Trade Deadline Countdown....December 2015

[AtheJ415]

Here's one for Warren:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=warretj01&y1=2016&p2=parkeja01&y2=2016&y3=2013&p3=haywago01&p4=tuckepj01&y4=2016&p5=georgpa01&y5=2013&p6=leonaka01&y6=2014


He's nearly identical to Hayward in some key areas. Also, this further questions how in the hell he sees fewer minutes than Tucker at any point.

[thamadkant]

But Kobe was consistent and he scored more than Knight, rebounded more... Played better defense...attracted defensive focus and teams planned against him.

Eye test alone Kobe impacts the game more than Knight at 24.


Bradley Beal... Knight is closer.... Comparable stats wise. But Beal plays off the ball... He doesnt make his team mates worse.. Because he finishes the plays most of the times rather than setting up the play. Beal runs around whilst Wall does the facilitating and setting up.


Knight's game style resembles Arenas and Ellis more so.

[AtheJ415]

But Kobe was consistent and he scored more than Knight, rebounded more... Played better defense...attracted defensive focus and teams planned against him.

Eye test alone Kobe impacts the game more than Knight at 24.


Bradley Beal... Knight is closer.... Comparable stats wise. But Beal plays off the ball... He doesnt make his team mates worse.. Because he finishes the plays most of the times rather than setting up the play. Beal runs around whilst Wall does the facilitating and setting up.


Knight's game style resembles Arenas and Ellis more so.

Kobe consistently put up more points, but that's because he consistently took more shots. It's hard to say that a guy who shot worse across the board is consistently a better scorer. I absolutely agree that Kobe played better D. That's an area Knight must improve on, and that's why Kobe's WS/48 is higher. I'm just commenting on the argument that Knight is an inefficient scorer and you can't win a title with him being so inefficient at scoring.

Knight's numbers this year are simply better than Beal's. That said, Beal is 2 years younger. But Knight finishes the plays most of the time rather than setting up the play also. I don't get this logic that Knight is a point guard in our system. Most of the time he is a 2. He plays like a 2. He isn't setting other people up, he's looking for his shot, just like you'd expect a 2 guard to do, and the only plays he really initiates are pick and rolls. If you're trying to say a guy makes his team better offensively simply because he runs off of screens and catches and shoots instead of running a pick and roll, despite missing more shots than the guy coming off of the pick and roll, then that's just incorrect imo.

[kennydorglas]

So who all is cheering for tank/draft pick status at this point? I'm on that bandwagon. Go Pelicans.

I just want another Wildcat in this team (Skal)
hopefully he'll still struggle like this all year long

[bwgood77]

I remember me and I think it was Kerrsed or DRK, that used to be really big Bismack Biyombo fans. I remember whenever I used to say Suns should trade for him, people would say "Oh he plays for the Bobcats and he can't get playing time there and their worst team so that means he sucks"...

Fast forward to now and he's DESTROYING THE GLASS. He just had a freaking 20 rebound game. I cant remember the last time a Suns player had 20 rebounds in a game. Has it even ever been done in our franchise history? Maybe Barkley I guess...

He's averaging 9 rebounds a game as a backup to Valaciunas and through a couple of spot starts.

I would probably take Biyombo over Chandler but again it's all about fit and getting the best out of your players. Dwayne Casey (former assistant of Rick Carslie) has done a fantastic job with Biyombo, the former Bobcats bust..

I had mentioned him too, and noticed his stats recently for a few games, and was surprised, because I remember JDLAW was really against him and never thought he would get better, but he has since regressed and taken out of starting lineup (perhaps he only started due to an injury though). I'd probably take him over Chandler too, just because he probably puts in 110% effort, especially if Chandler has checked out, and ESPECIALLY if he has checked out as a leader. I think there were more people than you guys mentioning Biyombo though...not even sure I remember DRK mentioning him.

[bwgood77]

So who all is cheering for tank/draft pick status at this point? I'm on that bandwagon. Go Pelicans.

