The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[C Court]

As far as trade options go, Shapiro/Atkins are limited because the Jays likely can't afford to trade any top prospects until they re-stock the farm.

EE can't be moved without his permission, which probably means that any trades would have to involve guys like Saunders, Collabello and Smoak. Not exactly game changers.

On the finance side, a 72 cent Canadian dollar isn't helping either - even though the Jays likely locked in their 2016 US funds at better rate a few months ago.

Alex would be facing those same limitations if he was still calling the shots.

[cram]

The budget would have been exactly the same, thinking differently is just denial. People complained each of the past 2 off seasons that AA wasn't adding much because of the exact same issue. Rogers took the foot off the gas, not management.

So back to my original question, what would he have done differently to this point?

Yeah, just as the budget for AA' s contract was supposedly X dollars until he declined and Rogers came back with a LOT more.

You're suggesting he had no ability to persuade Rogers to invest in going for it? Did you not see him do just that last year? Just because Shapiro didn't (the guy was just hired for christ sake), doesn't mean that AA wouldn't have been able to.

Serious question - did you follow this team at all in the past two seasons? Because if you did I'm not really sure how you missed how AA/Beeston weren't able to up the payroll at all during that time.

They were a game back of the division at the deadline in 2014 and weren't allowed to. Then in the next offseason they couldn't convince Rogers to allow them the money to sign Ervin Santana to a one year deal so they asked players to defer salary to fit him in.

If you missed that you should go back and read the papers and forums from that time.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yes, but let's be honest - the ownership was also looking to replace Beeston (and likely AA) at that time. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but didn't this past season change AA's leverage? (or at worst, give him a lot more credibility and influence?).

[Schad]

Whenever we locked in this year's payroll, there's no doubt that the dollar remaining in this position (and possibly dropping, if oil remains in the tank) will have Rogers panicking. $140m US one year ago equaled $162m Canadian...it's now $195m. Long-term contracts might have been an especially risky proposition in their minds with that hanging over their heads, and it shouldn't be a shock if we see $20m or more lopped off the payroll for 2017.

And yeah, unless AA is able to manipulate the oil markets as he did the draft, he wasn't going to win any arguments with Rogers on the budget.

[cram]

The budget would have been exactly the same, thinking differently is just denial. People complained each of the past 2 off seasons that AA wasn't adding much because of the exact same issue. Rogers took the foot off the gas, not management.

So back to my original question, what would he have done differently to this point?

Yeah, just as the budget for AA' s contract was supposedly X dollars until he declined and Rogers came back with a LOT more.

You're suggesting he had no ability to persuade Rogers to invest in going for it? Did you not see him do just that last year? Just because Shapiro didn't (the guy was just hired for christ sake), doesn't mean that AA wouldn't have been able to.

Like I said, many people are in denial.

Adding A more money in a contract offer for AA is relative since the final offer was only $2 million per season. So what did rogers boost their offer by? A $2-3 hundred thousand at most? Maybe they added a year? That is such a small amount of coin they likely just took it out of the team payroll budget.

I thought they added 2-3 yrs.

Anyway - maybe I'm being overly optimistic about the guy's influence after that run.

[cram]

Whenever we locked in this year's payroll, there's no doubt that the dollar remaining in this position (and possibly dropping, if oil remains in the tank) will have Rogers panicking. $140m US one year ago equaled $162m Canadian...it's now $195m. Long-term contracts might have been an especially risky proposition in their minds with that hanging over their heads, and it shouldn't be a shock if we see $20m or more lopped off the payroll for 2017.

And yeah, unless AA is able to manipulate the oil markets as he did the draft, he wasn't going to win any arguments with Rogers on the budget.

Would have been easier to deal with if the park was full every night.

[Schad]

Would have been easier to deal with if the park was full every night.

We'll likely get good crowds anyway. And Rogers wouldn't drop another, say, $30m Canadian in the hopes of getting an extra few thousand in most nights, particularly as that'd tie them to salary long-term. I don't think that it's coincidental that we signed short-term deals...minimizes exposure in case they feel the need to swing the club back to/under $100m in a couple years.

[cram]

Would have been easier to deal with if the park was full every night.

We'll likely get good crowds anyway. And Rogers wouldn't drop another, say, $30m Canadian in the hopes of getting an extra few thousand in most nights, particularly as that'd tie them to salary long-term. I don't think that it's coincidental that we signed short-term deals...minimizes exposure in case they feel the need to swing the club back to/under $100m in a couple years.

That's depressing.

