Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Stratmaster]

Yeah let's trade JB...

I'm so far beyond caring what the idiots in that FO or their best bro Fred think.

They have no credibility with me whatsoever after the sh** they pulled with Thibs.

Say whatever the hell you want Jimmy...because you know damn well those guys will run leak sh** to the media whenever they feel threatened or want something.

Wow. Jimmy Butler has gone public 3 times now with criticism, and you are warning him the FO might leak stuff.

[GetBuLLish]

funny, I didn't hear Butler mention the front office. And another poster just stated how cozy Butler is with the front office and that he is speaking for them, not at them.

This is not the first comment, so it isn't "the moment he became critical" and not one of his now 3 inflammatory comments mention the front office.

Everything you stated is just your spin on the situation to suit your bias against the front office.

The front office just hired Hoiberg. You must be delusional not to understand what I'm saying.

[kyrv]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678617424581758976[/tweet]

And before you know it, here's KC with the FO's side of things. In sum: "Butler is not really mad about the team's effort. He's just mad that Hoiberg's offense doesn't fit his style. In other words, he's selfish."

Only a matter of time before Butler is added to the insanely long list of people who the Bulls organization has had issues with. And judging from the comments here, it's already pretty clear which side many on this board will take: the FO.

So when KC tweets Butler's opinion, that is OK. When he tweets the truth, he is being a shill. Sure.

I believe you have nailed it.

[Rerisen]

you know this better than anybody. every player has a + - rating. every player does things well and not so well. the trick is finding players that will be + value for your team despite the negatives. SA obviously thought the plus greatly outweighed the minus. And he has not dissapointed. pau would also be much better with a better perimeter PnR defender to work with.

When Jimmy comments so broadly like this it can be taken a dozen different ways as people want to defend this or that player, for why it can't be on them. Pau could have his own topic. He really isn't playing that great this year so far.

[Dajody10]

I am not thrilled with Hoiberg either. He does seem to slowly be coming to the right conclusions. Noah's minutes slowly coming up. Not pairing Pau and Niko. Getting McD involved in the offense.

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it. He is like a dog getting into a pissing match to mark his territory...only the other dog refuses to participate.

Rose's excuses have just about run out, and as they have his aggressiveness is slowly improving. If it stops improving, or regresses, and Hoiberg does nothing that will be very incriminating of Hoiberg in my eyes.

But this thread is about what Butler did, and it was wrong and very, very damaging. If Butler wanted to win this season, he just added another degree of difficulty to it.

Hoiberg is having the same issue Thibs had - are you guys blind or something? Is it that difficult to see how this team basically mirrors Derrick Rose? Rose plays hard when he wants to play hard, and the Bulls play hard when they want to play hard. Butler is calling out ONE PERSON people and it's Rose. He wants someone to make Rose accountable, make him play hard, focused and engaged every night. You guys are beyond blind, it's insane how obvious this situation has become.

Calling others blind and then coming up with some whack conspiracy theory about Rose doesn't look very smart.

you think Gasol and Noah's performance is dependent on whether or not Rose is playing hard?

Who on the Bulls team is not playing hard? Better question; other than Rose, who on the Bulls team do you think is playing less hard than Butler?

They follow the PG, the engine of the team, who 1000000% plays hard when he feels like playing hard. This permeates down the roster, and they feed off it. When you watch the Bulls you know within the first five minutes if the team is focused and engaged, and it's always dependent on Rose. If Rose is focused, attacking, and playing engaged basketball the rest of the team follows. If Rose is coasting, dribbling up the floor, passing to Butler and hiding the corner, the rest of the guys all play sluggish, iso-heavy basketball.

This is not rocket science. Teams take the identity of their most talented players, in all sports, especially basketball. Jimmy Butler is far from perfect, but he is a competitor and he cannot stand the Rose situation. He knows the team depends on Rose to play hard and focused nightly in order to win consistently, yet Rose refuses to come focused on a nightly basis. When Rose is not engineering the offense, everything breaks down and everyone plays iso-ball. This is basketball 101, especially with a roster built around Rose attacking.

