Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Ice Man]

If we all agree that Jimmy shouldn't say what he did, why are we not talking about the FO doing the EXACT same thing except the fact they don't own to the leak where as Jimmy stands by his statement?

Yep. Jimmy manned up. GarPax didn't. No surprise there, it never figured to be any other way.

[coldfish]

I'm not going to go through this entire thread so I don't know if the Lowe article has been posted in here or not, but I hope people went to town on Zach for attacking Butler's character, assuming the front office went to him and gave him some info to diminish Butler's persona.

Or is it only the local guys that are only ordered to write negative stuff when the FO sees fit?

I'm just curious, what do you think happened? KC relayed all of the negative stuff on Butler within hours of him going off on Hoiberg. His information was long term stuff. It also had comments about the negative things about Butler came from people within the organization.

What possible world exists where someone from within the organization didn't either feed that to KC or green light him to release information he was sitting on as a response to Butler's comments?

What Lowe said

But his rise has engendered some minor hard feelings within the team. There is a sense that Butler relishes the trappings of stardom a bit too much, and that he doesn't do enough to support his teammates, as a playmaker or a cheerleader. The Bulls have been unusually vulnerable to infighting when things go bad during a game. They are not a team that socializes together off the floor.

Basically, that's a "Butler likes the things that come with the guy but he's not doing the little things either".

What KC Said

It's a good thing Butler included himself in the group of players Hoiberg needs to hold accountable. Internally, there is some consternation over Butler's emboldened state spilling into selfishness, not to mention puzzlement over his hesitancy to fully embrace Hoiberg's offense.

What would seemingly be an ideal fit for a player as mobile and athletic as Butler has instead led to Butler going to Hoiberg early this season and talking about the need for more touches in the mid-post and on isolations, sources said. When Hoiberg recently confirmed Doug McDermott's assertion that the Bulls started running sets that worked last year, calling plays for Butler was one of the changes.

Furthermore, according to sources, Butler used profanity while addressing the coaching staff once and disrupted a film session on another occasion with critical comments. While those defending Butler say such instances stem from his frustration that few players match his work ethic, his habit of warming up on his own has alienated others to the point that Joakim Noah recently talked to Butler, a source said.

This is the FO/COACHING STAFF FIRING BACK THROUGH THE MEDIA AND VEILED SOURCES to damage Jimmy's voice. Ever since Gar has taken over, the top brass has found no slight not worth getting into and sending KC to write "sources say". If we all agree that Jimmy shouldn't say what he did, why are we not talking about the FO doing the EXACT same thing except the fact they don't own to the leak where as Jimmy stands by his statement? Also, how many times do we have to have a "sources say" story that is clearly leaked by the coaching staff and/or FO? If anybody wants to find a reason why Gar might be fired, it's his pettiness and his the fact he's willing to go to war with any person over any sort of criticism of the team and/or Hoiberg.

The ONLY way this is worse is if Fred released this information.

I get tired of this organization and their pettiness.

The adult way to handle this is to do what Pax did. Sit down, face to face and let Jimmy rant. Once he was done, you explain to him the plan and tell him that going public with this is counterproductive. That's the adult thing to do and management 101 type stuff.

I would be shocked if it wasn't Gar that went to KC and yeah, its really not good. Publicly undermining the credibility of your best player isn't in the best interest of the team. Particularly given the situation. Jimmy was wrong for going public but probably correct in what he was saying. I would rank the problems here as:
1. Jimmy is correct that agendas by players is an issue and that the players need to be cracked down on
2. The FO AGAIN went after one of their people in the media
3. Jimmy keeps airing stuff out in public

I can't dig them up right now, but I thought there were comments after Thibs was fired that JR told Gar that if the public fights continued, it was his ass up on the firing line next. Does anyone else remember that?

[Ice Man]

I would be shocked if it wasn't Gar that went to KC

I'm sure it was. Pax is direct to a fault. Coming directly to Vinnie to choke him was a bad idea. So was holding a press conference to counterattack JVG last year. Sometimes, you don't want to man up. You want to cool off instead.

