Value of Kyrie Irving

[R-DAWG]

The Pheonix idea of a deal built around an Irving for Bledsoe swap is very very interesting. But Cleveland won't want a pick, they would want players who can help them compete this year. And I'm not a Goodwin fan.

I think Cleveland asks for Booker and PJ Tucker but they would have to send more value back to Pheonix.

[zubi_anaba]

The Pheonix idea of a deal built around an Irving for Bledsoe swap is very very interesting. But Cleveland won't want a pick, they would want players who can help them compete this year. And I'm not a Goodwin fan.

I think Cleveland asks for Booker and PJ Tucker but they would have to send more value back to Pheonix.

Kyrie is a top 10 player and budding superstar! Cavs also happen to have all the role players they need. Delly, MoWill, SHump, Jr, RJeff, TT, Varejoa and MOsgov. Thats 8 deep in legit role players. All of them fill specific holes in a team with 3 all stars.

Cavs have zero need for more role players. If they are trading Kyrie, they doing it to upgrade and consolidate talent some more not downgrade talent and get more role players.

[DeathLineup]

The Pheonix idea of a deal built around an Irving for Bledsoe swap is very very interesting. But Cleveland won't want a pick, they would want players who can help them compete this year. And I'm not a Goodwin fan.

I think Cleveland asks for Booker and PJ Tucker but they would have to send more value back to Pheonix.

Having to sacrifice Booker would make Suns back out immediately. It is too much to lose Bledsoe and Booker for an often injured budding star. Furthermore, Booker is a better complement for Irving than Knight if the deal goes. Including Warren in the deal instead of Booker would make more sense for Suns. The inclusion of decent young guy in this deal is only a bonus for Cavaliers. The thing is that they get a point guard that is more reliable to be healthy than Irving while improving their defense and keep the space open because they could hit threes.

[R-DAWG]

The Pheonix idea of a deal built around an Irving for Bledsoe swap is very very interesting. But Cleveland won't want a pick, they would want players who can help them compete this year. And I'm not a Goodwin fan.

I think Cleveland asks for Booker and PJ Tucker but they would have to send more value back to Pheonix.

Kyrie is a top 10 player and budding superstar! Cavs also happen to have all the role players they need. Delly, MoWill, SHump, Jr, RJeff, TT, Varejoa and MOsgov. Thats 8 deep in legit role players. All of them fill specific holes in a team with 3 all stars.

Cavs have zero need for more role players. If they are trading Kyrie, they doing it to upgrade and consolidate talent some more not downgrade talent and get more role players.

Kyrie isn't a top 10 player. He might not even be top 5 at his own position right now. I mean Curry, Westbrook and Paul are all better point guards and i'd probably take Wall and Lillard over Kyrie right now.

He has top 10 upside and is very young. But there are major concerns with his health, defense, and weather he's more of a scorer than a play maker. While Blesdose does not have as much upside and is a few years older, the difference today isn't as extreme as your making it out.

Also, IMO Cleveland would benefit from having another 3 and D wing who could play SG and SF. The role players you have are fine but we all know you can't count on JR Smith and Shumpert can't shoot.

[jbk1234]

If you can get Bledsoe, Goodwin and a first round pick? Yeah I'd do that.


Don't forget the Bledsoe-Rich Paul/Lebron connection.

Given the fact that the Cavs just paid TT a whole bunch of money, I doubt they forgot. Not sure that would be a selling point though.

Cavs wouldn't do this. I mean in order to break up a big three that is a legit contender for a championship, you need to do more than offer "fair value." You've got to offer an overpay that's heavy on win-now talent. Plus, where do the Suns go after this trade? A Kyrie/Knight back court isn't complimentary, the rest of their team isn't good enough defensively to build around Kyrie, and they just traded their 1st round pick.

Cavaliers with Irving in the line up does not scare me at all as a Warriors fan. Warriors would have a better chance to beat Cavaliers with Irving in the line up rather than he is on the bench. Warriors could expose them on every time because he is a liability on defense. Yet if they put Conley or Bledsoe on Curry then it is a whole different conversation. Cavaliers gave Warriors a real fight last finals because they deployed Dellavedova on Curry. Dellavedova is a good enough defender to disturb Curry's rhythm. Imagine having a way way better Dellavedova (offensively and defensively) in Conley or Bledsoe to matchup against Curry. Basically, Conley and Bledsoe are both the "ultra 3 and D" type of player, which they could defend very well and doing more than just shoot threes on offense.