Jimmy Butler was calling out Rose, he wants someone to hold him accountable. Thibs didn't do it, Hoiberg isn't doing it, the players don't say anything about Rose, and the front office doesn't do anything. This starts and ends with Rose, end of story.

[Stratmaster]

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it

I don't think that has been established at all.

People have legitimately dreamed up about half a dozen players or scenarios it could make sense for.

And likely he meant all of them, this team's play and effort has been crap for 2 years now and its not just Derrick Rose.

I know the FO angle is to try and just blame two guys fighting with each other to be the alpha, but that again is a sweep under the rug to me, when this team has not been buying into the last two coaches in mass.

And that is one of the problems. Exactly who is he referring to? It's like telling an army "there is a traitor in our midst" but not sharing who it is. If he wants to be a big shot, then quit dropping little passive aggressive jabs and say it...and then hopefully he is quickly jettisoned from the team.

[MC3]

Yeah let's trade JB...

I'm so far beyond caring what the idiots in that FO or their best bro Fred think.

They have no credibility with me whatsoever after the sh** they pulled with Thibs.

Say whatever the hell you want Jimmy...because you know damn well those guys will run leak sh** to the media whenever they feel threatened or want something.

Get over Thibs, he's gone and will never come back. Life goes on

This board have more Thibs fans than Bulls fans. I believe in that. Some people think Bulls organization need to clean up the mess and get it *** together, I firmly believe this board need also.

[GetBuLLish]

So when KC tweets Butler's opinion, that is OK. When he tweets the truth, he is being a shill. Sure.

I believe you have nailed it.

You guys do understand the difference between quoting someone's public statement critical about someone versus quoting (or paraphrasing) anonymous statements critical about someone?

I really hope I don't have to explain the difference here.

[Rerisen]

Exactly who is he referring to? It's like telling an army "there is a traitor in our midst" but not sharing who it is. If he wants to be a big shot, then quit dropping little passive aggressive jabs and say it...and then hopefully he is quickly jettisoned from the team.

His words seem to indicate everyone, including himself.

He simply wants Fred to hold people to higher account. I don't think it is 'one traitor'. I think its the whole army has lost morale.

It's true that Jimmy does ISO's a lot, probably too much at times, but he might feel he is helpless to fix the offense with just being one player, and that if Rose is doing it, Niko is doing it, Pau is doing it, he has no choice but to follow suit to still try and impact the game.

And thus, only Hoiberg cracking down can get the whole team, Jimmy included, back to playing team ball.

[Stratmaster]

Hoiberg is having the same issue Thibs had - are you guys blind or something? Is it that difficult to see how this team basically mirrors Derrick Rose? Rose plays hard when he wants to play hard, and the Bulls play hard when they want to play hard. Butler is calling out ONE PERSON people and it's Rose. He wants someone to make Rose accountable, make him play hard, focused and engaged every night. You guys are beyond blind, it's insane how obvious this situation has become.

Calling others blind and then coming up with some whack conspiracy theory about Rose doesn't look very smart.

you think Gasol and Noah's performance is dependent on whether or not Rose is playing hard?

Who on the Bulls team is not playing hard? Better question; other than Rose, who on the Bulls team do you think is playing less hard than Butler?

They follow the PG, the engine of the team, who 1000000% plays hard when he feels like playing hard. This permeates down the roster, and they feed off it. When you watch the Bulls you know within the first five minutes if the team is focused and engaged, and it's always dependent on Rose. If Rose is focused, attacking, and playing engaged basketball the rest of the team follows. If Rose is coasting, dribbling up the floor, passing to Butler and hiding the corner, the rest of the guys all play sluggish, iso-heavy basketball.

This is not rocket science. Teams take the identity of their most talented players, in all sports, especially basketball. Jimmy Butler is far from perfect, but he is a competitor and he cannot stand the Rose situation. He knows the team depends on Rose to play hard and focused nightly in order to win consistently, yet Rose refuses to come focused on a nightly basis. When Rose is not engineering the offense, everything breaks down and everyone plays iso-ball. This is basketball 101, especially with a roster built around Rose attacking.

