Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

when he was a FA he was courted by the smartest teams in the league. SA wanted him badly. kobe gets on everybody. it's his nature. Pau is limited defensively. but he tries. and he has lost athleticism at 34. but is a future HofFamer. the real crime is when you are in your mid late 20s athletic and don't try.

Well yeah, I would amend your first post to say, "Pau's skills have never been questioned".

Regardless how tough or how much effort he gives into defense, or whether you believe its simply lack of athleticism there, he still managed to be a great player, so of course that's why people wanted him.

I do though think that he is a guy that needs team harmony and motivation to do his best. This kind of spiraling down atmosphere won't be good for his buy in. It was much worse in LA his last two seasons, and he had 2 of his worst years amidst that.

[pb-ceo]

jimmy is the face of the new bulls. loved by everybody in FO. they basically opened up the vault for him and said how much you want? in some sense buckets is speaking for the organization. players need to respond and start trying like buckets does. it should not matter whether your coach is a yeller or sits there and never opens up his mouth.

this message was directed at the players. you can see the lack of effort nightly on the big screen. that's not on the coach. it's a new era where players are so comfortable now, it takes a special personality like a kobe like a bron like a buckets to still have burning will to win. buckets wants everybody on the team to have that desire. players who bring it on both sides of the ball have every right to speak their mind. it's how you win rings.

[JeremyB0001]

Right now, the Bulls have played 15 home games (11-4) and 10 road games (4-6). That obviously changes going forward. They have a point differential of +1.0 (10th in conference) and are 0.5 games out of the 9th spot. The metrics right now point to Chicago MISSING THE PLAYOFFS! The status quo is not good and someone has to do something about it.

I agree that the status quo is problematic but I think you're overselling it a bit. I don't think there are good metrics out there that point to the Bulls missing the playoffs. SRS has the team 7th in the East and that looks strictly at teams' performance this season, which can be misleading, especially this early in the season, when there are possible flukes such as Charlotte profiling as the 7th best team in the entire league. The most insightful metrics consider preseason expectations. One that does that, ESPN's BPI, has the Bulls 10th in the NBA and 6th in the East.

[RebuildaBulls]

If Butler is trying to make himself a leader by example on effort, he is guilty of dogging it at times also especially early in games, and a huge reason the offense stagnates. Hes Not the lead by example type either

[GetBuLLish]

It's insane how quickly people will turn on a player the moment he becomes critical of the FO. And let's be clear, Butler's comments about Hoiberg were a critique on the FO more than anything.

The emotional attachment to the FO is almost frightening.

[fleet]

jimmy is the face of the new bulls. loved by everybody in FO. they basically opened up the vault for him and said how much you want? in some sense buckets is speaking for the organization. players need to respond and start trying like buckets does. it should not matter whether your coach is a yeller or sits there and never opens up his mouth.

this message was directed at the players. you can see the lack of effort nightly on the big screen. that's not on the coach. it's a new era where players are so comfortable now, it takes a special personality like a kobe like a bron like a buckets to still have burning will to win. buckets wants everybody on the team to have that desire. players who bring it on both sides of the ball have every right to speak their mind. it's how you win rings.

The bottom line is, You as a FO, you don't and can't make everybody like each other's style or approach. What you can do, is put people on the roster that will do. their. jobs. Problems fix themselves then. The message is directed at the FO if you think about it. Up to them to receive that.

[Rerisen]

Jokes are usually funny because people know they have a basis in truth. That one was 'funny' because everyone knew KeBo stunk. The joke would not have been funny if Jimmy was our SG.

You made it seem like Rose was being interviewed after a game and said the team needed a SG and that even Barack Obama would be better than Bogans.

Not one person ever took it as throwing Bogans under the boss. And it's extremely dishonest to say otherwise.

You're wrong, some did. There was a discussion on the board after it which was similar to the one we are having about Butler's comments. While you might have thought it was nothing, some others felt it wasn't being a great teammate.

Of course that little footnote pales in comparison to ACL-Gate, so doesn't negate my point regardless.

And that point was to forestall the silly brigade that have been waiting for any chance to jump on Mr Perfect on the board, Butler, because they have been frustrated defending Rose for so long. It's just a crude angle to respond to the issue with, as a chance to play up an old partisan split.

Lets not use this to try and pretend this is a case of why one guy is so much better than the other.

If you can't see what I was doing, then you must identify with the post I challenged. That Rose is a "True Leader." Yeah right. This team doesn't have a true leader. If anything, they just fired him.

[RebuildaBulls]

It's insane how quickly people will turn on a player the moment he becomes critical of the FO. And let's be clear, Butler's comments about Hoiberg were a critique on the FO more than anything.

The emotional attachment to the FO is almost frightening.

There are no emotional attachments I see, players are accountable for stupidity also. We have stupid management and stupid players.

