Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

His message will not have the intended consequence- if that is indeed his intent.

Well now its a bit early to forecast that. I think something will come out of this.

Hopefully a reckoning.

If they just try to brush under the table, low key Fred style so far, its probably going to keep festering.

[mmmmmbeeer]

After every loss, it seems, every player interviewed talks about either energy, pace, or effort, sometimes all 3 in one quote. It's become truly cliche.

I don't take Jimmy's comments as a shot at Hoiberg, I take them as a shot to the entire organization....and I LOVE IT! I don't see it as unprofessional, I see it as someone FINALLY explaining to fans why this team is not performing. As a paying customer, don't we deserve honesty? The idea that folks are calling him out now for being "selfish" or "inconsiderate" or "unfair", I guess these are the folks who prefer to hear canned answers from players and coaches in postgame interviews.

Fred is a smart guy...he'll take the criticism as constructively as possible.

[Rerisen]

Jimmy is treating Fred nicer than Lebron treated Blatt last year.

And they made the Finals. While crippled, over us no less.

"But Re, they have way more talent."

Well my work here is done.

[musiqsoulchild]

Let's not compare the leverage that MJ and LeBron and Kobe have earned in their respective organizations and era's to :

Jimmy Butler.

[the ultimates]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

[musiqsoulchild]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Objective of being the Alpha Dog - Not achieved.

Objective of being the Barking Dog - Achieved with phenomenal success.

[CmonScal]

You didn't get my point at all.

Would Fred Hoiberg be a better coach if he:

1) Tweeted that Niko Mirotic is a terrible teammate?
2) Told Sam Smith that Derrick Rose is only playing well in nationally televised games?
3) Told Nick Friedell that Pau Gasol is the worst defender he has ever seen?
4) Told Haugh that Jimmy Butler plays too much ISO.

That doesn't make him any better than he is today as a coach.

The Jimmy method of strong-arming Fred through the media is NOT going to work. Because Fred is already a strong personality with his own basketball chops in coaching, player management and as a player himself. That was my point about "paying dues". This isn't a battle between unequals. Fred can stand up for himself quite nicely - and that's without Gar or Pax even stepping in.

Yes he is new to the NBA coaching and new to the Chicago Bulls. But so was Jimmy 5 seasons ago. Everyone has growing pains and learning curves.

Imagine if Fred told the media that "Pau needs to listen to the coaches more" OR "Jimmy needs to play within the team construct".

There is no relative right or wrong here. Jimmy is ABSOLUTELY wrong here.

Even from a logic/basketball perspective - it's kind of ridiculous to use the second game played on a night after a 4 OT game and a game in which Pau was not available and everyone else pretty much stunk ( including Jimmy) - it makes like ZERO sense for Jimmy to use that night as the time for laying the gauntlet at Fred.

And the place for it was also ABSOLUTELY wrong. It's NEVER in front of a microphone. You do that if you are getting poor advise OR if you are frustrated and do not have the capacity to regulate yourself emotionally.

If it's the latter, then Jimmy is a terrible leader of men.

Here's some quotes I wouldn't mind for Fred to say to players in the locker room, which apparently he isn't doing according to Jimmy.

"Derrick your effort tonight was miserable, you're going to need to display a higher effort more frequently or you're going to lose playing time"

"Niko, if you don't stop flopping around and begin to work harder, you're not going to play at the end of games"

"Pau, you need to put forth more effort on the defensive end or we're going to play Noah more"

It seems that Jimmy is the only one on this team who is bothered by the bad losses and the awful effort that he's seeing.
He's taking to the media as a means of trying to fix the major problems in this team, as nothing else has worked.

Disclaimer: I'm going to make the assumption that Jimmy's talked to Fred behind closed doors about this all already. If he hasn't, that's not good at all, but Jimmy alluded in his comments that they've discussed these things and I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Listen, I agree with you that calling people out through the media isn't indicative of positive signs. My question to you is, though, are you content with the poor coaching and miserable effort we've seen thus far? It's certainly not ideal, but as I stated, I prefer this much more than keeping with the status quo.

This isn't Edward Snowden and the NSA.

Jimmy isn't some righteous whistle-blower in all this. Instead he's coming across clearly as a pain in the ass, blowhard.

Time to take the good book and put it to use : the sunbeam in your eye first before the speck in your neighbors.

