Game 30: Detroit Pistons (17-12) @ Atlanta Hawks (18-12) - 8:00 PM ET

[Todd3]

As Milsap and KD said earlier this week, make your dang FTs, then you wouldn't have to worry about getting pulled.

Dre misses FTs because he overthinks them and never had to worry about that part of fundamentals. These kids are groomed to just play inside the post and body up the opponents from the earliest of ages. Why do you think they practically coast in High School only using their physical gifts? They're never taught to practice night in and out of pure fundamentals like having tight handles and shooting early on.

It's the average life of an everyday aspiring bigman. Too many bad grade school coaches out there instilling these bad habits early on.

I don't think that is the case here. He practices them as much as possible, but when your are that big it's physically harder. It's like you or I trying to make them with a tennis ball (not that extreme but you get the point). It is easy for good shooters to say just make your FTs, but it is no easier for him than if he told them to just go get 20 rebounds. Every player has different strengths and weaknesses and it's unfair that there's a rule that exploits some players weakness but not others. If you are allowed to intentionally make your opponent do what they aren't good at, why stop at FTs? Drummond should be allowed to foul PGs and make them have to out-rebound him for possession lol. Sounds silly but making someone who doesn't even have the ball intentionally shoot FTs is just as silly. The point of FTs is supposed to be to compensate a shooter for getting fouled while shooting. If a guy doesn't have the ball what is he shooting FTs for, it makes no sense. Stupid rule and I suspect it will be changed by the time Dre is in his prime.

Bingo, this is the issue. It happens intentionally on non-basketball play. A hack a dre foul, realistically, is no more of a basketball play than committing a flagrant. Doesn't really involve interaction from the offense or the defense (and no I don't consider hugging someone at mid court interaction).

Totally agree. I'm completely fine with fouling to stop a dunk. It's a basketball play and the player with the ball at least has a chance to still make the dunk. Dre doesn't even have the ball when he is getting fouled.

I have no issue with people fouling Dre when he has the chance to dunk/lay the ball in near the hoop. That is what taking advantage of a player's weaknesses should be, not committing a foul 70 feet away from the ball.

Simple fix: An off the ball foul when a team is in the bonus results in 1 free throw and the ball. In the long run bad FT shooters will still cost their teams in close games and they will be a less viable option in the clutch. Who was the one taking the big shots at the end of games on the three peat lakers? Kobe. Because if Shaq got it fouling him instead of defending was a viable option, can't do that against Kobe. I've felt this way long before I even know who Drummond was.

Totally agree. I'm completely fine with fouling to stop a dunk. It's part of a basketball play and the player with the ball at least has a chance to still make the dunk. Dre doesn't even have the ball when he is getting fouled.

I think the solution to appeasing both sides is to allow it, but just put a limit on it. Give each team a few intentional fouls per game, but once they have used them up, that is it, and if they do it again it it's a tech for every one after . That way the pro-foul crowd still has it as part of the game, but those against it only have to deal with it a few times per game at most. That seems like the happy medium.

[Todd3]

As Milsap and KD said earlier this week, make your dang FTs, then you wouldn't have to worry about getting pulled.

Dre misses FTs because he overthinks them and never had to worry about that part of fundamentals. These kids are groomed to just play inside the post and body up the opponents from the earliest of ages. Why do you think they practically coast in High School only using their physical gifts? They're never taught to practice night in and out of pure fundamentals like having tight handles and shooting early on.

It's the average life of an everyday aspiring bigman. Too many bad grade school coaches out there instilling these bad habits early on.