[TheGOATRises007]

jimmy is the face of the new bulls. loved by everybody in FO. they basically opened up the vault for him and said how much you want? in some sense buckets is speaking for the organization. players need to respond and start trying like buckets does. it should not matter whether your coach is a yeller or sits there and never opens up his mouth.

this message was directed at the players. you can see the lack of effort nightly on the big screen. that's not on the coach. it's a new era where players are so comfortable now, it takes a special personality like a kobe like a bron like a buckets to still have burning will to win. buckets wants everybody on the team to have that desire. players who bring it on both sides of the ball have every right to speak their mind. it's how you win rings.

That still doesn't mean it was okay to criticize the coach publicly like that.

There is no defense for Butler here.

He picked one of the worst times to do it as well. A back to back loss after a 4OT game? Maybe he shouldn't let Melo outplay him like that next time if he's trying to act the superstar+leader on this team.

[Stratmaster]

Jimmy Butler's public personality has changed dramatically in the last 12 months. It has nothing to do with 5 years of busting his ass. He has "arrived". TV shows about his aquarium, front page of the sports mags etc. Oddly, he isn't as good as most players who get this attention, and it has gone to his head.

We've been through the personnel discussions and "who would you have traded for via what assets" discussions in many threads. I agree that the Bulls should have traded for a 3 in the offseason. Unless you can say specifically who they would have traded and who they would have gotten THAT is the "pie in the sky". I can't.

Well yeah, I don't want to go back through all that, there was a guy on the team we just played we probably could have got.

But the bigger thing I was trying to get across is everyone is going to focus on the micro issues, Jimmy's words, and not look at what kind of dysfunction must be going on at the team level in order for something like this to come up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/678441972680540160[/tweet]

I am not thrilled with Hoiberg either. He does seem to slowly be coming to the right conclusions. Noah's minutes slowly coming up. Not pairing Pau and Niko. Getting McD involved in the offense.

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it. He is like a dog getting into a pissing match to mark his territory...only the other dog refuses to participate.

Rose's excuses have just about run out, and as they have his aggressiveness is slowly improving. If it stops improving, or regresses, and Hoiberg does nothing that will be very incriminating of Hoiberg in my eyes.

But this thread is about what Butler did, and it was wrong and very, very damaging. If Butler wanted to win this season, he just added another degree of difficulty to it.

[Stratmaster]

It's insane how quickly people will turn on a player the moment he becomes critical of the FO. And let's be clear, Butler's comments about Hoiberg were a critique on the FO more than anything.

The emotional attachment to the FO is almost frightening.

funny, I didn't hear Butler mention the front office. And another poster just stated how cozy Butler is with the front office and that he is speaking for them, not at them.

This is not the first comment, so it isn't "the moment he became critical" and not one of his now 3 inflammatory comments mention the front office.

Everything you stated is just your spin on the situation to suit your bias against the front office.

[Dajody10]

Jimmy Butler's public personality has changed dramatically in the last 12 months. It has nothing to do with 5 years of busting his ass. He has "arrived". TV shows about his aquarium, front page of the sports mags etc. Oddly, he isn't as good as most players who get this attention, and it has gone to his head.

We've been through the personnel discussions and "who would you have traded for via what assets" discussions in many threads. I agree that the Bulls should have traded for a 3 in the offseason. Unless you can say specifically who they would have traded and who they would have gotten THAT is the "pie in the sky". I can't.

Well yeah, I don't want to go back through all that, there was a guy on the team we just played we probably could have got.

But the bigger thing I was trying to get across is everyone is going to focus on the micro issues, Jimmy's words, and not look at what kind of dysfunction must be going on at the team level in order for something like this to come up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/678441972680540160[/tweet]

I am not thrilled with Hoiberg either. He does seem to slowly be coming to the right conclusions. Noah's minutes slowly coming up. Not pairing Pau and Niko. Getting McD involved in the offense.

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it. He is like a dog getting into a pissing match to mark his territory...only the other dog refuses to participate.

Rose's excuses have just about run out, and as they have his aggressiveness is slowly improving. If it stops improving, or regresses, and Hoiberg does nothing that will be very incriminating of Hoiberg in my eyes.

But this thread is about what Butler did, and it was wrong and very, very damaging. If Butler wanted to win this season, he just added another degree of difficulty to it.

Hoiberg is having the same issue Thibs had - are you guys blind or something? Is it that difficult to see how this team basically mirrors Derrick Rose? Rose plays hard when he wants to play hard, and the Bulls play hard when they want to play hard. Butler is calling out ONE PERSON people and it's Rose. He wants someone to make Rose accountable, make him play hard, focused and engaged every night. You guys are beyond blind, it's insane how obvious this situation has become.

[RebuildaBulls]

His comments come at a bad time. Sure the loss yesterday was bad, but there was no Pau and no legs left from the 4OT game. Before that Bulls bench was clicking, Noah and Rose were starting to play aggressive and Bulls had a 4 game winning streak. To me it looked like everything was coming together and it was getting exciting. Funny how comments come after this game which to me wasn't such a disaster knowing the circumstances, many were expecting Bulls to be flat.

