Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team.

Sure I do, the best player on the team just explained what his style is.

Whether he can see behind the door conversations or not, he can see how he reacts in game, to players not doing anything close to what the coach drew up.

[Stratmaster]

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team.

Sure I do, the best player on the team just explained what his style is.

So you think Jimmy is privy to the conversations hoiberg has one on one with other players?

And exactly what coaching credentials does Jimmy have that qualify him to assess and grade Hoiberg's approach?

[Dajody10]

His message will not have the intended consequence- if that is indeed his intent.

Well now its a bit early to forecast that. I think something will come out of this.

Hopefully a reckoning.

If they just try to brush under the table, low key Fred style so far, its probably going to keep festering.

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team. Because he keeps that private, as a professional head coach should. there may be a time when the boss needs to call out a player publicly, but in the first 25 games for a new coach with a new team it likely isn't the best approach.

Maybe Jimmy doesn't even know the conversations Fred has had? If Fred has a "hard coach" conversation with a player it is also professional NOT to share that with his teammates and co-workers.

Maybe Fred, who is being paid to be a head coach, has a different idea of how to handle his players than Jimmy, who has never coached anything and is being paid to play SG? Maybe Fred is assessing all of their personalities and handling each individual appropriately but differently, which is what a good leader and Manager does?

Fred Hoiberg is being paid to be GarPax's puppet. The Bulls are full of puppets.....Paxson if JR's puppet, Forman is most definitely Paxson's puppet, and now Freddy is Forman's puppet.....they should the Chicago Puppets moving forward.

[TheStig]

Well, Fleet:
Jimmy just told Doug, Bobby, Snell and Niko that it's OK to challenge your coach through the media.

I highly doubt that's the right approach even from a veteran standpoint.

If all those guys become allstars and team leaders. Sure, feel free to call out Hoiberg.

That's not how any system runs.

There is no need to call out in the media. There is an open door policy that players can lean on and air their grievances.

1) To Fred first. If that fails,
2) To the team captains. If that fails,
3) To Gar Forman. If that fails,
4) Through their agent to John Paxson. If that fails,
5) To Michael Reinsdorf.

When you follow protocol it gives you the LEVERAGE. People in power are then gonna assume that the issue is with Fred because Jimmy took the correct route.
How do you know that all that didn't happen? You're assuming he skipped 1-5. I think Jimmy being here for all these years would be comfortable enough to go through all those channels.
Jimmy didn't take the correct route here - so the issue will by default be attributed to him. The message is lost if the messenger is an annoying pain.

Remember the guy who gets killed and thrown into a well by the Spartans in the movie 300? It's not the message that got his ass killed. It's how he delivered it.

[the ultimates]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Wow...that's some armchair psychology right there.

Jimmy Butler is about wins, plain and simple. Since his rookie year, I don't think you can name a single player on the Bulls who consistently has put in as much effort, shown as much dedication, and given up his body for wins (Jo would be close, but old Jo used to suck for half the season then go gangbusters in the 2nd half and playoffs). For you to COMPLETELY dismiss everything we have SEEN him do and instead grasp some ludicrous idea that he's lashing out simply because Rose is playing better...man, I don't know what to say...that's one of the most ridiculous theories I've read on this board since I joined.

What am I honestly dismissing from Butler? What sense does it make for Jimmy to make these statements 25 games into the season, with a rookie head coach and a team playing .600 ball. Like I said before Niko benched, Snell on the Bogans treatment, Brooks seeing limited minutes and he had a stretch of DNP-CD so how is that not accountability. Hell its even been acknowledged by people around the Bulls Hoiberg has modified his offense to make players like Jimmy more comfortable.

[Stratmaster]

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team.

Sure I do, the best player on the team just explained what his style is.

Whether he can see behind the door conversations or not, he can see how he reacts in game, to players not doing anything close to what the coach drew up.

My response was in before your edit.

You can see how Fred reacts during the game too. What have you seen that you don't like?

[Rerisen]

We don't know yet how Fred will evolve as a coach, but I'm pretty sure Vinny still had a lot of defenders at this early stage too.