So no, I don't see Pax doing stealth smears. That seems like Gar all the way.

[greenl]

If we all agree that Jimmy shouldn't say what he did, why are we not talking about the FO doing the EXACT same thing except the fact they don't own to the leak where as Jimmy stands by his statement?

Yep. Jimmy manned up. GarPax didn't. No surprise there, it never figured to be any other way.

Only the Bulls organization can leak info to the press disparaging their players and coaches. The players and coaches can not do the same. Everything is to stay in house- until it serves the purposes of the organization to leak something. It's a Reinsdorfian business principle.

[Red Larrivee]

I'm not going to go through this entire thread so I don't know if the Lowe article has been posted in here or not, but I hope people went to town on Zach for attacking Butler's character, assuming the front office went to him and gave him some info to diminish Butler's persona.

Or is it only the local guys that are only ordered to write negative stuff when the FO sees fit?

It just seems strange that some are quick to dismiss the theory that Jimmy just doesn't know how to control his newfound "stardom." He even said it himself that this is the first time he's ever been a leader on a team. You're bound to run into hurdles when you're breaking new ground.

I think Jimmy's intentions are good, but he should either change his leadership style or fallback a little.

[wolffy]

I find this whole saga interesting.

Sometimes stars put there stamp on a team and don't care who's toes get stepped on. And its a good thing ultimately.

Other times they aren't able to pull off the same power play, either because they aren't respected for some reason or they aren't good enough.

I'd like to see Jimmy pull it off honestly. He's a good player and has a great work ethic. He has to get his leadership skills right. Rose has to take a back seat if that what it comes to.

[TheStig]

If we all agree that Jimmy shouldn't say what he did, why are we not talking about the FO doing the EXACT same thing except the fact they don't own to the leak where as Jimmy stands by his statement?

Yep. Jimmy manned up. GarPax didn't. No surprise there, it never figured to be any other way.

I find it funny that a lot of posters here throw a 25 year old new to the shining star Butler under the bus but that seasoned executives twice his age get to lead repeated smear campaigns behind "team sources". Most executives seam to just let that thing roll off their back. GarPax will smear players in the media, call out members of the media and have two huge local sports writers in their pocket. Its how they get away with their cost cutting, luxury tax aversion and questionable behavior. They're like the media tycoon villain from the Bond film.

[greenl]

They're like the media tycoon villain from the Bond film.

All GarPax has ever asked for is sharks with friggin laser beams. Is that so hard?

[musiqsoulchild]

If we all agree that Jimmy shouldn't say what he did, why are we not talking about the FO doing the EXACT same thing except the fact they don't own to the leak where as Jimmy stands by his statement?

Yep. Jimmy manned up. GarPax didn't. No surprise there, it never figured to be any other way.

I find it funny that a lot of posters here throw a 25 year old new to the shining star Butler under the bus but that seasoned executives twice his age get to lead repeated smear campaigns behind "team sources". Most executives seam to just let that thing roll off their back. GarPax will smear players in the media, call out members of the media and have two huge local sports writers in their pocket. Its how they get away with their cost cutting, luxury tax aversion and questionable behavior. They're like the media tycoon villain from the Bond film.

A smear campaign implies that there is little to no truth to the perpetrators of the campaign.

That would be what Jimmy is doing to his teammates.

Not what KC's report is. Or Zach Lowe's.

The way it works is very simple: Trump says something about Hillary to the media. Then the media goes to Hillary for a comment about Trumps comment. And ultimately, Trump comes out looking like an idiot.

In today's media world, the aggressor cant just say whatever they want without repurcussion. There will be follow-up questions and those questions will be answered by the originally lampooned party.

[TheStig]

Yep. Jimmy manned up. GarPax didn't. No surprise there, it never figured to be any other way.

