Game 30: Phoenix Suns (12-17) @ Utah Jazz (11-14)

[AtheJ415]

I'll say this also. I'm super disappointed that Chandler, our supposed veteran leader, is allowing a lot of this to happen. At the same time, everyone says we need a leader as a player, but how about as a coach? Our players are unhappy, unclear of their roles, and provide inconsistent effort while being held to inconsistent standards by the coach (I'm not sure what Tucker finally did to get benched, but him and Kieff and others get pulled way later than our young guys for mistakes). The coach is supposed to be a leader, if not the main leader. His job is to get people to buy in, to know the players and how they operate so he can motivate them, and to ensure they know what we're doing and why we're doing it (the ultimate goal). Can anybody see any signs of that all year?

[Dr Manute]

At least we will get a high draft pick.

[AtheJ415]

This team has needed a strict disciplinarian coach for a very long time now.

Even after Gentry was canned, I thought we should have went after a strict disciplinarian coach.

You mean a coach that will sit starters who don't play well and start 19 year old rookies instead. A coach who will sit a starting pf for 6 games for dogging it.

You all think you know what you want but you are not very good at seeing what you have.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

You would have a point if he didn't proceed to play both benched starters more minutes than the youngsters he started. Look back at our performance over 2.5 years and tell me this team has played disciplined basketball, and keep in mind this roster has been fully turned over in that time, so it can't be all on the players.

[AtheJ415]

Hornacek has done a **** job this year and I'm fine firing him but it won't solve the problems this team has. The issues are widespread and not easy to fix. Short of Sarver selling the team there's really no news that will make me excited about this franchise moving forward. It's a sad state of affairs.

Well, regardless of what happens, if we keep nailing the draft we will turn it around. Len, Warren, Booker, all look to be really good picks. Not many teams have drafted as well over the past 3 years (since McDonough's tenure). Talent wins. I don't think we've failed to accumulate talent relative to what we started out with. That's the one positive to me. I don't particularly like our vets. I don't respect them much at this point. Seeing them go will be 100% fine with me. Same with Hornacek.

For all those wanting to tank, thanks to our GM, we've drafted better than almost all of the teams with higher picks than us over the past 3 years.

[saintEscaton]

This season is in the gutter. A lost cause. Can't resurrect a rotting corpse, you can only make the stench a little more tolerable. Just gotta grind it out until the Summer where we will cut deadweight and clean house(hopefully if the higher ups realize that this once proud franchise is going nowhere). McDuh should be put on notice. I have a feeling that if Horny isn't fired this week we will just let him play out the remainder of his contract and let him leave instead of extending him. Although Sarver may be impatient and shake things up. Insisting on waiving the foam finger and wanting to send out a message to light a fire under this team's a*ss . Its funny how our assessment of Horny has gone from "he'll get us back to playing .500 treadmill ball" to "unintentional stealth-tanking" to now "wow he's lost the locker room its a total dumpster fire ABORT "

[WeekapaugGroove]

Hornacek has done a **** job this year and I'm fine firing him but it won't solve the problems this team has. The issues are widespread and not easy to fix. Short of Sarver selling the team there's really no news that will make me excited about this franchise moving forward. It's a sad state of affairs.

Well, regardless of what happens, if we keep nailing the draft we will turn it around. Len, Warren, Booker, all look to be really good picks. Not many teams have drafted as well over the past 3 years (since McDonough's tenure). Talent wins. I don't think we've failed to accumulate talent relative to what we started out with. That's the one positive to me. I don't particularly like our vets. I don't respect them much at this point. Seeing them go will be 100% fine with me. Same with Hornacek.

I agree. I've been a mcd supporter and think he's a good judge of talent. But he does deserve heat for evaluating chemistry. It's criminal negligence that keif was on this team to start the season and he also messed up not trading dragic last summer when his value was high.

