Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

I love jimmy but he is a #2 on a really good team.

Ideally yes, but when the best you have is a top 20 or top 15 guy, the odds of getting another even better guy is actually pretty low.

And someone still has to lead even if you don't have that megastar like LeBron or Steph.

[musiqsoulchild]

I swear I wrote something about how these minor scuffles/tussles will NOT impact team chemistry.

Its because of the culture of the organization. And the players that we will be getting rid of this offseason ( PAU.....hopefully Rose - fingers crossed)

We have a culture of winning. One year isnt going to flip that. This isnt Philly or the Knicks or the recent Lakers.

Winning IS PART of the BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL MODELS. We have to win significantly in the playoffs to get a high enough seeding to at least make the second round. And next season, the ECF's.

Thats PART of the dollar generation model....so there is franchise buy in to the winning habit and the winning culture.

Of course there is desire to have a winning culture, but intention is not always reality.

And right now reality is the culture is bad.

This type of season is risking Fred's future authority of all these young players forming critical first impressions. And by extension, potentially other players that might join the team.

The ideal is for Fred to have a super successful first season, as Thibs did, not just for the sake of this year, but to establish this guy is a respectful quality coach. Which will help him lead and get buy in for future seasons.

If this year ends in messy turmoil in the locker room and effort wise, regardless if we eek into the 2nd round, then he risks getting a rep like Vinny Del Negro. That's not good for the long term plan.

You are curve fitting data now that doesnt belong to the curve.

Fred was getting an inherited roster. He knows how the cap cycle operates. He is a former Assistant GM and was actually being groomed for a GM role.

He knows "HIS" roster is coming next season. That would have ABSOLUTELY been part of the discussions before he inked the deal.

Do you know how easy it is to talk to a coach who used to be an Exec? Gar hired him for that MORE than anything else --- so there is no loss in translation. So that Strategy and Tactics align. That the roster fits the on-court product and vice versa.

The winning culture and the winning habit is a Chicago Bulls organizational thing. Its not something that Thibs created.

So, I am not concerned as much --- especially because this season Rose has SHUT UP in front of the media. He tried once and Hoiberg immediately used the media for the 21 second rule. That shut up Derrick for good.

And Pau isnt as invested ---- those are the 2 players that are MOST likely to create ill-will. Jimmy isnt creating ill-will.......he just needs to slow his roll.

Thats all there is to it --- Jimmy's leadership I am certain has the blessings of the FO. Not so much Pau or Rose.

[Rerisen]

The winning culture and the winning habit is a Chicago Bulls organizational thing.

Players don't care what happened in the past. And they don't care if you tell them 'we are a winning organization'.

What matters to actually achieving player buy in is what is happening with the boots on the ground.

Right now the culture is crap, and there is no guarantee whatsoever its going to be good next year.

Might want to buff up on 2008, when after this organization was spiraling down until the luck of winning the lottery happened.

[musiqsoulchild]

Do you own shares of the Bulls? Because I'm fairly sure we are both just fans. The Business model doesn't really factor into it from a fans perspective.

I dont own shares of the Bulls - I'll need to be an owner and I dont have that kind of moolah. If I did, I would not invest there - I'd invest in the Pistons. A depressed economy on its way back up --- people tend to spend more in the disposable income. So, I can buy in cheap and watch the shares balloon.

The BUSINESS model ABSOLUTELY factors into the fan perspective.

From a strict logic perspective:

A consistently good team needs FEWER things to fall in place to become a GREAT team than a High-Low model team needs to achieve intermittent greatness.

This is VERIFIABLY true - even in Chicago's case. We were already a consistently good team when Rose joined us and we quickly rocketed to an elite team. This was true for 2 seasons.

And then after ACL we settled back into being a consistently good team....see how FEW factors are needed to make the leap from consistently good to being Elite?

The factor was a 1.7% luck job to grab an elite superstar. There might be few factors involved but it doesn't make it easy.