Suns is always gunning for a star like what they tried to do with signing Chandler to lure out Aldridge. I think they would love to have a chance to obtain Irving then build around him. Irving could help them attract upper tier free agents. Then, Knight could be a valuable trade chip to improve another position.

Cavs were one bad LBJ hero-ball shot away from going up 1-0 on GS with Kyrie in the line up. They lost that series due to fatigue. If you aren't concerned about facing a healthy Cavs team in the Finals with Kyrie ready to go, then I question your judgment.

[zubi_anaba]

The Pheonix idea of a deal built around an Irving for Bledsoe swap is very very interesting. But Cleveland won't want a pick, they would want players who can help them compete this year. And I'm not a Goodwin fan.

I think Cleveland asks for Booker and PJ Tucker but they would have to send more value back to Pheonix.

Kyrie is a top 10 player and budding superstar! Cavs also happen to have all the role players they need. Delly, MoWill, SHump, Jr, RJeff, TT, Varejoa and MOsgov. Thats 8 deep in legit role players. All of them fill specific holes in a team with 3 all stars.

Cavs have zero need for more role players. If they are trading Kyrie, they doing it to upgrade and consolidate talent some more not downgrade talent and get more role players.

Kyrie isn't a top 10 player. He might not even be top 5 at his own position right now. I mean Curry, Westbrook and Paul are all better point guards and i'd probably take Wall and Lillard over Kyrie right now.

Hey i guess you entitle to ur opinion but I havent seen any NBA analysts that has had Wall or Lillard over Kyrie. I mean Simmons last yr ranked Kyrie top 10 most valueable player in the league. But again your entitled to you opinion

He has top 10 upside and is very young. But there are major concerns with his health, defense, and weather he's more of a scorer than a play maker. While Blesdose does not have as much upside and is a few years older, the difference today isn't as extreme as your making it out.

I know for sure Bledsoe isnt capable of taking over a game like Kyrie did vs the Spurs and Blazers last year. That sort of top end explosive talent makes a huge diff in PO series esp when you already have a plethora of legit role players around him. Its also crucial given how much he complements Lebrons game. Same cant be said about Bledsoe

Also, IMO Cleveland would benefit from having another 3 and D wing who could play SG and SF. The role players you have are fine but we all know you can't count on JR Smith and Shumpert can't shoot.

Sorry but which of one of Phoenixs current wings are better than Jr or SHump???Tucker, Goodwin, Seems??? Booker has talent but he is years away from contributing to a title contender and hence is of no use to the Cavs! U claim Shump cant shoot but Tucker shoots the 3 ball at pretty much the same clip as Shump while being a worse defender and 5 yrs older. Jr is a solid defender while being significantly better shooter than all of the above

Point is Cavs have SHump and Jr fill in the SG minutes effectively for cavs while also being long enough to fill in at the 3 if needed. Lebron takes the bulk of the SF minutes anyway and Cavs equally have Richard Jefferson. They dont need any more wing role players

[DeathLineup]

Given the fact that the Cavs just paid TT a whole bunch of money, I doubt they forgot. Not sure that would be a selling point though.

Cavs wouldn't do this. I mean in order to break up a big three that is a legit contender for a championship, you need to do more than offer "fair value." You've got to offer an overpay that's heavy on win-now talent. Plus, where do the Suns go after this trade? A Kyrie/Knight back court isn't complimentary, the rest of their team isn't good enough defensively to build around Kyrie, and they just traded their 1st round pick.

Cavaliers with Irving in the line up does not scare me at all as a Warriors fan. Warriors would have a better chance to beat Cavaliers with Irving in the line up rather than he is on the bench. Warriors could expose them on every time because he is a liability on defense. Yet if they put Conley or Bledsoe on Curry then it is a whole different conversation. Cavaliers gave Warriors a real fight last finals because they deployed Dellavedova on Curry. Dellavedova is a good enough defender to disturb Curry's rhythm. Imagine having a way way better Dellavedova (offensively and defensively) in Conley or Bledsoe to matchup against Curry. Basically, Conley and Bledsoe are both the "ultra 3 and D" type of player, which they could defend very well and doing more than just shoot threes on offense.

Suns is always gunning for a star like what they tried to do with signing Chandler to lure out Aldridge. I think they would love to have a chance to obtain Irving then build around him. Irving could help them attract upper tier free agents. Then, Knight could be a valuable trade chip to improve another position.