[letsgosuns]

Current management has already shown a propensity to wait too long to make moves. They did it last year with Dragic, Thomas, and Plumlee. It ruined the season. This year, they have done it with Morris and they are going to do it with Hornacek. They are their own worst enemy. I have zero confidence McDonough knows what he is doing. And that is a big deal considering I was so excited when he was hired. He drafts well but that does not mean he has a clue how to put together a team.

The team is built around two selfish point guards that want the ball in their hands all the time. What more do you need to know about McDonough. Third year in a row he wants a dual point guard lineup and third year in a row this team is going nowhere. I keep saying the same things over and over again. Sarver is not selling the team so he needs to do what Ken Kendrick did and hire a guy ala Tony La Russa. That guy will come in and clean house and bring much needed respect back to the organization.

[AtheJ415]

Hornacek has done a **** job this year and I'm fine firing him but it won't solve the problems this team has. The issues are widespread and not easy to fix. Short of Sarver selling the team there's really no news that will make me excited about this franchise moving forward. It's a sad state of affairs.

Well, regardless of what happens, if we keep nailing the draft we will turn it around. Len, Warren, Booker, all look to be really good picks. Not many teams have drafted as well over the past 3 years (since McDonough's tenure). Talent wins. I don't think we've failed to accumulate talent relative to what we started out with. That's the one positive to me. I don't particularly like our vets. I don't respect them much at this point. Seeing them go will be 100% fine with me. Same with Hornacek.

I agree. I've been a mcd supporter and think he's a good judge of talent. But he does deserve heat for evaluating chemistry. It's criminal negligence that keif was on this team to start the season and he also messed up not trading dragic last summer when his value was high.

I just don't know quite what we would've gotten for Goran though. It's not like he was a perennial all-NBA player. He was a 14 point and 6-7 assist guy for his career, and then at age 28 blew up for 1 year and was about to be a free agent in the following offseason. 2 firsts, with 1 unprotected, may very well be as much as he would've gotten. I know I'd be hesitant if the Suns traded 2 firsts, including an unprotected one, for Demarre Carroll, a guy who hada similar blowup year at a later age.

[Jdiddy701]

I find it funny how people are blaming Sarver on why we are losing. If anybody wants us to win more it's going to be him. You think he's happy with us sucking? Getting a new owner will do what for us? I get it if you're upset with the Blanks hiring. But hiring Kerr and McD were great moves for our franchise. What free agent would you want him to spend big money on in the past? We have tried. Not paying Amare was a right call.. JJ was unhappy here but would have loved to see that work out. People say he's cheap.. Might be the case but I bet he will be willing to spend money if the right player came.

If Jeff gets fired its because Sarver. If Jeff stays on, it's because McD. Sarver is not to blame. All I'm saying is that it's not easy to go from losing to winning and it takes many years. Suns have young players and are on the right track.

A lot of this is fixing blanks mistakes which technically is Sarver's fault for the wasted years but overall Sarver hasn't been that bad. He is not perfect by no means and has ton of mistakes. I just think people blame him for everything.

I would blame him for outrageous ticket prices though!


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Revived]

If Jeff gets fired its because Sarver. If Jeff stays on, it's because McD. Sarver is not to blame.

[NavLDO]

This season is in the gutter. A lost cause. Can't resurrect a rotting corpse, you can only make the stench a little more tolerable. Just gotta grind it out until Summer where we will cut deadweight and clean house. I have a feeling that if Horny isn't fired this week we will just let him play out the remainder his contract and leave instead of extending him. Although Sarver may be impatient and shake things up. Insisting on waiving the foam finger and wanting to send out a message to light a fire under this team's a*ss . Its funny how our assessment of Horny has gone from "he'll get us back to playing .500 treadmill ball" to "unintentional stealth-tanking" to now "wow he's lost the locker room its a total dumpster fire ABORT "

That may be true, but Sarver 'shakes things up', I hope it's more than firing Hornacek. I hope he 'fires' so players too.