I just want another Wildcat in this team (Skal)
hopefully he'll still struggle like this all year long

I'd rather him be a stud this year and get him.

[garrick]

Anyone remember Scott Skiles or Terry Porter?

It's not enough to be a tough screaming angry coach that alone doesn't guarantee a young team will actually respond.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

[kennydorglas]

So who all is cheering for tank/draft pick status at this point? I'm on that bandwagon. Go Pelicans.

I just want another Wildcat in this team (Skal)
hopefully he'll still struggle like this all year long

I'd rather him be a stud this year and get him.

If he explodes, he'll be top2 this year... i dont think we're bad or lucky enough to get him at this spot.

[AtheJ415]

I'll add this too, for those questioning whether experience can really make guys turn the ball over less or pass better:

Both Knight and Bledsoe this year have lower turnover %'s. Look at their career TO%'s and they clearly show a declining trend. Bledsoe's assist %'s also clearly show a positive trend. Knight's assist % is down, but he's playing the 2 now as opposed to the 1, so I expect that.

I see the same trends with Goran, Steph, Rubio, Lowry, Nash (up until he became really, really old, at which point it reversed),in their year to year numbers. Only really Chris Paul of the people I saw showed little improvement, but that's likely because he is an unusual passer who came right into the league at an elite level. So this idea that guys are born with a high or low IQ, imo, is faulty. There are some specific scenarios where that holds (Javale McGee, possibly Devin Booker on the good side, Rick Carlisle as a player even), but overall guys usually learn how to avoid turnovers and get better at passing via experience, playing, and coaching.

[AtheJ415]

Anyone remember Scott Skiles or Terry Porter?

It's not enough to be a tough screaming angry coach that alone doesn't guarantee a young team will actually respond.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

Very true. There's a lot of ways to coach. The important thing is to find the method that works best for getting through to the team and the individual key players. I'm not sure what the right way to go is with this team. Maybe it's an ultra young guy. Maybe it's a disciplinarian. Maybe it's a Brad Stevens type. That's still TBD at this point imo.

[Barkley_34]

I'll add this too, for those questioning whether experience can really make guys turn the ball over less or pass better:

Both Knight and Bledsoe this year have lower turnover %'s. Look at their career TO%'s and they clearly show a declining trend. Bledsoe's assist %'s also clearly show a positive trend. Knight's assist % is down, but he's playing the 2 now as opposed to the 1, so I expect that.

I see the same trends with Goran, Steph, Rubio, Lowry, Nash (up until he became really, really old, at which point it reversed),in their year to year numbers. Only really Chris Paul of the people I saw showed little improvement, but that's likely because he is an unusual passer who came right into the league at an elite level. So this idea that guys are born with a high or low IQ, imo, is faulty. There are some specific scenarios where that holds (Javale McGee, possibly Devin Booker on the good side, Rick Carlisle as a player even), but overall guys usually learn how to avoid turnovers and get better at passing via experience, playing, and coaching.

I really like your posts, very aware and without hatred. Only the actual analysis. As I said earlier, most of the fans have never seen the franchise go through this process to rebuild, which makes the sentimental analysis, this even more difficult. Please continue posting.

[garrick]

I think we're just a talented PF away from really competing, some cheap veterans would help though I really don't know off the top of my head if anyone is available for the vet min.

[Puff]

I do not know why many people think McDonough wins all his trades. I judge trades based on individual success as well as team success.

The Bledsoe trade. Did the Suns really win it? Gonna most likely be three straight years without the playoffs and some people want Bledsoe off the team now (including me) because of his garbage attitude. The Clippers seem just fine without Bledsoe. Jared Dudley has been on a couple of playoff teams since the trade. Dudley is all heart and Bledsoe takes games off.

I know you don't like Bledsoe but seriously how can you not call that trade a win? Dudley is a great guy but him <<< Bledsoe.

Bledsoe and Knight get all that hate but without them this team would be on Philli level :banghead:

This. I feel like some here are delusional enough to think that a team of Dudley, Gortat,and other "high IQ vets" like Scola would somehow drag this team to the playoffs. We are still a rebuilding team. That has always been true despite the hopefullness that we'd sneak into the playoffs this year.