Cavs were one bad LBJ hero-ball shot away from going up 1-0 on GS with Kyrie in the line up. They lost that series due to fatigue. If you aren't concerned about facing a healthy Cavs team in the Finals with Kyrie ready to go, then I question your judgment.

Figuring out how to expose Irving's defensive flaws is easier than figuring out how to set Curry free from Dellavedova annoying defense. If Irving is on the court then Dellavedova is not. I like Warriors chance better if they play team with less defensive aces. Conley proved that he could take over those games in Warriors-Grizzlies series last playoffs. If Grizzlies had another floor spacer that time to play Allen's minutes then maybe the Warriors was done that round. Imagine having Conley with all the supports available in Cavaliers.

[Fo-Real]

Suns fans shaking our heads, if kyrie wasn't hurt every year, all of the info presented is right, but he is. Even with his injury history, a Bled swap might be a yes, but with his injury history is the gap between he and bled cost the suns Bled plus a first and a great prospect (booker, witch is basically two firsts)? Suns would immediately have to trade Knight too. All in all I think the Suns say no.

[Texas Chuck]

LOL. Anybody notice the guy that started this thread is a warriors fan?

there is no relevance here. Nothing about that OP remotely suggests he is trolling Cavs fans.

[zubi_anaba]

Cavaliers with Irving in the line up does not scare me at all as a Warriors fan. Warriors would have a better chance to beat Cavaliers with Irving in the line up rather than he is on the bench. Warriors could expose them on every time because he is a liability on defense. Yet if they put Conley or Bledsoe on Curry then it is a whole different conversation. Cavaliers gave Warriors a real fight last finals because they deployed Dellavedova on Curry. Dellavedova is a good enough defender to disturb Curry's rhythm. Imagine having a way way better Dellavedova (offensively and defensively) in Conley or Bledsoe to matchup against Curry. Basically, Conley and Bledsoe are both the "ultra 3 and D" type of player, which they could defend very well and doing more than just shoot threes on offense.

Suns is always gunning for a star like what they tried to do with signing Chandler to lure out Aldridge. I think they would love to have a chance to obtain Irving then build around him. Irving could help them attract upper tier free agents. Then, Knight could be a valuable trade chip to improve another position.

Cavs were one bad LBJ hero-ball shot away from going up 1-0 on GS with Kyrie in the line up. They lost that series due to fatigue. If you aren't concerned about facing a healthy Cavs team in the Finals with Kyrie ready to go, then I question your judgment.

Figuring out how to expose Irving's defensive flaws is easier than figuring out how to set Curry free from Dellavedova annoying defense. If Irving is on the court then Dellavedova is not. I like Warriors chance better if they play team with less defensive aces. Conley proved that he could take over those games in Warriors-Grizzlies series last playoffs. If Grizzlies had another floor spacer that time to play Allen's minutes then maybe the Warriors was done that round. Imagine having Conley with all the supports available in Cavaliers.

You have to wonder why Steph couldnt out play Kyrie in their Feburary match up or Game 1 of the finals despite Kyrie being hobbled???

[Texas Chuck]

I cant believe how much you guys underrate Irving. Dude is an incredible compliment to Lebron and had a fantastic season last year. He's a huge part of their team and is nowhere near this defensive sieve you guys all make him out to be (maybe 2 years ago, but not last year). There's only a handful of players I'd trade Irving for and those teams wouldnt make those trades.

Lol at trading him for Conley/Bledsoe/Noel+Bradley and thinking it makes the Cavs better. It doesnt

Line up of Irving-Shumpert-James-Love-Thompson would give up too much on the defensive end. Conley or Bledsoe instead of Irving would make them more balanced on defense. Only Love is the total minus defender. Offensively, they would not lose that much with Love getting back to his top performance. Plus as you know, Irving is awfully freaking injury prone. Conley or Bledsoe are way way more reliable health and fitness wise.

It's really telling the GS fans keep coming up with these ridiculous trade Kyrie scenarios or how Cavs would be somehow worse with Kyrie and Klove. First of all just ignoring the fact that Cavs effectively had a 7 man rotation through the whole series, adding 2 competent bball players in the FC and BC would have made a huge diff. You then add the fact that one of those players is their second best player plus a budding superstar while the other is an allstar big that can post up and stretch the floor.

Dubs fans really have short memories of Cavs blowing them out in Feburary with both squads fully healthy. Oh well am sure they wil be reminded shortly of how much worse Cavs are with Kyrie and Klove on the floor

One things for sure is that dubs fans insecurities are real.