I don't think that is the case here. He practices them as much as possible, but when your are that big it's physically harder. It's like you or I trying to make them with a tennis ball (not that extreme but you get the point). It is easy for good shooters to say just make your FTs, but it is no easier for him than if he told them to just go get 20 rebounds. Every player has different strengths and weaknesses and it's unfair that there's a rule that exploits some players weakness but not others. If you are allowed to intentionally make your opponent do what they aren't good at, why stop at FTs? Drummond should be allowed to foul PGs and make them have to out-rebound him for possession lol. Sounds silly but making someone who doesn't even have the ball intentionally shoot FTs is just as silly. The point of FTs is supposed to be to compensate a shooter for getting fouled while shooting. If a guy doesn't have the ball what is he shooting FTs for, it makes no sense. Stupid rule and I suspect it will be changed by the time Dre is in his prime.

I don't agree with the physical argument. There had been taller players than him who were just as physically gifted but still hit over 50-60% in their careers. Hakeem did. Kevin Durant (who is over 6'10) does, and Dirk Nowitzki (who is over 7") are great FT shooters. Hell, Yao was a great FT shooter for someone as giant as him too.

For Dre, it just wasn't instilled in him early on like other players were, so he's basically playing catch up with trying to develop something that wasn't a core skill growing up. That's all I wanted to point out.

How do you know it wasn't instilled in him early though? I don't know you might be right, but I haven't heard anything about that either way. From what I understand he played a lot of guard growing up, which would seem to indicate he would have been practicing FTs a lot early. Some bigs are great at it when young, but then get a growth spurt and can't make them anymore.

Here is a good video about Wilt's FTs with Tommy Heinsohn. He says its not just about their size, but their strength that makes it more difficult. Which makes sense and why guys like Durant and Dirk can still make them at the same height. He said Wilt once made 20-25 from halfcourt but couldn't make a FT. It's the same with Dre. He makes them from halfcourt too with more ease than a FT. Maybe it's a strength thing and he is too strong to get the proper touch from that close.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM[/youtube]

[Redeemed]

You guys are delusional. Drummond is avg 23 points, 16 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 assists on 54% FG and 44% FT the last 3 games, all vs East contenders on the road with a 2-1 record (including 30-20 & 25-10 games). He was 1 of 6 finalists for player of the week last week, along with Lebron, George, Carmelo, Milsap, Derozon, and Jackson.

I feel like I'm in bizarro world reading this forum sometimes.

Drummond is physically gifted enough to get numbers even if he isn't engaged, so I'm not talking about his stats. He's a three hundred pound big with the agility of a small forward which gives him the edge in the majority of his match-ups. I'm talking posture, demeanor, energy, and focus. He was locked in earlier during our 5-1 start and even during that initial West road trip (except for the Sacramento game). Right now, as I watch him play he has this blank going through the motions posture. It just has me a bit concerned.

Dre looks like a sensitive dude who gets down on himself if his shots aren't falling or calls are going against him. I think maybe he's bit in his own head.

I still don't understand why it matters how he looks if the end result is the same? If you aren't talking about stats what are you talking about? Because he is winning the same.

He was dominating during the first 5-1 and he has been dominating during the last 5-2.

If you need him to be a cheerleader in addition to dominating and winning in order to be satisfied, aren't you the one being sensitive here?

Fans today hate on players who post big numbers but don't win, and then hate on them if they win but their numbers aren't good enough. Now there seems to be a 3rd criteria - you have to win with great stats and look excited while doing it lol.

All I care about is if a player does his job and wins. It's a long season. Players aren't going to have the same over-animated excitement of opening week in December.

I also think it's nonsense to suggest he is just getting by off athleticism. You don't avg 23 & 16 w/o skill, effort, energy, focus, determination etc.

Let's take a step back for a second. I expressed my concerns because I'm a fan of the player (I want him to succeed) and a LONG time fan of the team (I want them/us to succeed). This has been a breakthrough year for Dre, we've seen him put up some historic numbers and change the course of games to a great extent. We can agree on that.

I hope we can also agree that there is room for growth, not only skill wise, but also in terms of intangibles. For me to say that I have noticed him getting down on himself at certain points and seeing that translate into a posture that makes me concerned, is to say that I am concerned. I am concerned about him not doing as well as he can. I am not hating on him.

