Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[NecessaryEvil]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

It doesnt ...even if it did, thats not the topic.

the hell, am I talking to you? I want to know why HE thinks this is about Rose.

This whole thing is about the TEAM. So, yeah, it's indirectly about Rose and everyone with a Bulls uni on.

[NecessaryEvil]

Does someone even remember all the leaked passive-aggressive fights our FO had with people?

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Maybe this is Jimmy's way of bring the team together or trying to lead. I mean, it's a really bad idea, but it's just strange with how good a teammate Jimmy has always been to start doing this. I know he's a different player and person now that he's ascended into being a really, really good player, but I just can't see this guy being a cancer.

Which is why I think there is a silver lining here if the coaching staff and the players handle it right. Jimmy may just be trying to light a fire, which is the wrong way to go about it or get people so pissed off that they start fighting for each other, which is again is the wrong way to go about it. Idk, just weird to hear all this coming from a guy like Jimmy.

I hear you but don't agree at all. Jimmy Butler is nobodies boss. It's not like he's a former MVP or something. Why should they all of a sudden start playing with fire because Jimmy is displeased with their effort?'

[Rerisen]

What did Jimmy shed some light on? What?

That the team doesn't listen to the coach, didn't you read his quotes? Worse, doesn't hold them to account when they don't.

I said earlier in the year the team has the feel of a class doing whatever they want while a substitute teacher is in charge, Jimmy's comments line up exactly.

[bennjuiced34]

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Maybe this is Jimmy's way of bring the team together or trying to lead. I mean, it's a really bad idea, but it's just strange with how good a teammate Jimmy has always been to start doing this. I know he's a different player and person now that he's ascended into being a really, really good player, but I just can't see this guy being a cancer.

Which is why I think there is a silver lining here if the coaching staff and the players handle it right. Jimmy may just be trying to light a fire, which is the wrong way to go about it or get people so pissed off that they start fighting for each other, which is again is the wrong way to go about it. Idk, just weird to hear all this coming from a guy like Jimmy.

I hear you but don't agree at all. Jimmy Butler is nobodies boss. It's not like he's a former MVP or something. Why should they all of a sudden start playing with fire because Jimmy is displeased with their effort?'

I agree with you that Jimmy's not at the level to be able to do this nor is it the right way to go about doing it, but maybe in some twisted way this all works out. I do believe the Bulls have a strong locker room with good leadership, which is why I think this could end up turning into a positive if everyone gets on the same page.

Or it could just blow up in their faces.

[bennjuiced34]

What did Jimmy shed some light on? What?

That the team doesn't listen to the coach, didn't you read his quotes? Worse, doesn't hold them to account when they don't.

I said earlier in the year the team has the feel of a class doing whatever they want while a substitute teacher is in charge, Jimmy's comments line up exactly.

They were doing the same crap last year though. The team stopped responding to Thibs. The team isn't responding to Hoiberg. So, maybe it's the players that need to take ownership of this.

[Rerisen]

Jimmy should be thankful for Rose for putting him under his wing the first few years. Butler is a system player, who thinks he's better than what he is.

System players don't score 40 points in a broken offense running mostly iso. System players don't have .560 to .580 TS% scoring 20 points in a broken offense.

He is our best offensive player, our #1 option and our best isolation scorer right now.

[Indomitable]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

Everything is about Rose to him.

[NecessaryEvil]

Maybe this is Jimmy's way of bring the team together or trying to lead. I mean, it's a really bad idea, but it's just strange with how good a teammate Jimmy has always been to start doing this. I know he's a different player and person now that he's ascended into being a really, really good player, but I just can't see this guy being a cancer.

Which is why I think there is a silver lining here if the coaching staff and the players handle it right. Jimmy may just be trying to light a fire, which is the wrong way to go about it or get people so pissed off that they start fighting for each other, which is again is the wrong way to go about it. Idk, just weird to hear all this coming from a guy like Jimmy.