It's baffling how his comments after this game

[Rerisen]

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it

I don't think that has been established at all.

People have legitimately dreamed up about half a dozen players or scenarios it could make sense for.

And likely he meant all of them, this team's play and effort has been crap for 2 years now and its not just Derrick Rose.

I know the FO angle is to try and just blame two guys fighting with each other to be the alpha, but that again is a sweep under the rug to me, when this team has not been buying into the last two coaches in mass.

[Indomitable]

He called out Noah?

Sorry I should clarify. He indirectly called out Noah in the preseason saying that the Bulls have lacked leadership in previous seasons. Noah was essentially the leader the past 3 seasons so I considered this calling him out and usurping Noah as the leader of the team.

OK. Gotcha.

If that is truly what Jimmy meant, and he truly was calling out Noah's effort or leadership, then he is even stupider than his recent comments make him look. Jo's effort and leadership last night make Jimmy look like a spoiled rotten child.

Jimmy lost all perspective if he believes this

[Stratmaster]

Well yeah, I don't want to go back through all that, there was a guy on the team we just played we probably could have got.

But the bigger thing I was trying to get across is everyone is going to focus on the micro issues, Jimmy's words, and not look at what kind of dysfunction must be going on at the team level in order for something like this to come up.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/678441972680540160[/tweet]

I am not thrilled with Hoiberg either. He does seem to slowly be coming to the right conclusions. Noah's minutes slowly coming up. Not pairing Pau and Niko. Getting McD involved in the offense.

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it. He is like a dog getting into a pissing match to mark his territory...only the other dog refuses to participate.

Rose's excuses have just about run out, and as they have his aggressiveness is slowly improving. If it stops improving, or regresses, and Hoiberg does nothing that will be very incriminating of Hoiberg in my eyes.

But this thread is about what Butler did, and it was wrong and very, very damaging. If Butler wanted to win this season, he just added another degree of difficulty to it.

Hoiberg is having the same issue Thibs had - are you guys blind or something? Is it that difficult to see how this team basically mirrors Derrick Rose? Rose plays hard when he wants to play hard, and the Bulls play hard when they want to play hard. Butler is calling out ONE PERSON people and it's Rose. He wants someone to make Rose accountable, make him play hard, focused and engaged every night. You guys are beyond blind, it's insane how obvious this situation has become.

Calling others blind and then coming up with some whack conspiracy theory about Rose doesn't look very smart.

you think Gasol and Noah's performance is dependent on whether or not Rose is playing hard?

Who on the Bulls team is not playing hard? Better question; other than Rose, who on the Bulls team do you think is playing less hard than Butler?

[SteelerSpartan]

Yeah let's trade JB...

I'm so far beyond caring what the idiots in that FO or their best bro Fred think.

They have no credibility with me whatsoever after the sh** they pulled with Thibs.

Say whatever the hell you want Jimmy...because you know damn well those guys will run leak sh** to the media whenever they feel threatened or want something.

[RebuildaBulls]

Yeah let's trade JB...

I'm so far beyond caring what the idiots in that FO or their best bro Fred think.

They have no credibility with me whatsoever after the sh** they pulled with Thibs.

Say whatever the hell you want Jimmy...because you know damn well those guys will run leak sh** to the media whenever they feel threatened or want something.

Get over Thibs, he's gone and will never come back. Life goes on

[pb-ceo]

when he was a FA he was courted by the smartest teams in the league. SA wanted him badly. kobe gets on everybody. it's his nature. Pau is limited defensively. but he tries. and he has lost athleticism at 34. but is a future HofFamer. the real crime is when you are in your mid late 20s athletic and don't try.

Well yeah, I would amend your first post to say, "Pau's skills have never been questioned".

Regardless how tough or how much effort he gives into defense, or whether you believe its simply lack of athleticism there, he still managed to be a great player, so of course that's why people wanted him.

I do though think that he is a guy that needs team harmony and motivation to do his best. This kind of spiraling down atmosphere won't be good for his buy in. It was much worse in LA his last two seasons, and he had 2 of his worst years amidst that.

you know this better than anybody. every player has a + - rating. every player does things well and not so well. the trick is finding players that will be + value for your team despite the negatives. SA obviously thought the plus greatly outweighed the minus. And he has not dissapointed. pau would also be much better with a better perimeter PnR defender to work with.

[Stratmaster]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678617424581758976[/tweet]

And before you know it, here's KC with the FO's side of things. In sum: "Butler is not really mad about the team's effort. He's just mad that Hoiberg's offense doesn't fit his style. In other words, he's selfish."

Only a matter of time before Butler is added to the insanely long list of people who the Bulls organization has had issues with. And judging from the comments here, it's already pretty clear which side many on this board will take: the FO.

So when KC tweets Butler's opinion, that is OK. When he tweets the truth, he is being a shill. Sure.