Here's the problem though. We have a GM that, and say what you want, but I'd argue, that almost refuses to take a 'losing' deal, at least in his eyes. McD will not 'blow-up' the roster unless we get, what McD feels, is fair value. Well, there is no way we are getting fair value for Chandler, Markieff, Tucker, Knight or even guys like Price or Teletovic, but for this team to change it's current trend of play, that is what is going to be needed. Horny may be a fairly large part of the blame, but we have at least 4 players that share in that blame ( the 4th player actually being the Bledsoe/Knight combo, not either of them b themselves, mind you). I'm sorry, but Knight has not significantly improved this season, and the Bledsoe/Knight backcourt is not working.

If we, as fans, want to see a sizable change in our current trend of play, than I'd argue that at least 3 of the first four I mentioned above need to be gone. But who is going to take on a 32 YO, $13M/per contract? (And BTW, fans here need to stop being disingenuous by escalating these contract values; in the past week alone, I've seen statements that Chandler and Knight's contracts as being $15M per--that is not the case, so by increasing the value to try to make a point against McD isn't fair if using overstated numbers).

Anyway, point being, if Sarver/McD want to 'blow it up' as they say, I hope they go full bore and not just fire Horny, because bringing in another HC, without moving our 'problem children', and expecting a vastly different result is not going to give them the vastly desired result they seek. You want change, Sarver? Blow up the non-working Bledsoe/Knight backcourt. Both are good players, but together, well, while it looks good on paper, in reality, it's not working. Then do whatever it takes to relieve yourselves of Kieff, and to a lesser extent, Tucker and Chandler, and again, I'd say get rid of all three plus Knight or Bledsoe, and see what happens.

I'm sure what I say above will be wildly unpopular, but I'm just trying to advocate for a huge 'blow-up' of a team that is not working, for whatever reason. I have nothing against these players individually, but together? Well, I'm starting to think starting Bledsoe/Booker/Warren/Leuer/Len will net us more losses than wins, but at least we'll know a) know what we have in them and b) force them to work on their weaknesses (Warren on D, etc.) in a game-time situation. Booker is the only one I'm worried about it affecting his psyche--the others are old enough to deal with it.

[KLEON]

Why don't the Suns play a more up-tempo style like they did against the Mavs in the 4th quarter last week?

[saintEscaton]

This season is in the gutter. A lost cause. Can't resurrect a rotting corpse, you can only make the stench a little more tolerable. Just gotta grind it out until Summer where we will cut deadweight and clean house. I have a feeling that if Horny isn't fired this week we will just let him play out the remainder his contract and leave instead of extending him. Although Sarver may be impatient and shake things up. Insisting on waiving the foam finger and wanting to send out a message to light a fire under this team's a*ss . Its funny how our assessment of Horny has gone from "he'll get us back to playing .500 treadmill ball" to "unintentional stealth-tanking" to now "wow he's lost the locker room its a total dumpster fire ABORT "

That may be true, but Saver 'shakes things up', I hope it's more than firing Hornacek. I hope he 'fires' so players too.

Here's the problem though. We have a GM that, and say what you want, but I'd argue, that almost refuses to take a 'losing' deal, at least in his eyes. McD will not 'blow-up' the roster unless we get, what McD feels, is fair value. Well, there is no way we are getting fair value for Chandler, Markieff, Tucker, Knight or even guys like Price or Teletovic, but for this team to change it's current trend of play, that is what is going to be needed. Horny may be a fairly large part of the blame, but we have at least 4 players that share in that blame ( the 4th player actually being the Bledsoe/Knight combo, not either of them b themselves, mind you). I'm sorry, but Knight has not significantly improved this season, and the Bledsoe/Knight backcourt is not working.

If we, as fans, want to see a sizable change in our current trend of play, than I'd argue that at least 3 of the first four I mentioned above need to be gone. But who is going to take on a 32 YO, $13M/per contract? (And BTW, fans here need to stop being disingenuous by escalating these contract values; in the past week alone, I've seen statements that Chandler and Knight's contracts as being $15M per--that is not the case, so by increasing the value to try to make a point against McD isn't fair if using overstated numbers).