I hear you but don't agree at all. Jimmy Butler is nobodies boss. It's not like he's a former MVP or something. Why should they all of a sudden start playing with fire because Jimmy is displeased with their effort?'

I agree with you that Jimmy's not at the level to be able to do this nor is it the right way to go about doing it, but maybe in some twisted way this all works out. I do believe the Bulls have a strong locker room with good leadership, which is why I think this could end up turning into a positive if everyone gets on the same page.

Or it could just blow up in their faces.

Thing is, they used to have a strong locker room, plenty of players that have been in and out have stated so. But ever since Jimmy became hollywood as hell last season, who know's if that still holds up.

[NecessaryEvil]

Jimmy should be thankful for Rose for putting him under his wing the first few years. Butler is a system player, who thinks he's better than what he is.

System players don't score 40 points in a broken offense running mostly iso. System players don't have .560 to .580 TS% scoring 20 points in a broken offense.

He is our best offensive player, our #1 option and our best isolation scorer right now.

Then, how come the ball wasn't in his hands to close that first OT? They gave it to Rose and got out of the way.

[otwok]

My take:

I understand Jimmy is frustrated, but he shouldn't have gone to the media about it. I am a firm believer in handling things internally versus externally. Chicago has one of the worst media in all of basketball. It was also a really odd time for him to go to the media and complain, the team was obviously winded, they just lost a hard fought 4 OT game to a good team. And really, it's not like Jimmy tore it up on Saturday either.

This also has nothing to do with Rose. I don't know why posters assume Rose is the issue. He's been playing well the last few games, been more aggressive, looking good athletically. There really is no beef between Rose and Jimmy, and it doesn't show on the court and it really doesn't show off the court. I think too many posters like to read between the lines when there really isn't anything to read.

Nobody is getting traded, and it really was just Jimmy being frustrated. He's been frustrated this year but I think it is because he thought they would be a smooth offensive machine and tearing teams apart.

[Rerisen]

Does someone even remember all the leaked passive-aggressive fights our FO had with people?

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Jimmy called his own self out, is he fighting with himself too?

The guy wants a lazy insubordinate team to play harder and a laid back passive coach to try harder to make them do it.

He's picked the right fight exactly, just went about fighting it in a bad way in this case.

[bennjuiced34]

I hear you but don't agree at all. Jimmy Butler is nobodies boss. It's not like he's a former MVP or something. Why should they all of a sudden start playing with fire because Jimmy is displeased with their effort?'

I agree with you that Jimmy's not at the level to be able to do this nor is it the right way to go about doing it, but maybe in some twisted way this all works out. I do believe the Bulls have a strong locker room with good leadership, which is why I think this could end up turning into a positive if everyone gets on the same page.

Or it could just blow up in their faces.

Thing is, they used to have a strong locker room, plenty of players that have been in and out have stated so. But ever since Jimmy became hollywood as hell last season, who know's if that still holds up.

Well, then Hoiberg should give Jimmy what he wants. Hold him accountable, coach him harder. Jimmy also asked for more isolation opportunities, which Hoiberg retooled the offense to give him.

Eventually though Hoiberg is going to need to establish who the alpha dog is. I think Hoiberg has some bit to him and while he's laid back, he doesn't seem like a guy who will lay down. Don't perceive his kindness as weakness.

Turmoil like this can either bring a locker room together or divide it further. We'll see via pre/post game comments and how they play tonight which why this thing might go.

[Ice Man]

Then, how come the ball wasn't in his hands to close that first OT? They gave it to Rose and got out of the way.

Did you not make it to the 4th overtime?

[Nikola]

Wasn't there a team build(hangout day) a couple weeks ago and Jimmy was the only one not in attendance?

[musiqsoulchild]

Here's what Taj Gibson thinks of Fred Hoiberg. This interview is from 40 days ago. Much before Fred even asked him to start. So, this is unbiased info.

Gibson said he appreciates Hoiberg's more laid-back approach.