There is NO defense of what Jimmy is doing. Why should we assume that Fred's coaching is not working?

It's working fine for Doug and Noah. It's working fine for Jimmy's production as well. It's working fine in terms of results as compared to last season or Thibs first season. It's working fine in terms of limiting minutes for veterans and developing younger players.

Just because Jimmy disagrees with it ( and some folks here agree with Jimmy) doesn't make it right.

Consider this - the player who has sucked the most and also has a reputation of not getting along well with teammates has been demoted to the bench ( Niko ). The player that didn't fit with floor spacing was also moved to the bench ( Noah).

Fred's made a lot of tough calls. And it's mostly paid off. He just doesn't believe in shouting about it or banging the table really hard or loud noises something something.

That doesn't make Jimmy right. It makes Jimmy as someone who has a different opinion of his coach. One that should be shared - if at all - INTERNALLY only. No matter the circumstances.

Fred's coaching isn't working well. I think that's pretty clear at this point. The offense is ranked near the bottom, and to point to Doug and Noah as the bright points of his coaching speaks to how poorly it's gone so far. If moving this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-wyJr4mME to the bench was a shrewd move, then I'd like to try my hand at coaching myself.

As an example, Greg Popovich isn't exactly the table pounding guy on the sidelines. You don't have to be to win in the NBA. But when his players don't perform, Pop will call them out. He isn't content with mediocrity. The feeling I get when watching this team is that they're content with mediocrity. I really hope that they can turn it around. But I'm not getting that feeling right now.

I don't think Jimmy is looking to go on some power trip and call out his coach in the media because it fuels his ego. Let's think about his incentives to do so. He just got his big new contract and he's not looking to get more plays called for him. He isn't trying to become leading scorer in the NBA. He simply wants to see the team win more games, and he's tried everything else in order to do so. I think the biggest difference in my opinion versus a lot of others here is that they think Jimmy is trying to become an alpha male and stoke his ego. I view it as a desperate player trying to do anything to improve his team.

[DarthDiggler69]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Im sure that is a huge part of it, that is probably the truth right there.

Notice how the comments come when Rose seems to have turned it up a notch and even Noah played awesome. Its a power play, not only on the team but against the coach.

Like I mentioned earlier my wife is a huge Bulls fan and a big Rose and Butler-hater, she saw this last year from Butler

[Rerisen]

I view it as a desperate player trying to do anything to improve his team.

I would say a lot of time when Jimmy goes into iso mode, like at the end vs Detroit, its actually because the offense to that point has been one big dumpster fire, and much of the time he almost saves it, or does save it via some difficult individual heroics.

[R3AL1TY]

I'm gonna throw my 2c in again...

Butler is a bad ass, and his comments are 110% welcome by me. This team needs a kick in the ass, and it's obvious that no one in the FO or coaching staff can fill the Thibs void, so thank god Jimmy has taken it upon himself to make this STUPID, STUPID ROSTER realize that you can't win games by dogging it.

Jimmy has the attitude of a champion right now, and I love it. But I guess everybody else wants to see a 3-year 'soft' rebuild, so that Doug McDermott and Nikola Mirotic can get us a championship in 2018 after we entice Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis to sign here in free agency, since that's what the Bulls FO is known to do. Have fantastic free agency campaigns and pick up their most coveted stars, while their mid/late-1st picks develop into superstars.

Oh wait, Jimmy did develop into a borderline superstar. Ah, he's too intense. Let's trade him for Cousins, who will do a better job leading the team. LOL

He can be a bad-ass privately to avoid media drama that will only have him looking like a diva that hasn't proven much yet leading a team. Like what someone else mentioned, hopefully he realizes his mistake despite his outcry having some merits and there is an ongoing discussion to fix things.

[Dajody10]

I would not totally discount the Jimmy Butler power play, trying to be the face bc he became jealous of Rose. However, the problem here is Rose at his current level, when he is focused and engaged, can do things offensively that Jimmy cannot do. Doesn't make Rose a better all around player, but it makes him the most dynamic offensive player on this team, and the only guy capable of dictating pace, tempo and most importantly elevating the role players level of play.

One way or another, nothing is going to change until Rose decides enough is enough and turns it up full force all the time, or they get rid of him. It cannot be the in-between, which is a place GarPax seem to love and embrace.