Anyway, point being, if Sarver/McD want to 'blow it up' as they say, I hope they go full bore and not just fire Horny, because bringing in another HC, without moving our 'problem children', and expecting a vastly different result is not going to give them the vastly desired result they seek. You want change, Sarver? Blow up the non-working Bledsoe/Knight backcourt. Both are good players, but together, well, while it looks good on paper, in reality, it's not working. Then do whatever it takes to relieve yourselves of Kieff, and to a lesser extent, Tucker and Chandler, and again, I'd say get rid of all three plus Knight or Bledsoe, and see what happens.

I'm sure what I say above will be wildly unpopular, but I'm just trying to advocate for a huge 'blow-up' of a team that is not working, for whatever reason. I have nothing against these players individually, but together? Well, I'm starting to think starting Bledsoe/Booker/Warren/Leuer/Len will net us more losses than wins, but at least we'll know a) know what we have in them and b) force them to work on their weaknesses (Warren on D, etc.) in a game-time situation. Booker is the only one I'm worried about it affecting his psyche--the others are old enough to deal with it.

On point. I wholehearedly agree. We are doomed without a change of ownership. Our current state of dysfunction is only symptomatic of Sarver's proven incompetence

[TeamTragic]

Why don't the Suns play a more up-tempo style like they did against the Mavs in the 4th quarter last week?

This team has ZERO identity and they are clearly frustrated. Hornacek has to be blamed for that. They are playing with ZERO confidence with not so much as a game plan or physically drawn up plays and apparently we don't even practice because our team is "family friendly".

What the **** is this a couples retreat at the spa or an NBA team? If Sarver is running the franchise like this then once again I have no words and he is clueless about what it takes to win.

[Revived]

This season is in the gutter. A lost cause. Can't resurrect a rotting corpse, you can only make the stench a little more tolerable. Just gotta grind it out until Summer where we will cut deadweight and clean house. I have a feeling that if Horny isn't fired this week we will just let him play out the remainder his contract and leave instead of extending him. Although Sarver may be impatient and shake things up. Insisting on waiving the foam finger and wanting to send out a message to light a fire under this team's a*ss . Its funny how our assessment of Horny has gone from "he'll get us back to playing .500 treadmill ball" to "unintentional stealth-tanking" to now "wow he's lost the locker room its a total dumpster fire ABORT "

That may be true, but Sarver 'shakes things up', I hope it's more than firing Hornacek. I hope he 'fires' so players too.

Here's the problem though. We have a GM that, and say what you want, but I'd argue, that almost refuses to take a 'losing' deal, at least in his eyes. McD will not 'blow-up' the roster unless we get, what McD feels, is fair value. Well, there is no way we are getting fair value for Chandler, Markieff, Tucker, Knight or even guys like Price or Teletovic, but for this team to change it's current trend of play, that is what is going to be needed. Horny may be a fairly large part of the blame, but we have at least 4 players that share in that blame ( the 4th player actually being the Bledsoe/Knight combo, not either of them b themselves, mind you). I'm sorry, but Knight has not significantly improved this season, and the Bledsoe/Knight backcourt is not working.

If we, as fans, want to see a sizable change in our current trend of play, than I'd argue that at least 3 of the first four I mentioned above need to be gone. But who is going to take on a 32 YO, $13M/per contract? (And BTW, fans here need to stop being disingenuous by escalating these contract values; in the past week alone, I've seen statements that Chandler and Knight's contracts as being $15M per--that is not the case, so by increasing the value to try to make a point against McD isn't fair if using overstated numbers).

Anyway, point being, if Sarver/McD want to 'blow it up' as they say, I hope they go full bore and not just fire Horny, because bringing in another HC, without moving our 'problem children', and expecting a vastly different result is not going to give them the vastly desired result they seek. You want change, Sarver? Blow up the non-working Bledsoe/Knight backcourt. Both are good players, but together, well, while it looks good on paper, in reality, it's not working. Then do whatever it takes to relieve yourselves of Kieff, and to a lesser extent, Tucker and Chandler, and again, I'd say get rid of all three plus Knight or Bledsoe, and see what happens.