I find it funny that a lot of posters here throw a 25 year old new to the shining star Butler under the bus but that seasoned executives twice his age get to lead repeated smear campaigns behind "team sources". Most executives seam to just let that thing roll off their back. GarPax will smear players in the media, call out members of the media and have two huge local sports writers in their pocket. Its how they get away with their cost cutting, luxury tax aversion and questionable behavior. They're like the media tycoon villain from the Bond film.

A smear campaign implies that there is little to no truth to the perpetrators of the campaign.

That would be what Jimmy is doing to his teammates.

Not what KC's report is. Or Zach Lowe's.

The way it works is very simple: Trump says something about Hillary to the media. Then the media goes to Hillary for a comment about Trumps comment. And ultimately, Trump comes out looking like an idiot.

In today's media world, the aggressor cant just say whatever they want without repurcussion. There will be follow-up questions and those questions will be answered by the originally lampooned party.

Ignoring the right or wrong of going to the media. I think there is more truth to Jimmy's statement than in GarPax's. So your statement makes no sense.

Not to mention you ignored the key points. Two wrongs don't make a right and that seasoned mature executives should know better than a 25 year old new to stardom.

[Red Larrivee]

I find this whole saga interesting.

Sometimes stars put there stamp on a team and don't care who's toes get stepped on. And its a good thing ultimately.

Other times they aren't able to pull off the same power play, either because they aren't respected for some reason or they aren't good enough.

I'd like to see Jimmy pull it off honestly. He's a good player and has a great work ethic. He has to get his leadership skills right. Rose has to take a back seat if that what it comes to.

That's simply what it boils down to. Jimmy can be a leader of this team, or even the leader. But the extremes you go to with leadership will only be tolerated if you have the hardware to back it up. You can't throw teammates and coaches under the bus just because you made the all-star team last season. There are many veterans on this team and some are more accomplished than Jimmy. Maybe it works on the younger players, but that's really only McDermottt, Snell, Mirotic and Portis.

[WesleyExChiFan]

I'm not going to go through this entire thread so I don't know if the Lowe article has been posted in here or not, but I hope people went to town on Zach for attacking Butler's character, assuming the front office went to him and gave him some info to diminish Butler's persona.

Or is it only the local guys that are only ordered to write negative stuff when the FO sees fit?

It just seems strange that some are quick to dismiss the theory that Jimmy just doesn't know how to control his newfound "stardom." He even said it himself that this is the first time he's ever been a leader on a team. You're bound to run into hurdles when you're breaking new ground.

I think Jimmy's intentions are good, but he should either change his leadership style or fallback a little.

That's what I'm seeing too. Especially with Lowe reporting it. He's alienating his teammates. Everyone knows he's the best player on the team, but it's obvious that he's not buying in and doesn't want to. The only type of coach he knows is the Thibs/Buzz Williams type. Hoiberg isn't his type of coach, so what we're seeing is Jimmy pushing back.

It's obvious that Jimmy needs to get with the program. It's a team sport, even when you're the best player.

[musiqsoulchild]

I find it funny that a lot of posters here throw a 25 year old new to the shining star Butler under the bus but that seasoned executives twice his age get to lead repeated smear campaigns behind "team sources". Most executives seam to just let that thing roll off their back. GarPax will smear players in the media, call out members of the media and have two huge local sports writers in their pocket. Its how they get away with their cost cutting, luxury tax aversion and questionable behavior. They're like the media tycoon villain from the Bond film.

A smear campaign implies that there is little to no truth to the perpetrators of the campaign.

That would be what Jimmy is doing to his teammates.

Not what KC's report is. Or Zach Lowe's.

The way it works is very simple: Trump says something about Hillary to the media. Then the media goes to Hillary for a comment about Trumps comment. And ultimately, Trump comes out looking like an idiot.

In today's media world, the aggressor cant just say whatever they want without repurcussion. There will be follow-up questions and those questions will be answered by the originally lampooned party.

Ignoring the right or wrong of going to the media. I think there is more truth to Jimmy's statement than in GarPax's. So your statement makes no sense.

Not to mention you ignored the key points. Two wrongs don't make a right and that seasoned mature executives should know better than a 25 year old new to stardom.