We were a team with relatively unvaluable, aging vets 3 years ago set out to fully rebuild the entire roster. There wasn't a single guy who was young enough and good enough to be called anything other than a potential rotation player on a contender.

Then we had some early success and everyone screamed playoffs. Then, because we don't play the pass-first style of the past, everyone hates on the guards constantly. Their salaries are high, they are our best players, and they deserve blame for how this year has gone, but our future is regardless much brighter because we have them. I think some of the more old school fans with traditional PG mindsets, which only 3 starting PGs in the entire league still have today (Rubio, Paul, Rondo), just find our current guards so unlikeable that there is nearly nothing they could do to make them happy. When we win, it's "we can't win a title with these PGs" even though none of those pass first guys have won titles in awhile. When we lose, it's "look, we paid them all this money and we suck so I'm right. Let's get less talented team guys".

I really question how much NBA hoops some watch leaguewide given the exaggerated hot take comments that freuqently occur anytime one of these guys has a bad game. I bet it's mostly the Suns and the Warriors or Spurs. Everyone on basically every team in the league looks like they don't know what they're doing compared to those 2 teams right now, and I'd also point out that while the teams move the ball on both, their PGs are still scorers first. Steph makes his team better mostly because his shooting draws so much attention. He is never shy about shooting the rock, and will frequently take what many here would call bad shots (iso based shots, one on one dribbling to free up space, pullups from insane distances). He's just such a good shooter they go in. Parker has never been a pass first guy, but his team is so good overall that they make the right plays and are tough to defend.

The same happened with Atlanta. The same team of guys that was poor passers and "low IQ" according to their own fan base, brought in a new coach who demanded something different, changed the culture, added just a few guys and suddenly the entire team is "heady, smart players" and we see people here advocating for Jeff Teague, a guy who goes one on one as much as anybody in the league.

I rarely see posts berating the skill level of either Bledsoe or Knight. I think most everyone believes they are both young and talented. However when they take poor shots (Knight), play with little effort (Bledsoe) and continue to get minutes from the coach fans want to take their frustrations out on someone. Since they are our highest paid players they receive the wrath. That is part of the territory.

The Spurs pass the ball and assistant coaches that have left the Spurs are coaching teams that pass the ball. The Spurs do not and have not had a pass first point guard like Nash, Paul or Rondo but their teams have always shared the ball. It is demanded and by doing that they create great shots for everyone while keeping everyone involved. We currently pass the ball as a team only on occasion. When we do, we play well and are friendly to the eye. This is my main frustration with Hornacek. Quite frankly maybe he does not know how to coach it. After all he played most of his years with the greatest pass first point guard in league history in John Stockton. Players like Stockton, Nash & Paul are great eye candy but their teams never won a championship. I think their teams are and have been too dependent on them making every key play.

I just want to see this TEAM share the ball. It is really fun to watch the Spurs and Warriors play because those TEAMS share the ball. I really think that the Suns have players that are willing and capable of sharing the ball, yeah even Bledsoe and Knight. IMO our coach is doing a lousy job of convincing the TEAM to buy into that concept. At this point I do not know what we are trying to do on the offensive end.

Markieff gave Hornacek another lease on life as an NBA coach. I hope he can convince these guys to play the right way, soon.

I am also tired of fans blaming all of our problems on Markieff. I want him gone as much as anyone but if he is that big of a problem then our management (Sarver, McDonough and Hornacek) should have cleaned this up long ago. They are the only ones that can solve this problem.

[Revived]

I would actually take Scola on this team over any of our current PFs. Yea he still sucks defensively but it's not like we have some defensive studs here anyway. He gives great effort and makes plays offensively.

I like that he doesn't take plays off and busts his ass. Toronto loves him over there.