I'm sure what I say above will be wildly unpopular, but I'm just trying to advocate for a huge 'blow-up' of a team that is not working, for whatever reason. I have nothing against these players individually, but together? Well, I'm starting to think starting Bledsoe/Booker/Warren/Leuer/Len will net us more losses than wins, but at least we'll know a) know what we have in them and b) force them to work on their weaknesses (Warren on D, etc.) in a game-time situation. Booker is the only one I'm worried about it affecting his psyche--the others are old enough to deal with it.

I usually disagree with your posts because many of them are very homeristic but there's not a word I can disagree with in your post.

Everything you said would be a dream come true but I think we both know its unrealistic because Sarver won't accept a complete rebuild like that. But you are right, just firing Hornacek isn't going to solve everything or anything in particular. Moves that follow it also will be crucial. But firing Hornacek is a start.

[NavLDO]

This season is in the gutter. A lost cause. Can't resurrect a rotting corpse, you can only make the stench a little more tolerable. Just gotta grind it out until Summer where we will cut deadweight and clean house. I have a feeling that if Horny isn't fired this week we will just let him play out the remainder his contract and leave instead of extending him. Although Sarver may be impatient and shake things up. Insisting on waiving the foam finger and wanting to send out a message to light a fire under this team's a*ss . Its funny how our assessment of Horny has gone from "he'll get us back to playing .500 treadmill ball" to "unintentional stealth-tanking" to now "wow he's lost the locker room its a total dumpster fire ABORT "

That may be true, but Sarver 'shakes things up', I hope it's more than firing Hornacek. I hope he 'fires' so players too.

Here's the problem though. We have a GM that, and say what you want, but I'd argue, that almost refuses to take a 'losing' deal, at least in his eyes. McD will not 'blow-up' the roster unless we get, what McD feels, is fair value. Well, there is no way we are getting fair value for Chandler, Markieff, Tucker, Knight or even guys like Price or Teletovic, but for this team to change it's current trend of play, that is what is going to be needed. Horny may be a fairly large part of the blame, but we have at least 4 players that share in that blame ( the 4th player actually being the Bledsoe/Knight combo, not either of them b themselves, mind you). I'm sorry, but Knight has not significantly improved this season, and the Bledsoe/Knight backcourt is not working.

If we, as fans, want to see a sizable change in our current trend of play, than I'd argue that at least 3 of the first four I mentioned above need to be gone. But who is going to take on a 32 YO, $13M/per contract? (And BTW, fans here need to stop being disingenuous by escalating these contract values; in the past week alone, I've seen statements that Chandler and Knight's contracts as being $15M per--that is not the case, so by increasing the value to try to make a point against McD isn't fair if using overstated numbers).

Anyway, point being, if Sarver/McD want to 'blow it up' as they say, I hope they go full bore and not just fire Horny, because bringing in another HC, without moving our 'problem children', and expecting a vastly different result is not going to give them the vastly desired result they seek. You want change, Sarver? Blow up the non-working Bledsoe/Knight backcourt. Both are good players, but together, well, while it looks good on paper, in reality, it's not working. Then do whatever it takes to relieve yourselves of Kieff, and to a lesser extent, Tucker and Chandler, and again, I'd say get rid of all three plus Knight or Bledsoe, and see what happens.

I'm sure what I say above will be wildly unpopular, but I'm just trying to advocate for a huge 'blow-up' of a team that is not working, for whatever reason. I have nothing against these players individually, but together? Well, I'm starting to think starting Bledsoe/Booker/Warren/Leuer/Len will net us more losses than wins, but at least we'll know a) know what we have in them and b) force them to work on their weaknesses (Warren on D, etc.) in a game-time situation. Booker is the only one I'm worried about it affecting his psyche--the others are old enough to deal with it.

I usually disagree with your posts because many of them are very homeristic but there's not a word I can disagree with in your post.