[Schad]

It is, but it's the nature of the beast. Honestly, I hate the degree to which Rogers has made decisions based on the dollar, because it's so damned swingy. I don't think that it's coincidental that they authorized a big jump in payroll in 2008 when the currencies were on par...and then suddenly reversed course when the economy imploded and took the CAD with it. Similarly, I'm guessing that the on-par CAD/USD played a large role in the decision to suddenly add a tonne of payroll in late 2012, after which the CAD again tanked.

It's the reason myself and others feel that we need to operate differently...Rogers simply cannot be trusted to spend big, even if they have promised to do so, because every time the dollar changes substantially, so too does their willingness to fork over payroll. You can't build up and then build down a team every couple years and end up with anything more than an infuriating mess.

[polo007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bnicholsonsmith/status/678722272404905989[/tweet]

Los Angeles finished with a record payroll of $291 million this year, according to final calculations made by Major League Baseball on Friday and obtained by The Associated Press. For purposes of the tax, which uses a different calculation method and includes benefits, the Dodgers' payroll was $297.9 million.

A record 22 teams had payrolls of $100 million or more, up from 17 last year, and the average payroll was just under $130 million. Spending on 40-man major league payrolls totaled nearly $3.9 billion, according to MLB's calculation.

The average salaries of players on big league rosters and disabled lists on Aug. 31 was $3.95 million, the Major League Baseball Players Association said Friday, a 3.5-percent increase. MLB, which uses a slightly different methodology, had the average at $3.84 million, up 3.9 percent.

Among the teams that reached the League Championship Series, Toronto ranked 10th in payroll at $136 million, the Chicago Cubs 11th at $133 million, Kansas City 13th at $129 million and the Mets 19th at $110 million.

Still, Kansas City raised payroll by $31 million and won its first title since 1985. The Cubs' payroll went up by almost $40 million and is set to increase again after Chicago added pricey free agents Jason Heyward and Ben Zobrist.

The Mets went up by nearly $17 million and the Chicago White Sox, who finished fourth in the AL Central at 76-86, raised almost $28 million to $120 million. Houston increased by almost $28 million and reached the playoffs for the first time in a decade.

Teams cutting payroll included Philadelphia, down almost $38 million, and Arizona, which fell $28 million. In a quick turnaround, the Diamondbacks added free agent Zack Greinke this month for $206.5 million.

[Kurtz]

It is, but it's the nature of the beast. Honestly, I hate the degree to which Rogers has made decisions based on the dollar, because it's so damned swingy. I don't think that it's coincidental that they authorized a big jump in payroll in 2008 when the currencies were on par...and then suddenly reversed course when the economy imploded and took the CAD with it. Similarly, I'm guessing that the on-par CAD/USD played a large role in the decision to suddenly add a tonne of payroll in late 2012, after which the CAD again tanked.

It's the reason myself and others feel that we need to operate differently...Rogers simply cannot be trusted to spend big, even if they have promised to do so, because every time the dollar changes substantially, so too does their willingness to fork over payroll. You can't build up and then build down a team every couple years and end up with anything more than an infuriating mess.

I imagine we can probably apply for currency equalization cheques from MLB again.

[Schad]

I imagine we can probably apply for currency equalization cheques from MLB again.

We were only getting about $5m a year. And our ability to get such probably hinges in part on how much we're spending...I cannot imagine other owners being delighted if we were crying poor over the currency differential while spending among the top teams in baseball.

[whysoserious]

Does anyone seriously believe this off-season would have been materially different if Beeston and Alex were still around?

I've got news for you. Neither Price, natural grass or additional player funds would be here if the old regime were in charge. The difference is the new guys are being more forthright than their predecessors.

Fans and the media need to give Shapiro and Atkins some time before jumping to irrational conclusions and assuming the worst case scenario.

While I agree with you, the fact that Shapiro and his staff is looking bad is due to Rogers. They've set themselves up in a position to look bad. Rogers is the one that effed up the Beeston situation starting about 18 months ago and AA turning it around and then Rogers decisions since have put Shapiro in a very tough position.

And if this team somehow struggles next year and sits around being a .500 team like they've mostly been, Shapiro is going to get even more backlash. It's unfair but that's what the situation is. Let's hope the offense stays as good as it is and our pitching picks it up.

[polo007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/678963714163351552[/tweet]

What Shapiro has actually done during his short time in Toronto is leave the front office largely intact (surprisingly so, though it’s early days), acknowledge that the Jays weren’t really in the Price sweepstakes (nor was anyone else other than the Red Sox, who offered $37-million more than the next highest bidder), and when asked acknowledge that installing real grass in the dome wasn’t ownership’s highest priority.