Jimmy HIMSELF said that some people may agree with his assessment and some people may NOT. He was talking about Bulls players --- -does that sound like a FACT to you OR a Jimmy School of Leadership endorsed opinion?

Contrast that to the following:

1) Noah didnt like that Jimmy was practicing by himself and spoke to him about it. FACT. If not, either Noah or Jimmy would have said something about it.

2) Taj doesnt agree with Jimmy's assertions about the team not playing hard enough - he did in 2015, not this season. This season he has contradicted Jimmy specifically AND lauded Fred for having a balanced approach.

As far as seasoned executives are concerned - I dont know what they have to do with this.

The media doesnt have that level of access. An assistant coach or a trainer or a 14th -15th player in the rotation or an agent --- those are typically the sources. NBA FO's dont have all this time to get caught up in trivial ****.

Unless its another opinion being bandied about as a "Fact" that Gar Pax will leak stories to the media. How do you explain Zach Lowe? A reputed NBA reporter. Was his piece also a GarPax mouthpiece? Did GarPax use the Iowa / Chicago mafia to force Lowe to indulge in the "smear campaign"?

[humble servant]

That one seems to think that Jimmy at the best player on the team bar and this recent injury to Noah he was coming back to all star form and in his All Star farm he's better overall play at the gym my brother second Derrick Rose if you mix its all star form is better than Jimmy Jimmy Butler you brother is and always will be the best in the East but not the best in the league he's not as top 15 player is on the top 20 players in the top three defensive player that's it other than that you can build around them in any organization smart enough with training and get something better your big city get a big franchise player because free agency has not done it Carmelo Anthony LeBron James excetra excetra Tim Duncan has it work

[Ice Man]

The way it works is very simple: Trump says something about Hillary to the media. Then the media goes to Hillary for a comment about Trumps comment. And ultimately, Trump comes out looking like an idiot.

That's not what happened. GarPax made no public comment on what Jimmy Butler said. The correct analogy is that in response to Trump's comment, which it did not like, Hillary's campaign team called journalists known to be favorable and dished up ugly details, given strictly off the record, that the team had learned about Trump's 2nd divorce.

[TheStig]

A smear campaign implies that there is little to no truth to the perpetrators of the campaign.

That would be what Jimmy is doing to his teammates.

Not what KC's report is. Or Zach Lowe's.

The way it works is very simple: Trump says something about Hillary to the media. Then the media goes to Hillary for a comment about Trumps comment. And ultimately, Trump comes out looking like an idiot.

In today's media world, the aggressor cant just say whatever they want without repurcussion. There will be follow-up questions and those questions will be answered by the originally lampooned party.

Ignoring the right or wrong of going to the media. I think there is more truth to Jimmy's statement than in GarPax's. So your statement makes no sense.

Not to mention you ignored the key points. Two wrongs don't make a right and that seasoned mature executives should know better than a 25 year old new to stardom.

Jimmy HIMSELF said that some people may agree with his assessment and some people may NOT. He was talking about Bulls players --- -does that sound like a FACT to you OR a Jimmy School of Leadership endorsed opinion?

Contrast that to the following:

1) Noah didnt like that Jimmy was practicing by himself and spoke to him about it. FACT. If not, either Noah or Jimmy would have said something about it.

2) Taj doesnt agree with Jimmy's assertions about the team not playing hard enough - he did in 2015, not this season. This season he has contradicted Jimmy specifically AND lauded Fred for having a balanced approach.

As far as seasoned executives are concerned - I dont know what they have to do with this. Unless its another "opinion" being bandied about as a "Fact" that Gar Pax will leak stories to the media.

The media doesnt have that level of access. An assistant coach or a trainer or a 14th -15th player in the rotation or an agent --- those are typically the sources.

NBA FO's dont have all this time to get caught up in trivial ****.

FYI
1. Could easily be that Jimmy gets in early and practices by himself.
2. Which leads us to 2 that could be the sames. Not to mention, Taj doesn't strike me as a hard worker in practice either.