Everything you said would be a dream come true but I think we both know its unrealistic because Sarver won't accept a complete rebuild like that. But you are right, just firing Hornacek isn't going to solve everything or anything in particular. Moves that follow it also will be crucial. But firing Hornacek is a start.

Well usually, I can see a 'plan' or 'attempt' at getting better. But right now? This team has what appears to be no direction. And if there isn't a plan or direction, then it's hard to be 'homeristic'.

[rsavaj]

Why don't the Suns play a more up-tempo style like they did against the Mavs in the 4th quarter last week?

They're tied for 2nd in pace already, using 101.6 possessions per game.
1st is Golden State, using less than 1 more possession a game, at 102.3

This team can't really play any faster than it's already playing.

Whatever Hornacek's faults are, you can't say he doesn't have the team playing "up-tempo".

[Puff]

You mean a coach that will sit starters who don't play well and start 19 year old rookies instead. A coach who will sit a starting pf for 6 games for dogging it.

You all think you know what you want but you are not very good at seeing what you have.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I mean someone who actually yells at players when they screw up. I mean someone who actually shows emotion on the sideline. I mean someone that actually looks pissed and upset after losses. I mean someone that doesn't tolerate the kind of idiotic play from the players.

And I like how you throw that "starting 19 year old" thing as if he does it all the time. He did it for the FIRST time yesterday. He started Warren for the first time yesterday when he should have probably done that last year. Congrats, it only took Hornacek 3 years to grow some balls.

And Hornacek himself already said that it was McD and Sarver's decision to bench Kieff or else Hornacek would have continued to play that POS.

OH. So you want a screaming head coach. You mean like Pop and Phil Jackson, because they scream all the time at players who screw up. Yeah. That works with professionals. Jeez.

Also, it was clear it was Horny's decision to bench Kieff. He talked it over with his GM and owner because they are actively trying to trade that same player, so his decision would impact their plans.

Man, I don't have any particular love for Hornacek, but a little objectivity in evaluating is warranted.

Shame on anyone that does not agree with your take. I guess that is not allowed.

You have your opinion and others have their own. This is the internet.

IMO, and I know you will disagree which is fine, Hornacek lost this team last year because of the way he handled the Morris twins along with the way he handled minutes for Goran, Green, IT, Warren, Len etc, etc, etc. I am not new to the bash Hornacek band wagon, I was one of the pioneers starting last year.

The problem is that I do not know whom we could get at this point that would be better. I see none of our assistants as capable replacements and really doubt that Thibodeau would want any part of a Sarver owned team. For that matter I do not think any coach of any merit would want to work for Sarver. That is the real problem, Sarver.

I am hoping that somehow Hornacek can solve this but I have my doubts.

[AtheJ415]

I find it funny how people are blaming Sarver on why we are losing. If anybody wants us to win more it's going to be him. You think he's happy with us sucking? Getting a new owner will do what for us? I get it if you're upset with the Blanks hiring. But hiring Kerr and McD were great moves for our franchise. What free agent would you want him to spend big money on in the past? We have tried. Not paying Amare was a right call.. JJ was unhappy here but would have loved to see that work out. People say he's cheap.. Might be the case but I bet he will be willing to spend money if the right player came.

If Jeff gets fired its because Sarver. If Jeff stays on, it's because McD. Sarver is not to blame. All I'm saying is that it's not easy to go from losing to winning and it takes many years. Suns have young players and are on the right track.

A lot of this is fixing blanks mistakes which technically is Sarver's fault for the wasted years but overall Sarver hasn't been that bad. He is not perfect by no means and has ton of mistakes. I just think people blame him for everything.

I would blame him for outrageous ticket prices though!


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Getting a new owner would give us a clean slate reputation-wise. Sarver has a reputation as a cheapskate. I agree he hasn't been for a number of years, but that perception is still out there. It impacts us in FA.

[letsgosuns]

Gambo said on his show recently that Markieff's benching came directly from Sarver. He felt that Markieff was not playing with passion and effort and told Hornacek to stop playing him. That is not my opinion, that is what Gambo said, and I believe his source is actually Sarver.