Many ways this could go yet, where we look back and end up understanding why Butler said what he did.

[transplant]

Look, if Hoiberg was hemorrhoid-free, he ain't anymore and he has Jimmy Butler to thank. Why? Hell, I don't know, but as I said earlier, if he thinks this is what the team needed to give it a spark, IMO he's misguided. Dammit, the one thing that I liked about this team over last year's team was the absence of that infuriating "soap opera" atmosphere. Well, it's back. Thanks, Jimmy.

It gives me no joy to say what I had thought but kept to myself up until now...Butler has been trying to become THE team leader through the media rather than through the team. That's the wrong way and is 100% counter-productive. Nick freakin' Friedell, Joe freakin' Cowley and every damn Bulls' fan can believe that Butler is "the man" and it doesn't mean a damn thing. If anything, the fact that he curries this irrelevant group's favor works against him.

It's bad form and stupid.

[Rerisen]

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team.

Sure I do, the best player on the team just explained what his style is.

Whether he can see behind the door conversations or not, he can see how he reacts in game, to players not doing anything close to what the coach drew up.

My response was in before your edit.

You can see how Fred reacts during the game too. What have you seen that you don't like?

I don't like his starting lineup for one thing.

I don't like how long it took him to change the closing units and react on Niko's crap play.

I don't like how he lets the team run w/ever the **** they want without aggressively going at guys to fix it, or benching them if they don't.

I don't like how he has seemingly lost the best player on the team AND the former best player on the team.

I don't like how 2 of our 3 young players have regressed under him.

I don't like how our best big man scorer is apparently being used in a way he is horribly inefficient.

[M4P]

If management has any backbone (including Hoiberg) then they need to suspend Jimmy. You can't undermine your coach in public. In any professional setting, whether it be with a manager or supervisor, you speak to the source of conflcit directly or go to HR... airing out dirty laundry is just a bad look for the company and sets an unneeded precedent.

[Stratmaster]

We don't know yet how Fred will evolve as a coach, but I'm pretty sure Vinny still had a lot of defenders at this early stage too.

Many ways this could go yet, where we look back and end up understanding why Butler said what he did.

Fred may end up a complete failure. I'm not defending Fred. Whether he is a good coach or not Butler's comments are detrimental to the team and unprofessional. I don't care if it turns out Jimmy is a basketball genius who goes on to be the best coach in NBA history after he is done playing. It doesn't change the fact that he was pompous, childish and unprofessional.

[Indomitable]

We don't know yet how Fred will evolve as a coach, but I'm pretty sure Vinny still had a lot of defenders at this early stage too.

Many ways this could go yet, where we look back and end up understanding why Butler said what he did.

I bashed Vinnie early on. Jimmy can not do what he did and do not give me a comparison to a hall of famer to justify it.

[Stratmaster]

Sure I do, the best player on the team just explained what his style is.

Whether he can see behind the door conversations or not, he can see how he reacts in game, to players not doing anything close to what the coach drew up.

My response was in before your edit.

You can see how Fred reacts during the game too. What have you seen that you don't like?

I don't like his starting lineup for one thing.

I don't like how long it took him to change the closing units and react on Niko's crap play.

I don't like how he lets the team run w/ever the **** they want without aggressively going at guys to fix it, or benching them if they don't.

I don't like how he has seemingly lost the best player on the team AND the former best player on the team.

I don't like how 2 of our 3 young players have regressed under him.

I don't like how our best big man scorer is apparently being used in a way he is horribly inefficient.

So...you want him to coach like Thibs did!?

You want improvement, which means you have to do something different. When you try new things, some work...some don't...and you adapt. How Fred adapts will be what determines his success or failure.

I assume that you don't like Snell in the starting lineup. McD had a couple good games and is disappearing again. I tend to agree with you, but what options does Fred really have?

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

He has benched Niko, and consistently been decreasing his playing time.
He has attempted to limit Brooks playing time.
I expect he would bench Snell if he thought he had a better option.
Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

[WestsideResider]

A day later and I still don't understand what Jimmy was trying to accomplish by doing this.