[Fo-Real]

I think taking Tucker off the starting unit took the one scrappy energy player and sucked the life out of the other starters. No energy, no hustle to start the game and flat there after. I know he isn't a scorer but if you are gonna start a score only guy like TJ at sf, then you can get away with starting a hustle energy pf like Kenneth Faried. Also that's why you bring in a change up guy as a backup.... to change sit up from time to time. We are asking all of our pfs to do the same things as eathother, we get predictable. Faried makes things happen with his hustle and energy and gets other teammates going with it, then you bring in a change up streach 4 like Telly to CHANGE **** UP!! Defensive C's like Chandler and Leno can help him on D and I would even keep Tucker on the roster as the change up at sf when Telly is in. Tucker is frustrated, if we get rid of the dead weight in Kief and possibly Knight, I think he gets back to blue collar work, hell I might even play him at sg some, he has been effective there in the past. Get rid of the b.s. and let them play. I don't know how to get Faried but I would deffenitly ask what they wanted. Also. Don't know if you guys noticed but Faried and Cousins played excellent together while on team USA, really complemented eachother well and had chemistry.

[Revived]

Here's one for Warren:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=warretj01&y1=2016&p2=parkeja01&y2=2016&y3=2013&p3=haywago01&p4=tuckepj01&y4=2016&p5=georgpa01&y5=2013&p6=leonaka01&y6=2014


He's nearly identical to Hayward in some key areas. Also, this further questions how in the hell he sees fewer minutes than Tucker at any point.

Crazy that for being as much of a non 3pt shooter as he is, Warren's only made 7 less 3s than Tucker...despite playing over 100 minutes less

[rsavaj]

I was just thinking that if McDonough wanted to go sheer salary-dump, he could unload Kieff/Tucker/Chandler to Brooklyn for JJ's ridiculous expiring. Johnson's a crap player these days(totally lost his shooting touch but at least gives you 4 apg, so maybe he works in the frontcourt as a 2ndary facilitator) so you're not getting any assets out of that deal, but it does basically free up 25 million in cap space. Brooklyn might do it as part of a foolish playoff push.

heck, if you can get RHJ out of that deal, then I might actually do it. Problem is I don't see who we'd realistically get in FA. You'd have enough space for a max offer, maybe 2, but I don't see Durant coming here. Drummond is restricted. Whiteside is unrestricted but not sure if that's the way to go since we have Len

[Revived]

Eric Bledsoe not top 10 among guards for all star votes in the West.

Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Thompson, Harden, Rondo, Igoudala. Lillard, Ginobili and Parker are all above him.

His chances were probably slim to begin with but I guess you can say he can kiss all star good bye (even through coach's votes or alternates) with the way he's played lately.

[AtheJ415]

I was just thinking that if McDonough wanted to go sheer salary-dump, he could unload Kieff/Tucker/Chandler to Brooklyn for JJ's ridiculous expiring. Johnson's a crap player these days(totally lost his shooting touch but at least gives you 4 apg, so maybe he works in the frontcourt as a 2ndary facilitator) so you're not getting any assets out of that deal, but it does basically free up 25 million in cap space. Brooklyn might do it as part of a foolish playoff push.

heck, if you can get RHJ out of that deal, then I might actually do it. Problem is I don't see who we'd realistically get in FA. You'd have enough space for a max offer, maybe 2, but I don't see Durant coming here. Drummond is restricted. Whiteside is unrestricted but not sure if that's the way to go since we have Len

I don't know. I'd consider it, but it really depends on what is out there for those 3 individually. If kieff does have negative value, then who knows. I don't think Tucker has more than 2nd round value. I have no idea how to characterize Tyson's value. I think he has some value to some specific teams, but not many can fit his salary. It's basically just 3 or 4 teams.

[TASTIC]

How about the Blazers?

Could we get Harkless + Leonard for Kieff? Neither guy has delivered on their potential though both would be after a sizeable raise I suspect.

I just can't see us getting a deal where the majority of Suns fans are happy. Casual fans will likely be like 'WTF is that all?!' whereas realists like readers of this forum will probably understand the reality that his value is only slightly higher than mine! Haha