I did not say how EASY or how DIFFUCULT.

I am only talking about HOW MANY.

The ease and the diffuculty part of the argument also exist for a team that tanks to get a high pick ( that doenst have a HIGH success rate either) OR for a team that ammasses cap room for FA's ( not a HIGH success rate either) NOR for a team that is trading constantly ( again, not a HIGH success rate).

I can give plenty of examples for the above.....but they are superflous. I think you know what I am talking about.

And the High - Low model works BEST if you already have a LEGIT STUD on the roster. We only had that for 2 seasons in the last 20 years.

And for those 2 seasons - we were ELITE.

[musiqsoulchild]

The winning culture and the winning habit is a Chicago Bulls organizational thing.

Players don't care what happened in the past. And they don't care if you tell them 'we are a winning organization'.

What matters to actually achieving player buy in is what is happening with the boots on the ground.

Right now the culture is crap, and there is no guarantee whatsoever its going to be good next year.

Might want to buff up on 2008, when after this organization was spiraling down until the luck of winning the lottery happened.

There is a guarantee ......this Organization / Ownership / FO believes that a good culture translates to more wins.

And more wins translates to more playoff success (though less direct correlation).

And more playoff games means more $$$.

So, there's your guarantee ...in GREEN.

[Indomitable]

That's not what happened. GarPax made no public comment on what Jimmy Butler said. The correct analogy is that in response to Trump's comment, which it did not like, Hillary's campaign team called journalists known to be favorable and dished up ugly details, given strictly off the record, that the team had learned about Trump's 2nd divorce.

You are EXACTLY right --- except for the part about Trump's second divorce.

Jimmy cussing out at the coaching staff and not wanting to practice with his other teammates ARE both directly related to the issue of DAMAGING Jimmy's credibility as a leader.

And then Fred follows it up with " He is a good leader" AND worse " He is one of the leaders".

Trumps second divorce doesnt impact the presidential run directly --- but Trump having his second divorce AND not paying alimony payments (for example) goes DIRECTLY to his credibility as a presidential candidate.

No one is talking about Jimmy's sex life or his eating habits, The story was DIRECTLY in relation to discrediting Jimmy's "leadership" BS.

Gar? Could you please work on a trade for an SF instead of defending your craziness? Might want to use some of that down time between the FA and Draft periods for some actual work.

Jimmy was wrong to approach it lie this and he 26. Not a big deal but I it was annoying about his age.

Anyway if we get a wing player, I will be happy. We have had a issue at sf since Deng was traded.

[Rerisen]

There is a guarantee ......this Organization / Ownership / FO believes that a good culture translates to more wins.

And more wins translates to more playoff success (though less direct correlation).

And more playoff games means more $$$.

So, there's your guarantee ...in GREEN.

We aren't talking about profits. We are talking about the culture of the team, its crap.

The profits will always be there for this team so long as they stay out of the cellar. That's not a hard task.

When you default to, "Well the team still makes money," in any basketball related conversation, we know the conversation has reached the bankruptcy point ironically.

[Eesee1]

Something I haven't seen mentioned about Lowe's article:

There was much praise for Noah when he seemingly accepted his demotion to the bench without complaining, "for the good of the team." Now we read that Noah and others were pissed about Niko starting over him.

Put this together with Jo telling Hoiberg in the offseason he and Taj play best together. A possible bid for them to start, or at least get the majority of the minutes?

Then Noah isn't supportive at all of Jimmy's statements and portrays himself as the vet who's telling Butler how he should act. Jimmy didn't sound as if he appreciated Noah's advice-giving getting out to the media. "He didn't tell me anything I didn't already know."

I'm concerned there is an old guard/new blood conflict going on here. The rumored dealing of Taj or Noah might quell this.

There is absolutely an old guard / younger players dynamic at play here. I just wrote a lengthy post on it.

The issue I think is best described by a 2 by 2 matrix. Let he 2 variables be ENGAGEMENT to the teams success and Youth/Vets.