Again the insecurites seem to be coming from Cavs fans itt who are taking/making the discussion personal. If you don't have the maturity to handle discussions involving Cavs players, maybe don't open the thread? But we are not going to attack other fanbases like this. Period.

[jbk1234]

LOL. Anybody notice the guy that started this thread is a warriors fan?

there is no relevance here. Nothing about that OP remotely suggests he is trolling Cavs fans.

From the OP:

"Irving is basically an offense only player. He is still very young and locked for another five years. He could explode anytime and give us random 30 or 40 points game. Yet he is injury prone, does not assist that often for a point guard standard and a mess defensively. Looking at those facts, what is the market value of Irving?"

Perhaps "us" is a typo. But I also wondered whether the ball boy forgot that his avatar had a GS insignia under it.

[Texas Chuck]

LOL. Anybody notice the guy that started this thread is a warriors fan?

there is no relevance here. Nothing about that OP remotely suggests he is trolling Cavs fans.

From the OP:

"Irving is basically an offense only player. He is still very young and locked for another five years. He could explode anytime and give us random 30 or 40 points game. Yet he is injury prone, does not assist that often for a point guard standard and a mess defensively. Looking at those facts, what is the market value of Irving?"

Perhaps "us" is a typo. But I also wondered whether the ball boy forgot that his avatar had a GS insignia under it.

I don't think he meant anything by the "us"--just worded it poorly. And while I wouldn't describe Kyrie in those exact terms, some of his criticisms of him are not inaccurate.

[DeathLineup]

Cavs were one bad LBJ hero-ball shot away from going up 1-0 on GS with Kyrie in the line up. They lost that series due to fatigue. If you aren't concerned about facing a healthy Cavs team in the Finals with Kyrie ready to go, then I question your judgment.

Figuring out how to expose Irving's defensive flaws is easier than figuring out how to set Curry free from Dellavedova annoying defense. If Irving is on the court then Dellavedova is not. I like Warriors chance better if they play team with less defensive aces. Conley proved that he could take over those games in Warriors-Grizzlies series last playoffs. If Grizzlies had another floor spacer that time to play Allen's minutes then maybe the Warriors was done that round. Imagine having Conley with all the supports available in Cavaliers.

You have to wonder why Steph couldnt out play Kyrie in their Feburary match up or Game 1 of the finals despite Kyrie being hobbled???

Yep they lost both times and that's why it's written figuring out, which means making adjustment to prevent another mistakes. Never questioned Irving firepower offensively, just thinking Cavaliers would be scarier if they have another great defender. LeBron always performs best when he is surrounded by 3 and D type of guys.

[mademan]

Figuring out how to expose Irving's defensive flaws is easier than figuring out how to set Curry free from Dellavedova annoying defense. If Irving is on the court then Dellavedova is not. I like Warriors chance better if they play team with less defensive aces. Conley proved that he could take over those games in Warriors-Grizzlies series last playoffs. If Grizzlies had another floor spacer that time to play Allen's minutes then maybe the Warriors was done that round. Imagine having Conley with all the supports available in Cavaliers.

You have to wonder why Steph couldnt out play Kyrie in their Feburary match up or Game 1 of the finals despite Kyrie being hobbled???

Yep they lost both times and that's why it's written figuring out, which means making adjustment to prevent another mistakes. Never questioned Irving firepower offensively, just thinking Cavaliers would be scarier if they have another great defender. LeBron always performs best when he is surrounded by 3 and D type of guys.

Cavs won the February game. And the secondary reason for having Kyrie is that it makes GSW guard him with Klay meaning Steph is guarding JR/Iman. While neither of those 2 are great offensive players, having them output like they did against CHI/ATL is huuuge for the Cavs (random 15 point games here and there)

[zubi_anaba]

Figuring out how to expose Irving's defensive flaws is easier than figuring out how to set Curry free from Dellavedova annoying defense. If Irving is on the court then Dellavedova is not. I like Warriors chance better if they play team with less defensive aces. Conley proved that he could take over those games in Warriors-Grizzlies series last playoffs. If Grizzlies had another floor spacer that time to play Allen's minutes then maybe the Warriors was done that round. Imagine having Conley with all the supports available in Cavaliers.

You have to wonder why Steph couldnt out play Kyrie in their Feburary match up or Game 1 of the finals despite Kyrie being hobbled???