Jimmy Butler was calling out Rose, he wants someone to hold him accountable. Thibs didn't do it, Hoiberg isn't doing it, the players don't say anything about Rose, and the front office doesn't do anything. This starts and ends with Rose, end of story.

That is all a bunch of malarkey. These are paid professionals not high schoolers. Rose hasn't even been responsible for starting the offense half the time when he is playing. Jimmy Butler is just as guilty of walking the ball up the court and he is supposed to be the leader; so maybe in your scenario the players are feeding off Butler? After all, is he not now the most talented player you talk about?

[Dajody10]

Butler's issue seems to be Rose and he needs to get over it

I don't think that has been established at all.

People have legitimately dreamed up about half a dozen players or scenarios it could make sense for.

And likely he meant all of them, this team's play and effort has been crap for 2 years now and its not just Derrick Rose.

I know the FO angle is to try and just blame two guys fighting with each other to be the alpha, but that again is a sweep under the rug to me, when this team has not been buying into the last two coaches in mass.

And that is one of the problems. Exactly who is he referring to? It's like telling an army "there is a traitor in our midst" but not sharing who it is. If he wants to be a big shot, then quit dropping little passive aggressive jabs and say it...and then hopefully he is quickly jettisoned from the team.

I agree with you here. Butler needs to come out and say what he feels, that Rose needs to man up, stop being a pansy, and play hard on a nightly basis. Making side jabs is all the Bulls, as a whole, have been doing with Rose for three years now. It's time to call a spade a spade, and light a fire under Rose once and for all.

[Stratmaster]

Exactly who is he referring to? It's like telling an army "there is a traitor in our midst" but not sharing who it is. If he wants to be a big shot, then quit dropping little passive aggressive jabs and say it...and then hopefully he is quickly jettisoned from the team.

His words seem to indicate everyone, including himself.

He simply wants Fred to hold people to higher account. I don't think it is 'one traitor'. I think its the whole army has lost morale.

It's true that Jimmy does ISO's a lot, probably too much at times, but he might feel he is helpless to fix the offense with just being one player, and that if Rose is doing it, Niko is doing it, Pau is doing it, he has no choice but to follow suit to still try and impact the game.

And thus, only Hoiberg cracking down can get the whole team, Jimmy included, back to playing team ball.

It is pretty clear Butler is the one bucking the system the most, and thus his tantrums in public. He needs to go.

[fleet]

If you are one of these trying to force this into the Rose V Jimmy box, that may be a fair take, but you don't know that. It may just as easily be, again, things like Snell going for a nap on the O glass so that Luc Mbah a Moute steal rebounds and Pau Gasol ends up yelling at people. Is Hoiberg cleaning anything up? Jimmy implies (thanks Re') no.

[Rerisen]

People just keep going back to the Butler V Rose thing.

Does Butler and Rose explain why Snell and Mirotic have regressed? Why Pau is the most inefficient of his whole career?

It's a team wide issue.

[Dajody10]

Calling others blind and then coming up with some whack conspiracy theory about Rose doesn't look very smart.

you think Gasol and Noah's performance is dependent on whether or not Rose is playing hard?

Who on the Bulls team is not playing hard? Better question; other than Rose, who on the Bulls team do you think is playing less hard than Butler?

They follow the PG, the engine of the team, who 1000000% plays hard when he feels like playing hard. This permeates down the roster, and they feed off it. When you watch the Bulls you know within the first five minutes if the team is focused and engaged, and it's always dependent on Rose. If Rose is focused, attacking, and playing engaged basketball the rest of the team follows. If Rose is coasting, dribbling up the floor, passing to Butler and hiding the corner, the rest of the guys all play sluggish, iso-heavy basketball.