There are some HIGHLY engaged vets ( Noah. Taj, Kirk, Dunleavy).
There are some LOW engagement vets ( Pau , Rose )
There are some HIGH engagement youngsters ( Jimmy, Doug, Bobby)
There are some LOW engagement youngsters ( Snell, Niko)

Thats the issue.....if we can reduce the 2 variables to just 1, that would be a HUGE win for team chemistry.

That breakdown makes a lot of sense.

Since Niko is obviously low-engagement right now...I hope his morale wasn't damaged by resentment from the vets. I only say this because if word has gotten out to the media, it had to manifest itself internally.

And yes, I know some might say thay would make Niko soft, which may be true. It would still be unhealthy for the team.

[Rerisen]

The problem is moving the goal posts doesn't work when people saw where they used to be.

The Bulls are just another run of the mill team in the East right now and that was NOT the plan. As much as some will try to sell you that.

It's unlikely general manager Gar Forman or executive vice president of basketball operations John Paxson would cut bait on a roster they called championship-caliber.

The FO expected the Bulls to get to the Finals last year under the circumstances, they didn't, Thibs was fired.

Expectations for performance were no less for this year. And arguable greater, as 2nd year and young players would be further advanced, Rose and Noah would be further healed off surgeries (one is), and a new better fitting coach would maximize the talent by implementing brilliant form fitting schemes on offense and minutes management, leading to much better player effort and 'buy-in' vs the last coach that they quit on.

None of it is happening so far, it's been a wrong reading by the FO and failing grade on those assumptions.

[musiqsoulchild]

There is a guarantee ......this Organization / Ownership / FO believes that a good culture translates to more wins.

And more wins translates to more playoff success (though less direct correlation).

And more playoff games means more $$$.

So, there's your guarantee ...in GREEN.

We aren't talking about profits. We are talking about the culture of the team, its crap.

The profits will always be there for this team so long as they stay out of the cellar. That's not a hard task.

No---- I didnt make my point clearly enough.

The organization believes in a winning culture as ESSENTIAL to running a successful, profit making franchise.

Thats why they will not let the winning culture slip for too long. You'll see that the moves we make next season will be as much about basketball talent as they will about leadership and experience.

[DASMACKDOWN]

The profits will always be there for this team so long as they stay out of the cellar. That's not a hard task.

Unfortunately that isnt really the case either. Bulls were still consistently top 10 in attendance even in the Terribulls Era.

JR gets his money regardless.

[musiqsoulchild]

The problem is moving the goal posts doesn't work when people saw where they used to be.

The Bulls are just another run of the mill team in the East right now and that was NOT the plan. As much as some will try to sell you that.

It's unlikely general manager Gar Forman or executive vice president of basketball operations John Paxson would cut bait on a roster they called championship-caliber.

The FO expected the Bulls to get to the Finals last year under the circumstances, they didn't, Thibs was fired.

Expectations for performance were no less for this year. And arguable greater, as 2nd year and young players would be further advanced, Rose and Noah would be further healed off surgeries (one is), and a new better fitting coach would maximize the talent by implementing brilliant form fitting schemes on offense and minutes management, leading to much better player effort and 'buy-in' vs the last coach that they quit on.

None of it is happening so far, it's been a wrong reading by the FO and failing grade on those assumptions.

Do you call a second round team Elite or just another team?

I stick to what I said this offseason - if we dont make the second round, its a disspointment.

[Defensive ID]

The bottom line is: Butler is a low volume, high pct. scorer who should be focusing on Rebounding and ball pressure defense. Until this issue is addressed the numbers indicate that the Bulls will be average at best. On no level has he lead a team to overachieve.

[Rerisen]

The profits will always be there for this team so long as they stay out of the cellar. That's not a hard task.

Unfortunately that isnt really the case either. Bulls were still consistently top 10 in attendance even in the Terribulls Era.