[mmmmmbeeer]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Wow...that's some armchair psychology right there.

Jimmy Butler is about wins, plain and simple. Since his rookie year, I don't think you can name a single player on the Bulls who consistently has put in as much effort, shown as much dedication, and given up his body for wins (Jo would be close, but old Jo used to suck for half the season then go gangbusters in the 2nd half and playoffs). For you to COMPLETELY dismiss everything we have SEEN him do and instead grasp some ludicrous idea that he's lashing out simply because Rose is playing better...man, I don't know what to say...that's one of the most ridiculous theories I've read on this board since I joined.

[the ultimates]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Im sure that is a huge part of it, that is probably the truth right there.

Notice how the comments come when Rose seems to have turned it up a notch and even Noah played awesome. Its a power play, not only on the team but against the coach.

Like I mentioned earlier my wife is a huge Bulls fan and a big Rose and Butler-hater, she saw this last year from Butler

You're absolutely right. I had totally forgot Noah looked great last night and he was finishing really well around the rim and he hit some jumpers.

[Rerisen]

when he is focused and engaged.

I don't think this is the best view of a trigger for Rose.

I have yet to see he can 'focus and engage' to a level above Jimmy.

And if he could and isn't, then he would be a horrible malcontent.

[Stratmaster]

Jimmy is treating Fred nicer than Lebron treated Blatt last year.

And they made the Finals. While crippled, over us no less.

"But Re, they have way more talent."

Well my work here is done.

Jimmy is no LBJ.

[Risk Addict]

I think Butler should be the last guy called for the starting line-up announcements.

[R3AL1TY]

Seems like this is turning out to be more of a Jimmy vs. Rose discussion than Jimmy vs. Fred.

[Ajosu]

This would be a great move by Butler...one that could be done in a simple conversation in Hoiberg's office. "Fred, I want you to know that I have your back if you coach all of us, myself included, harder".

Agreed. This was emotional, not clever. Will be interesting to see how Butler responds if/when Fred lays down the law starting with him. Butler has a problem with players not doing what the coach says? He should lead by example by doing his job (on the court), supporting the coach (not undermining him), and getting in player's faces if he is so moved by their failure to do their job.

It would be great if Fred slaps down Jimmy for this - but not just him - then starts slapping down whoever isn't playing up to par.

Jimmy would get his wish then, we'd just have to see if he really wanted what he asked for.

I think Fred has no choice but to address this with Jimmy. Just ignoring this could really cause him to lose the team. But I don't think it's going to be the way Jimmy envisioned, which is more vocally holding guys accountable for their play, but rather is going to be addressing the fact that Jimmy was out of line here (nothing related to on-court play). I really doubt that Fred, or any coach, is going to suddenly change his coaching style on account of being called out in the press one of his players. Even if he tried to appease Butler, I don't think it would be effectively received by the players who just saw their coach get ripped publicly and basically concede to the embarrassing criticism. Whoever Fred tries to "coach hard" next is likely going to also lack respect for the coach who basically takes orders from Jimmy. Just don't see it happening.

Hopefully Jimmy can accept being put in check, rather than doubling down and becoming even more of a problem. Because the core problems with this team figure to continue until a major shakeup happens. And if Butler simply does not respect the coach, after every disappointing loss going forward will be further opportunities for him to air stuff out to the press.

[Dajody10]

Seems like this is turning out to be more of a Jimmy vs. Rose discussion than Jimmy vs. Fred.

Because that what the true intention of his comments last night.

[Stratmaster]

His message will not have the intended consequence- if that is indeed his intent.

Well now its a bit early to forecast that. I think something will come out of this.

Hopefully a reckoning.

If they just try to brush under the table, low key Fred style so far, its probably going to keep festering.

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team. Because he keeps that private, as a professional head coach should. there may be a time when the boss needs to call out a player publicly, but in the first 25 games for a new coach with a new team it likely isn't the best approach.

Maybe Jimmy doesn't even know the conversations Fred has had? If Fred has a "hard coach" conversation with a player it is also professional NOT to share that with his teammates and co-workers.

Maybe Fred, who is being paid to be a head coach, has a different idea of how to handle his players than Jimmy, who has never coached anything and is being paid to play SG? Maybe Fred is assessing all of their personalities and handling each individual appropriately but differently, which is what a good leader and Manager does?