This is not rocket science. Teams take the identity of their most talented players, in all sports, especially basketball. Jimmy Butler is far from perfect, but he is a competitor and he cannot stand the Rose situation. He knows the team depends on Rose to play hard and focused nightly in order to win consistently, yet Rose refuses to come focused on a nightly basis. When Rose is not engineering the offense, everything breaks down and everyone plays iso-ball. This is basketball 101, especially with a roster built around Rose attacking.

Jimmy Butler was calling out Rose, he wants someone to hold him accountable. Thibs didn't do it, Hoiberg isn't doing it, the players don't say anything about Rose, and the front office doesn't do anything. This starts and ends with Rose, end of story.

That is all a bunch of malarkey. These are paid professionals not high schoolers. Rose hasn't even been responsible for starting the offense half the time when he is playing. Jimmy Butler is just as guilty of walking the ball up the court and he is supposed to be the leader; so maybe in your scenario the players are feeding off Butler? After all, is he not now the most talented player you talk about?

He is the most talented player by default, because Rose is a shell of himself. A healthy and focused Rose is the best player on the Bulls, period. And if you don't think players feed off their best player, especially the PG, then you just don't understand how basketball, or team sports work in general.

[Stratmaster]

If you are one of these trying to force this into the Rose V Jimmy box, that may be a fair take, but you don't know that. It may just as easily be, again, things like Snell going for a nap on the O glass so that Luc Mbah a Moute steal rebounds and Pau Gasol ends up yelling at people. Is Hoiberg cleaning anything up? Jimmy implies (thanks Re') no.

I have no way of knowing exactly what Jimmy is referring to, making his vague, whiny, dramatic comments even more damaging. It doesn't matter who he is talking about. The comments are stupid and damaging regardless. Jimmy, sorry you don't want to play the coaches schemes. Ask for a trade.

[kingkirk]

I'm shocked to read that people actually support Butler for this. Well, I'm not, but you get my drift.

There is no defense of a player coming out and questioning his coach publicly like this. It's asinine to suggest otherwise, no matter how truthful his comments may/may not be.

[Rerisen]

It is pretty clear Butler is the one bucking the system the most, and thus his tantrums in public. He needs to go.

He needs to go!?

Sorry, but if you jettison top line talent at the first hiccup of trouble, the team is never going to get back on top.

They need to get to the bottom of this and work it out, and address whatever the underlying problems are that caused Butler to say this stuff. The comments themselves are a symptom, just rashly trying to trade your best player who you just gave a 5yr max contract to, because he says something that makes the org or coach uncomfortable, would be the height of reactionary foolishness.

Maybe if this goes on for an entire year - pretty much a treadmill year anyway - and you can't resolve it after many tries, and it somehow comes to the fore that Butler is uniquely a problem and nothing else is (which I find highly unlikely) then you would think about shopping him next offseason.

[Stratmaster]

People just keep going back to the Butler V Rose thing.

Does Butler and Rose explain why Snell and Mirotic have regressed? Why Pau is the most inefficient of his whole career?

It's a team wide issue.

does "Fred isn't pushing us enough" explain why Snell and Mirotic regressed? The two guys everyone was saying were getting harmed by Thibs aggressive coaching style?

Pau has been just fine this season, and in fact has been the Bulls MVP so far, efficiency be damned.

[Dajody10]

If you are one of these trying to force this into the Rose V Jimmy box, that may be a fair take, but you don't know that. It may just as easily be, again, things like Snell going for a nap on the O glass so that Luc Mbah a Moute steal rebounds and Pau Gasol ends up yelling at people. Is Hoiberg cleaning anything up? Jimmy implies (thanks Re') no.

I have no way of knowing exactly what Jimmy is referring to, making his vague, whiny, dramatic comments even more damaging. It doesn't matter who he is talking about. The comments are stupid and damaging regardless. Jimmy, sorry you don't want to play the coaches schemes. Ask for a trade.

If it was up to Stratmaster the Bulls would be rolling out Hinrich, McDermott, Luol Deng, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah because they are all good soldiers, toe the company line, play hard and give it their all regardless of the fact that they'd win 15 games.