JR gets his money regardless.

I don't think that would happen now. It was still in the afterglow of the dynasty, season tickets still had waiting lists tripping beyond the last title.

Nowadays, many of the fans of the Bulls won't even have been following the team in those days, and would no longer rabidly support a 30 win type team just because we once had MJ. Certainly not over multiple terrible seasons.

[Rerisen]

Do you call a second round team Elite or just another team?

I stick to what I said this offseason - if we dont make the second round, its a disspointment.

Neither, 2nd round team is just a 'good' team.

Even 2nd round is compromising goals. Start of season take was Bulls should be considered #2 in the East, thus avoid meeting Cleveland till the ECF.

Even getting to the 2nd round I consider to be in question at this point.

By team performance any team the Bulls could play in the 1st round has a realistic chance of beating them. Whether over 50%, depends on the matchup.

Right now we would play the Raptors on the road in the 1st round. Lowry would likely decimate Rose in that series.

[musiqsoulchild]

The profits will always be there for this team so long as they stay out of the cellar. That's not a hard task.

Unfortunately that isnt really the case either. Bulls were still consistently top 10 in attendance even in the Terribulls Era.

JR gets his money regardless.

I don't think that would happen now. It was still in the afterglow of the dynasty, season tickets still had waiting lists tripping beyond the last title.

Nowadays, many of the fans of the Bulls won't even have been following the team in those days, and would no longer rabidly support a 30 win type team just because we once had MJ.

If it happens --- its not because of fans not caring enough.

Its because of the streaming/tv era.

People who can afford to go to the games are deciding to instead just enjoy it at home.

[Rerisen]

If it happens --- its not because of fans not caring enough.

Its because of the streaming/tv era.

People who can afford to go to the games are deciding to instead just enjoy it at home.

If you have a truly exciting team, or standout talent like GS, people will still desire the live experience.

If you are just wallowing in mediocrity or just above average, sure they will keep following, but TV is good enough.

[musiqsoulchild]

Do you call a second round team Elite or just another team?

I stick to what I said this offseason - if we dont make the second round, its a disspointment.

Neither, 2nd round team is just a 'good' team.

Even 2nd round is compromising goals. Start of season take was Bulls should be considered #2 in the East, thus avoid meeting Cleveland till the ECF.

Even getting to the 2nd round I consider to be in question at this point.

By team performance any team the Bulls could play in the 1st round has a realistic chance of beating them. Whether over 50%, depends on the matchup.

Right now we would play the Raptors on the road in the 1st round. Lowry would likely decimate Rose in that series.

Thats what I said --- I wanted us to go into the bracket opposite Cleveland and somehow sneak into the ECF's.

That was with an assumption about Rose ----- a very rational, easy to acheive assumption.

I cant help it if Rose goes all Space Jam on the team.

[Rerisen]

I cant help it if Rose goes all Space Jam on the team.

We should get a better PG than Kirk or AB then, to leverage up minutes when Rose is bad.

It's actually not that hard to considerably bump our chances to get out of the first round. Right now we are about even with a lot of teams we could play, one decent move could nudge you past them.

[musiqsoulchild]

If it happens --- its not because of fans not caring enough.

Its because of the streaming/tv era.

People who can afford to go to the games are deciding to instead just enjoy it at home.

If you have a truly exciting team, or standout talent like GS, people will still desire the live experience.

If you are just wallowing in mediocrity or just above average, sure they will keep following, but TV is good enough.

I dont know if you just want to prove me wrong or if there is a reason this is even relevant.

There is a thing in CPG (Consumer Products and Goods) called suppressed demand. The Warriors have a UNIQUE MIX of:

1) A fanbase with the highest gross incomes in the sports
2) Pent up demand (this is an actual thing in retial/CPG)

It will not fizzle out because of Reason 1.

A sharp contrast is Cleveland --- they have Pent up demand ( a desire to see a championship) BUT they lack on the first reason.