That is laughable at your "opinion" that long time media and a Bulls employee (sam smith) don't have access. Its a joke that its an assistant coach or 14-15 guy. With all the turnover, you're basically painting pete myers and randy brown as the culprits. Two guys that are clearly front office yes men. SO I guess its true that they could have said it after someone higher up asked.

But I'm not engaging in this lengthy debate with you. We have long time opposite opinions on the matter and neither will convince the other. I just really dislike your assertions of fact and opinion because 99% of this is opinion and not provable beyond any doubt. All we have to go by is the track record and historical events that build a case.

[humble servant]

Excuse the typo was using voice talk and didn't get to edit before sending. Kinda of like jimmy's rant lol

[musiqsoulchild]

That one seems to think that Jimmy at the best player on the team bar and this recent injury to Noah he was coming back to all star form and in his All Star farm he's better overall play at the gym my brother second Derrick Rose if you mix its all star form is better than Jimmy Jimmy Butler you brother is and always will be the best in the East but not the best in the league he's not as top 15 player is on the top 20 players in the top three defensive player that's it other than that you can build around them in any organization smart enough with training and get something better your big city get a big franchise player because free agency has not done it Carmelo Anthony LeBron James excetra excetra Tim Duncan has it work

Hitting the bottle.

HARD!

[musiqsoulchild]

Ignoring the right or wrong of going to the media. I think there is more truth to Jimmy's statement than in GarPax's. So your statement makes no sense.

Not to mention you ignored the key points. Two wrongs don't make a right and that seasoned mature executives should know better than a 25 year old new to stardom.

Jimmy HIMSELF said that some people may agree with his assessment and some people may NOT. He was talking about Bulls players --- -does that sound like a FACT to you OR a Jimmy School of Leadership endorsed opinion?

Contrast that to the following:

1) Noah didnt like that Jimmy was practicing by himself and spoke to him about it. FACT. If not, either Noah or Jimmy would have said something about it.

2) Taj doesnt agree with Jimmy's assertions about the team not playing hard enough - he did in 2015, not this season. This season he has contradicted Jimmy specifically AND lauded Fred for having a balanced approach.

As far as seasoned executives are concerned - I dont know what they have to do with this. Unless its another "opinion" being bandied about as a "Fact" that Gar Pax will leak stories to the media.

The media doesnt have that level of access. An assistant coach or a trainer or a 14th -15th player in the rotation or an agent --- those are typically the sources.

NBA FO's dont have all this time to get caught up in trivial ****.

FYI
1. Could easily be that Jimmy gets in early and practices by himself.
2. Which leads us to 2 that could be the sames. Not to mention, Taj doesn't strike me as a hard worker in practice either.


That is laughable at your "opinion" that long time media and a Bulls employee (sam smith) don't have access. Its a joke that its an assistant coach or 14-15 guy. With all the turnover, you're basically painting pete myers and randy brown as the culprits. Two guys that are clearly front office yes men. SO I guess its true that they could have said it after someone higher up asked.

But I'm not engaging in this lengthy debate with you. We have long time opposite opinions on the matter and neither will convince the other. I just really dislike your assertions of fact and opinion because 99% of this is opinion and not provable beyond any doubt. All we have to go by is the track record and historical events that build a case.

Explain Zsch Lowe's article --- if this is all opinion that was pushed hard by Gar Pax on KC as a "revenge" piece.

Even typing that sounds comical. Revenge piece --- who has the time for that.

Its much more likely that the basketball media smelled a story with repeated assertions from Jimmy to Scoop Jackson and then in the actual Post-Game.

And then they went and did their job - which is to investigate and report.

Sure -- some parties that were offended by Jimmy's move could have been the sources. But thats hardly eye-raising. Its human behavior. And justifiable, human behavior in this case.

[musiqsoulchild]

Excuse the typo was using voice talk and didn't get to edit before sending. Kinda of like jimmy's rant lol

Nice save!

And 1'd.