shipley graded out 14th despite taking 1/3 of the snaps most starting Cs take. I'm concerned that you can't connect the difference between a guy who was +5.7 in 440 snaps being more effective (supposedly according to PFF) than a guy who was +9.5 in 1000 snaps. It's simple math, how can I explain that any better? How did you ever counter that?

That we 'turned into' the worst starting line.. that's a great one. Bergstrom was not going to change anything, and he was competing for a starting role, not gifted one. And in case you forgot, Lucas Nix actually won the starting job over Bergstrom, and Bergstrom only got it back because Briesel got injured. Not exactly earning his way into the vaunted line. Starter quality when someone gets injured, actually = backup quality, doesn't it? These are actually facts, not opinions presented as facts like you do.

Fact is, Bergstrom muffed snaps, our offensive line suffered, and we got minimal push on the inside. He's a 29 year old backup and not a great one, and one that likely is gone next year. Feliciano was a documented reach that was supposed to have minimal upside and whose saving grace as a 7th round pick was that he was versatile and experienced enough to jump into a power situation and be an immediate backup, and he hasn't. And our sub-replacement level incumbent RG and another player (who might be better than Webb) Barnes, are active ahead of him. So while you can feel free to cling to very incomplete grades which the graders themselves admit are not particularly accurate for that position, there is plenty of reasons to grade someone the way I did, and I don't have to create facts (see Bergstrom the starting caliber G above) to justify the position - I just rely on the unanimous opinion of experts and good old fashioned common sense. And at this point, there's little to be said in the way of explaining this to you if you haven't been able to grasp the things I've said thus far.

[Quake Griffin]

Vic Tafur ✔@VicTafur
I expect Feliciano to start at right guard and Webb to move over to tackle Sunday. #Raiders
5:11 PM - 17 Dec 2015


LOL

[benchmobbin02]

Wow! Haha

[benchmobbin02]

And at this point, there's little to be said in the way of explaining this to you if you haven't been able to grasp the things I've said thus far.

Then why are you still talking?

Feli gets an INC not a F til we have a big enough sample size to grade him.

Bergstrom has shown that he had starter ability in the past and showed this year that he can fill in nicely at C, performing better then most other centers in the 3 weeks that he started. And that is measuring only those 3 weeks since you can't seem to accept his high grade any other way. Period

[FNQ]

Vic Tafur ✔@VicTafur
I expect Feliciano to start at right guard and Webb to move over to tackle Sunday. #Raiders
5:11 PM - 17 Dec 2015


LOL

Lol thats unreal!
Great news frankly... And Feli sent out his own tweet about this week too so I believe it. Hopefully he shows out, but if hes leapfrogging Barnes then he must have shown out in practice. But why keep starting Webb over Barnes?

[FNQ]

And at this point, there's little to be said in the way of explaining this to you if you haven't been able to grasp the things I've said thus far.

Then why are you still talking?

Feli gets an INC not a F til we have a big enough sample size to grade him.

Bergstrom has shown that he had starter ability in the past and showed this year that he can fill in nicely at C, performing better then most other centers in the 3 weeks that he started. And that is measuring only those 3 weeks since you can't seem to accept his high grade any other way. Period

How is it starter ability when he was a backup until injuries hit? Did Miles Burris have starter ability too? If so, the moniker is useless

[benchmobbin02]

Already explained it.

[FNQ]

I must have missed how Bergstrom losing the TC battle to Lucas Nix + Mike Briesel (who both have never made it past 1st cuts with another team since being let go) on the worst line in the league makes him starter quality. I guess backups become starter quality when starters get hurt by your definition, which like I said really reduces the efficacy of the phrase.

I see that you said Bergstrom was the starting LG all through an offseason.. but that was wrong. Along with implying that we were running a ZBS 2 years ago - we've been a PBS team since 2013.

http://www.silverandblackpride.com/2013/8/30/4677960/tony-bergstrom-to-miss-some-time-with-significant-foot-injury

[benchmobbin02]

Still a starter, which you said he never was and never played at a starter level, which he did.

[Twinkie defense]

Hopefully Feliciano doesn't poop himself tomorrow.

Re. Bergstrom being a ZBS player, IDK why we keep a guy around for years who is not a system fit - Reggie had Mark Davis eat Briesel's money because he was not a system fit. Great that Bergstrom was able to fill in OK at center for a couple days but he seems to have "scholarship" written all over him. You can't find an undrafted guy for the practice squad to snap the ball in an emergency?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[benchmobbin02]

It was a combination of things that kept Bergsrtom on the roster IMO since none of us really knows. He is signed to a cheap rookie deal and still has upside and is a young athletic olinemen that has adapted to the system change by learning new skills.

Yes, we could have brought in someone else to "snap the ball" and we have. Remember Boothe in 2014 and Gurode in 2013. They both were brought in as back up interior linemen. Both were let go after one season even tho they had more experience. Now whether it was because Reggie wanted to keep Bergstrom on as a "scholarship" player, because of salary cap concerns, because he had out performed them or because they didn't provide anymore upside, we don't know, but he remains and they don't.

So the real answer to your question is we could find other guys to be backup center but Bergstrom is who we choose for this season. Not sure why some are so opposed to the guy. Did he sleep with all your wives or something. It's not like we extended his deal or anything. If we did I would have things to say about that too but it really it's that unusual on an NFL team.

[Twinkie defense]

I don't hate Bergstrom, I just think it's curious he's still around. My theory is Reggie was whiffing the draft and free agency so much at the start that he couldn't afford to admit failure on another pick at that time.

I've loved Gabe Jackson from the start, but Reggie seems to have a number of draft misses on the o-line.

The team has improved enough now, and we have a few difference makers, that Reggie can keep Bergstrom on scholarship if he wants - again, it's just curious. You don't keep a guy around for years just because he's cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[benchmobbin02]

I don't hate Bergstrom, I just think it's curious he's still around. My theory is Reggie was whiffing the draft and free agency so much at the start that he couldn't afford to admit failure on another pick at that time.

I've loved Gabe Jackson from the start, but Reggie seems to have a number of draft misses on the o-line.

The team has improved enough now, and we have a few difference makers, that Reggie can keep Bergstrom on scholarship if he wants - again, it's just curious. You don't keep a guy around for years just because he's cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I don't think that even comes into Reggie's thought process. At every turn he has provided competition along the line and the guys that work the best for the team in the view Reggie, evaluating staff and the coaches is the guy who plays and is kept. Obviously that has been Bergstrom in the different roles or he wouldn't be still on the roster.

We can agree to disagree about Reggie motivations on why he makes certain chooses but we can't read his mind so it's all opinion. But I think you're right, you don't keep a guy just because he is cheap but because he is signed to a cheap rookie deal and still has upside and is an athletic olinemen and has adapted to the system change by learning a new position. All of those things together are part of the decision making process IMO.

[Quake Griffin]

FNQ.

Still an F for Feliciano?