Sorry, that’s not arrogance. That’s honesty.

You might wish that the Jays’ were going to be gifted with a $200-million payroll, but this owner always has and always will run the team as a bottom line business (one that provides a few added benefits, in terms of brand affinity and being a media content factory.) Don’t like that? Blame them, perhaps, but you’ll be blaming them for something that was equally true a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago.

As for grass, people within the organization have been saying quietly for quite some time that the possibility of it ever being installed was somewhere between a longshot and a pipe dream. The cynical take would be that talking about grass rather than baseball was a great way to distract cranky consumers who until, say, the last week of July 2015, had grown restless and unhappy with the people running the team.

No one knows to this day whether it could work, and if it could how much it would cost. Blame the owners again, if you like, for choosing to spend their money (or not spend their money) on other stadium improvements, but they might point to the full houses that were happy to watch the Jays play on a rug in September and October, and to all of those places where baseball is being contested in pristine settings lousy with photosynthesis, and yet the pleasing aesthetics alone somehow haven’t made the turnstiles spin.

Yes, the bottom-line. Priorities. Hate away.

But the messenger, to this point, hasn’t had a whole lot to do with any of that.

[C Court]

Brunt hits it out of the park with the opening few sentences:

Let’s get a couple of things straight.

Paul Beeston would not have grown grass at Rogers Centre and Alex Anthopoulos would not have signed David Price and to believe otherwise is to indulge in magical thinking.

But lord, there’s a lot of that going on right now.

[Santoki]

Brunt hits it out of the park with the opening few sentences:

Let’s get a couple of things straight.

Paul Beeston would not have grown grass at Rogers Centre and Alex Anthopoulos would not have signed David Price and to believe otherwise is to indulge in magical thinking.

But lord, there’s a lot of that going on right now.

Brunt is practically the only person worth reading at Sportsnet.

[whysoserious]

Brunt hits it out of the park with the opening few sentences:

Let’s get a couple of things straight.

Paul Beeston would not have grown grass at Rogers Centre and Alex Anthopoulos would not have signed David Price and to believe otherwise is to indulge in magical thinking.

But lord, there’s a lot of that going on right now.

Brunt is practically the only person worth reading at Sportsnet.

He really is and one of my favourite co-hosts on PTS.

The fact that there's no grass coming, the fact they didn't spend on Price or that they haven't gone out and spent on a bonafide ace is not a reflection of what Shapiro is doing and it's not a reflection on what Beeston/AA would do. It all leads back to the ownership.

As far as the grass thing is concerned, the fact that they kept punting this down the road every year tells you all you need to know whether it was going to happen or not. And if by some posters numbers the cost was in the $200 million dollar range then it makes no sense to do it. That could be spent on improving the fan experience, on players or held back for a new stadium eventually.

The Price thing bothers me more on a level of actually giving yourself the best shot to win coming off the second half they had. While I acknowledge the money in total and per year is just too much, it would have been really nice to see Rogers step up here and take a shot. I mentioned the goodwill it would have bought them and there's a lot of ifs on whether you get that money back either Price or another ace it would have been the perfect time to push your chips in here. You've already depleted the farm, you might as well go for the championship and if it doesn't work out in a year or two, you clear a bunch of salary and start rebuilding on the fly.

Anyways, what's done is done. Let's hope the Jays have a real good start to the year.

What we also need to recognize is there are a lot of casual fans pissed off at this off-season, mostly for the wrong reasons and placing their blame on the wrong people. But if this team has even a mediocre start to the season, things are going to get real ugly for Shapiro and I assume that will filter up to Rogers.

[C Court]

Brunt is not on PTS any longer. McCown kicked him off the show after Brunt appeared on Tim & Sid last month.

McCown wanted Brunt to be exclusive to PTS and Brunt said no.

[Fairview4Life]

Brunt is probably the best sports writer in the country. His boxing writing was always amazing.

[whysoserious]

Brunt is not on PTS any longer. McCown kicked him off the show after Brunt appeared on Tim & Sid last month.

McCown wanted Brunt to be exclusive to PTS and Brunt said no.

I'm pretty sure McCown has kicked all these guys off at some point and brought them back. I'm not sure why he wants such exclusivity, especially as his run is coming to an end. Hasn't he himself indicated that within a few years he'll likely be retiring/moving on to other ventures.

How many times has kicked Damien off?

[whysoserious]

Brunt is probably the best sports writer in the country. His boxing writing was always amazing.

Wasn't he the one that voiced over that Jays special last year or something? His voice and delivery of that piece was amazing.