"It's cool sometimes," Gibson said. "It's just different after being accustomed (to Thibodeau) for so many years. But it's like having trained guard dogs: Release them and they pop open.

"So far it's been great. It's just a new fresh air."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-taj-gibson-fred-hoiberg-bulls-bits-spt-1117-20151116-story.html

And more, when asked to compare to Thibs:

Gibson was asked Monday to compare the approaches of Hoiberg and predecessor Tom Thibodeau.

"They are similar in how badly they want to win, how much they love the game," Gibson said. "You can tell when they talk to you. Like telling you old stories about how they used to coach or play back then. Every game you can tell the passion is there.

"But it is a lot different than when Thibs was here. He was here (in the practice facility) all the time. You never really saw him get away. Fred has his balance of knowing when to have guys in and when you tell guys to get away from the game."

Is Taj not as hard working as Jimmy? Is Taj not as accountable as Jimmy? Its all perspective - Taj is the ULTIMATE team man. He takes on whatever role he is asked to take on.

Jimmy, on the other hand, is not happy with the role that he is getting. Not happy with this teammates and not happy with his coach. Which is fine....but he is displaying all this in the media eye. Which immediately shoots down his credibility.

[bennjuiced34]

Does someone even remember all the leaked passive-aggressive fights our FO had with people?

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Jimmy called his own self out, is he fighting with himself too?

The guy wants a lazy insubordinate team to play harder and a laid back passive coach to try harder to make them do it.

It's self preservation. He wasn't calling himself out; he mentioned himself at the end after calling out his coach to say, 'well I'm not playing well either, but the main problem is ______.' He's pointing fingers. Usually that means he's placing blame on others and not himself.

[Rerisen]

Then, how come the ball wasn't in his hands to close that first OT? They gave it to Rose and got out of the way.

Because the team is praying that Rose gets back closer to his old level, to have enough talent to seriously compete. Because Rose used to be our best #1 option, but just giving him the ball isn't making it happen. He's been nowhere close.

[johnnyvann840]

Taj and Butler are not even speaking. Again, you don't wanna hear it that's fine. I get bashed for Melo info, which was 100% correct until he made a last second ditch. His travel plans were booked, he was on his way.

Take it how you want. I'm not a Taj fan, but he has been nothing but a professional. I can't say the same about Jimmy.

As I've said before, Jimmy needs to start sleeping more and staying away from 4am bars.

Maybe it's true but.. In our last game.... if you have it.. Jimmy and Taj are walking down the floor with their arms around each other in the 1st Q. Not sure if that is just on the court.. Seems odd two guys who don't speak would embrace each other on the court like that, though. Trying to see anything that matches up with this and I can't see it... they are sitting next to each other on the bench and talking even. IDK. maybe they are just being professional on the floor.

[musiqsoulchild]

Does someone even remember all the leaked passive-aggressive fights our FO had with people?

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Jimmy called his own self out, is he fighting with himself too?

The guy wants a lazy insubordinate team to play harder and a laid back passive coach to try harder to make them do it.

He's picked the right fight exactly, just went about fighting it in a bad way in this case.

Not everyone on the team believes Jimmy has this right.

Just from DIRECT quotes so far:

Noah
Taj

Thats 2 of the 5 of the Bulls vets- the other 2 being Kirk and Rose. Pau is not a "Bulls vet". He is an NBA vet.

So, of the 5 Chicago veterans, only Jimmy feels the need to constantly push back on his team, their effort and the coaching direction or lack thereof.

Theres such a thing as perspective. Jimmy's is clearly different than the rest of the vets on the team.

[Rerisen]

Theres such a thing as perspective. Jimmy's is clearly different than the rest of the vets on the team.

I understand that.

But I think the other vets on this team probably aren't showing great leadership, or something like this wouldn't occur.

There has been a leadership vacuum since Thibs was fired, and Jimmy has tried to fill it. He doesn't seem to be succeeding so far. Now whether that he doesn't know how to go about it (even prior now) or the rest of the team just won't respond to anyone, hard to say.