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Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Cowley has an article on this, and of course he thinks Butler is talking mainly about Rose.
Ice Man wrote:Stratmaster wrote:[We have won more games because of Pau than Butler
You won't get many to agree with you on that one. Jimmy has been this team's best player more this year than he was last year (as Pau was stronger last year and Derrick too). You don't have to like his style of play, or his manner of carrying himself, but he does help his team win games on the court.
Rerisen wrote:Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Cowley has an article on this, and of course he thinks Butler is talking mainly about Rose.
His problem is he has burned all his bridges.
Especially now that Thibs people are gone, he probably has no good sources left.
So ends up back to the well of Derrick Rose. And that could be it, but I don't think we have any proof of that yet.
The Chris Mannix quote, as well as Friedell stuff, suggests the lack of Fred's message getting through is a much wider, team wide issue.
Stratmaster wrote:I don't think I ever said trade him for nobody. I said an impact player and I said Butler should have great value. Since you think he is clearly the best and most valuable player on the team I expect you would agree.
I mentioned professional behavior as a comparison to Butler and "everyone else on the team" which includes Rose, Snell and Niko. Where did I suggest the team should clear out everyone else and we should just cheer the geriatric vets? You are consistent in putting words in other posters mouths to try to change their position to something you can easily point out as stupid.
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Rerisen wrote:Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Cowley has an article on this, and of course he thinks Butler is talking mainly about Rose.
His problem is he has burned all his bridges.
Especially now that Thibs people are gone, he probably has no good sources left.
So ends up back to the well of Derrick Rose. And that could be it, but I don't think we have any proof of that yet.
The Chris Mannix quote, as well as Friedell stuff, suggests the lack of Fred's message getting through is a much wider, team wide issue.
It's coming across as the team is simply uncoachable.
If Fred's messages aren't getting through to the players after just 25 games, then what hope do we have for this group before the **** really hits the fan?
Dajody10 wrote:http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1195228/jimmy-butler-wants-everyone-page-coach-derrick-rose-included
End of story, this is the obvious narrative folks - wake up and face reality.
Dajody10 wrote:Eddy_JukeZ wrote:Rerisen wrote:
His problem is he has burned all his bridges.
Especially now that Thibs people are gone, he probably has no good sources left.
So ends up back to the well of Derrick Rose. And that could be it, but I don't think we have any proof of that yet.
The Chris Mannix quote, as well as Friedell stuff, suggests the lack of Fred's message getting through is a much wider, team wide issue.
It's coming across as the team is simply uncoachable.
If Fred's messages aren't getting through to the players after just 25 games, then what hope do we have for this group before the **** really hits the fan?
The message wasn't getting through last yr with Thibs, and it's not getting through this year with Fred. It's not the coach, its the star (or former star, or whatever the hell Rose is now) setting the tone with his attitude and nobody holding him accountable.
R3AL1TY wrote:Even though I agree that Butler isn't being selfish in wanting more plays ran for him, his gesture to the media is selfish as far as airing things out on his own about the coach and team with the media rather than discussing it privately.
Dajody10 wrote:The message wasn't getting through last yr with Thibs, and it's not getting through this year with Fred. It's not the coach, its the star (or former star, or whatever the hell Rose is now) setting the tone with his attitude and nobody holding him accountable.
Rerisen wrote:Stratmaster wrote:I don't think I ever said trade him for nobody. I said an impact player and I said Butler should have great value. Since you think he is clearly the best and most valuable player on the team I expect you would agree.
I mentioned professional behavior as a comparison to Butler and "everyone else on the team" which includes Rose, Snell and Niko. Where did I suggest the team should clear out everyone else and we should just cheer the geriatric vets? You are consistent in putting words in other posters mouths to try to change their position to something you can easily point out as stupid.
Because you want to trade the best player on the team, as if that is easily viable, to instantly get good a deal. When most likely it would be a firesale trade because he made the FO look bad, and we end up worse for many more years, and then are left with these old guys, who no matter how professional, aren't taking us anywhere.
If we shopped Butler now, other teams will be like vultures knowing we just want to get rid of him because of some internal friction. They are not likely to offer fair value because we would be in the weaker bargaining position.
Would I do it for the right deal, in theory yes, but lets see the sourced rumors coming in for who is available, and we can examine them. Until they do, I think this is a fantasy scenario, and we are going to have to deal with the problems on this team, that likely run far deeper than the comments that erupted out of them.
Stratmaster wrote:Dajody10 wrote:http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1195228/jimmy-butler-wants-everyone-page-coach-derrick-rose-included
End of story, this is the obvious narrative folks - wake up and face reality.
The fact that Butler doesn't like Rose's work ethic has nothing to do with your claim that the rest of the players effort is somehow based on Rose's effort.
Dajody10 wrote:http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1195228/jimmy-butler-wants-everyone-page-coach-derrick-rose-included
End of story, this is the obvious narrative folks - wake up and face reality.
Stratmaster wrote:The Bulls now have a 2nd albatross contract on their hands thanks to Jimmy's unprofessional and childish behavior.
Stratmaster wrote:Rerisen wrote:Stratmaster wrote:I don't think I ever said trade him for nobody. I said an impact player and I said Butler should have great value. Since you think he is clearly the best and most valuable player on the team I expect you would agree.
I mentioned professional behavior as a comparison to Butler and "everyone else on the team" which includes Rose, Snell and Niko. Where did I suggest the team should clear out everyone else and we should just cheer the geriatric vets? You are consistent in putting words in other posters mouths to try to change their position to something you can easily point out as stupid.
Because you want to trade the best player on the team, as if that is easily viable, to instantly get good a deal. When most likely it would be a firesale trade because he made the FO look bad, and we end up worse for many more years, and then are left with these old guys, who no matter how professional, aren't taking us anywhere.
If we shopped Butler now, other teams will be like vultures knowing we just want to get rid of him because of some internal friction. They are not likely to offer fair value because we would be in the weaker bargaining position.
Would I do it for the right deal, in theory yes, but lets see the sourced rumors coming in for who is available, and we can examine them. Until they do, I think this is a fantasy scenario, and we are going to have to deal with the problems on this team, that likely run far deeper than the comments that erupted out of them.
Fair enough. It seems like you are saying Butler isn't valuable enough to get a top tier starter back because teams know he is causing trouble. Who's fault is it that teams know this?
I don't agree with that assessment. If Butler is as valuable as you think, teams would not pass up a reasonable trade thinking the Bulls will give him away...unless of course theya re just as concerned about his demeanor.
The Bulls now have a 2nd albatross contract on their hands thanks to Jimmy's unprofessional and childish behavior.
Dajody10 wrote:Stratmaster wrote:Dajody10 wrote:http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1195228/jimmy-butler-wants-everyone-page-coach-derrick-rose-included
End of story, this is the obvious narrative folks - wake up and face reality.
The fact that Butler doesn't like Rose's work ethic has nothing to do with your claim that the rest of the players effort is somehow based on Rose's effort.
So when LeBron quit on the Cavs in 2010, what did the rest of the team do - they quit. When Kobe quit on the Lakers in 2007 against Phoenix what did the rest of the team do, they quit. When Shaq and Kobe went back and forth, putting their personal priorities ahead of the team, what happened, the team followed and they got destroyed by the Pistons. Teams follow the lead of the stars - this is how sports work. Butler knows this, if nobody is going to hold Rose accountable to play hard nightly, why should the other guys have to worry either. This is human nature for christ sake, how this is even an argument is mindbloggling.