[Ajosu]

Jimmy is treating Fred nicer than Lebron treated Blatt last year.

And they made the Finals. While crippled, over us no less.

"But Re, they have way more talent."

Well my work here is done.

touche

[Indomitable]

A day later and I still don't understand what Jimmy was trying to accomplish by doing this.

It was a frustration tantrum. People trying to defend the tantrum is what gets me.

[Chi town]

Look, if Hoiberg was hemorrhoid-free, he ain't anymore and he has Jimmy Butler to thank. Why? Hell, I don't know, but as I said earlier, if he thinks this is what the team needed to give it a spark, IMO he's misguided. Dammit, the one thing that I liked about this team over last year's team was the absence of that infuriating "soap opera" atmosphere. Well, it's back. Thanks, Jimmy.

It gives me no joy to say what I had thought but kept to myself up until now...Butler has been trying to become THE team leader through the media rather than through the team. That's the wrong way and is 100% counter-productive. Nick freakin' Friedell, Joe freakin' Cowley and every damn Bulls' fan can believe that Butler is "the man" and it doesn't mean a damn thing. If anything, the fact that he curries this irrelevant group's favor works against him.

It's bad form and stupid.

+1000. Jimmy, if you're a leadr then lead and get your teammates to play hard. Quit bitching about Hoiberg. He should let you sit when you hold the ball and kill our offense. BTW Melo and Afflalo owned you tonight.

Less talk and more game please. Let your game and leadership do the talking.

Jimmy gets his but I do t think he makes anyone better and he surely isn't a leader. The only leader we have is Noah.

[Rerisen]

I assume that you don't like Snell in the starting lineup. McD had a couple good games and is disappearing again. I tend to agree with you, but what options does Fred really have?

We have a #2 defense and #27 offense.

Doug's strength is offense, weakness defense. It looks like an attempt to balance those ranks while increasing offense more than losing defense would be worth a try.

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

I don't think we even have an offense. And Jimmy is reacting to that Fred either isn't coaching one that fits the team or can't get everyone to buy in together.

Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

There are many games Rose should have been pulled, long before he finally did it for Kirk. And lo and behold, Rose started looking 'more healthy' immediately after that game.

Other games he should probably rely on Brooks more, even though that is mostly a FO fault for not getting a better backup.

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

Thibs fixed that though after about 20 games. Did I say forcing it in the post, no. That's why I said his offense 'apparently' is producing a worse Gasol. I don't know how much is the offense and how much is natural decline, but I know Pau scored much more efficiently last year. I do think its worth giving him a few looks there early, and we don't always do that.

I would also like to see Gasol stretching out from 16 feet or so, more to the arc at times, like Miami did with Bosh. That would truly open up the lanes more for Rose and Butler to attack, right now we have become like a soft jumpshooting team. And mostly we've increased crappy 2 point jumper attempts.

[coldfish]

Obviously, I disagree. Mirotic was one hot month last year. Some people took his hot month as evidence that he was being misused. I just thought it was a statistical aberration. His other months look a lot like this year.

That's just patently and demonstrably false. One good month out of seven wouldn't pump up a player's numbers to those levels. Mirotic's TS% by month was .584, .610, .494, .455, .578, .527. He had outstanding shooting efficiency in three of his seven months. It's funny that you say posters opinions are motivated by being fans of a player and then use factual misstatements to criticize a player who you're more or less openly biased against.

Has it crossed your mind that instead of me being biased against him, I have just been right all along?

As far as your numbers, you are just picking and choosing. Hell, I love your use of the word "outstanding". Really? A 57.8% TS, which is only slightly above league average is outstanding? Its pretty clear you are the biased one incapable of being objective on this.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/6459/type/per48/year/2015/nikola-mirotic

Those are his splits by month per48. As you can see, he had one good month.

[Dajody10]

A day later and I still don't understand what Jimmy was trying to accomplish by doing this.

It was a frustration tantrum. People trying to defend the tantrum is what gets me.

No reason to call out Hoiberg, he should have just said what he wanted to say, which is that Derrick Rose is the root of the problem.