Yep they lost both times and that's why it's written figuring out, which means making adjustment to prevent another mistakes. Never questioned Irving firepower offensively, just thinking Cavaliers would be scarier if they have another great defender. LeBron always performs best when he is surrounded by 3 and D type of guys.

I think its pretty telling that Dubs got blown out in February while both teams were healthy. In the game 1 Dubs needed a Kyrie injury and OT to win. Anyway eventually Dubs had to ditch their normal rotation to beat Cavs. They went all out small ball knowing fully well that no matter how much the got beat up inside by Cavs size, Lebron was Cavs only legit scoring threat and hence Cavs would never score enough to keep up. I know for sure Kyrie could more that make up for the scoring deficit and hence making Lebron and all Cavs players less tired and more efficient. Not to talk of Love's contribution. ALso pushing the ball worked for the Dubs given Cavs were playing with a 7 man rotation.

ANyway its all good. They got a game on friday. You will def see how much worse Cavs are with Love and Kyrie

[jbk1234]

there is no relevance here. Nothing about that OP remotely suggests he is trolling Cavs fans.

From the OP:

"Irving is basically an offense only player. He is still very young and locked for another five years. He could explode anytime and give us random 30 or 40 points game. Yet he is injury prone, does not assist that often for a point guard standard and a mess defensively. Looking at those facts, what is the market value of Irving?"

Perhaps "us" is a typo. But I also wondered whether the ball boy forgot that his avatar had a GS insignia under it.

I don't think he meant anything by the "us"--just worded it poorly. And while I wouldn't describe Kyrie in those exact terms, some of his criticisms of him are not inaccurate.

There are two ways to read the OP: (1) He made a mistake with the use of his pronoun, he's actually believes that the Cavs would be better without Kyrie, and as a GS fan he wants to ensure that the Cavs are best potential adversary they can be; or (2) he was attempting to pose as a concerned Cavs fan and didn't realize his slip was showing. I don't think the later interpretation is any less likely than the former. I mean if a Cavs fan wanted to explore Curry's trade value out his first day back from injury based on a putative concern that GS plays better without him, eyebrows would go up.

[Texas Chuck]

The difference is Steph Curry is the very best player in the world. Kyrie is not. He is much more the equivilant of Klay Thompson than he is Steph Curry.

If he made this thread about Lebron it would have be locked in half a millisecond just like a Curry one would be. But I think its not unreasonable to speculate on Kyrie--tho I wouldn't be looking to move him either and certainly not until I gave this group a chance.

[DeathLineup]

From the OP:

"Irving is basically an offense only player. He is still very young and locked for another five years. He could explode anytime and give us random 30 or 40 points game. Yet he is injury prone, does not assist that often for a point guard standard and a mess defensively. Looking at those facts, what is the market value of Irving?"

Perhaps "us" is a typo. But I also wondered whether the ball boy forgot that his avatar had a GS insignia under it.

I don't think he meant anything by the "us"--just worded it poorly. And while I wouldn't describe Kyrie in those exact terms, some of his criticisms of him are not inaccurate.

There are two ways to read the OP: (1) He made a mistake with the use of his pronoun, he's actually believes that the Cavs would be better without Kyrie, and as a GS fan he wants to ensure that the Cavs are best potential adversary they can be; or (2) he was attempting to pose as a concerned Cavs fan and didn't realize his slip was showing. I don't think the later interpretation is any less likely than the former. I mean if a Cavs fan wanted to explore Curry's trade value out his first day back from injury based on a putative concern that GS plays better without him, eyebrows would go up.

Meant no harm. Used to watch Heat games during the big 3 era and personally believes that LeBron led team always performs better with line up full of 3 and Ds. Irving does not fit that model yet Conley and Bledsoe fit.

[jbk1234]

The difference is Steph Curry is the very best player in the world. Kyrie is not. He is much more the equivilant of Klay Thompson than he is Steph Curry.

If he made this thread about Lebron it would have be locked in half a millisecond just like a Curry one would be. But I think its not unreasonable to speculate on Kyrie--tho I wouldn't be looking to move him either and certainly not until I gave this group a chance.

I wasn't asking for lock just explaining the reaction of some of the Cavs fans. I actually said I'd trade Kyrie for Giannis and MCW in the Giannis thread. But unless there are real issues with Kyrie freezing out Love, that's what it would take. LBJ doesn't want to carry teams anymore. He's getting to the point in his career where he wouldn't mind being the second option on most nights.