Also, I did not say that Dre is just getting by off athleticism. I said Dre's natural gifts give him a decided advantage over most bigs in the league. I recognize that he has worked a great deal on his hook and drop step moves. So I have only been concerned about him trending toward a level of frustration that shows up in inconsistent energy.

That being said, Dre is well on his way to being the most dominating big in the league. I appreciated the discussion Todd!

Detroit vs. Err'body!!!

[DBC10]

I don't think that is the case here. He practices them as much as possible, but when your are that big it's physically harder. It's like you or I trying to make them with a tennis ball (not that extreme but you get the point). It is easy for good shooters to say just make your FTs, but it is no easier for him than if he told them to just go get 20 rebounds. Every player has different strengths and weaknesses and it's unfair that there's a rule that exploits some players weakness but not others. If you are allowed to intentionally make your opponent do what they aren't good at, why stop at FTs? Drummond should be allowed to foul PGs and make them have to out-rebound him for possession lol. Sounds silly but making someone who doesn't even have the ball intentionally shoot FTs is just as silly. The point of FTs is supposed to be to compensate a shooter for getting fouled while shooting. If a guy doesn't have the ball what is he shooting FTs for, it makes no sense. Stupid rule and I suspect it will be changed by the time Dre is in his prime.

I don't agree with the physical argument. There had been taller players than him who were just as physically gifted but still hit over 50-60% in their careers. Hakeem did. Kevin Durant (who is over 6'10) does, and Dirk Nowitzki (who is over 7") are great FT shooters. Hell, Yao was a great FT shooter for someone as giant as him too.

For Dre, it just wasn't instilled in him early on like other players were, so he's basically playing catch up with trying to develop something that wasn't a core skill growing up. That's all I wanted to point out.

How do you know it wasn't instilled in him early though? I don't know you might be right, but I haven't heard anything about that either way. From what I understand he played a lot of guard growing up, which would seem to indicate he would have been practicing FTs a lot early. Some bigs are great at it when young, but then get a growth spurt and can't make them anymore.

Here is a good video about Wilt's FTs with Tommy Heinsohn. He says its not just about their size, but their strength that makes it more difficult. Which makes sense and why guys like Durant and Dirk can still make them at the same height. He said Wilt once made 20-25 from halfcourt but couldn't make a FT. It's the same with Dre. He makes them from halfcourt too with more ease than a FT. Maybe it's a strength thing and he is too strong to get the proper touch from that close.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM[/youtube]

That's why I mentioned Yao and Dirk which nullifies the height/hand size = bad FT %. Also I don't think strength is a factor either, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and even Nate Thurmond shot well above 50-60% and they look stronger with wider shoulders than Dre ever was. It's just Dre's era of not instilling pure fundamentals that has him on the wrong side of history when it comes to FT success with bigmen. Those older era of bigmen had much more better understanding of fundamentals since AAU wasn't nearly as prominent as it is today.

Again, that's all I wanted to point out, the state of gradeschool coaching is atrocious when it comes to actually implementing fundamentals that actually produce success for players that are NBA bound, rather than relying on pure athleticism.

[Todd3]

Drummond is physically gifted enough to get numbers even if he isn't engaged, so I'm not talking about his stats. He's a three hundred pound big with the agility of a small forward which gives him the edge in the majority of his match-ups. I'm talking posture, demeanor, energy, and focus. He was locked in earlier during our 5-1 start and even during that initial West road trip (except for the Sacramento game). Right now, as I watch him play he has this blank going through the motions posture. It just has me a bit concerned.

Dre looks like a sensitive dude who gets down on himself if his shots aren't falling or calls are going against him. I think maybe he's bit in his own head.

I still don't understand why it matters how he looks if the end result is the same? If you aren't talking about stats what are you talking about? Because he is winning the same.

He was dominating during the first 5-1 and he has been dominating during the last 5-2.

If you need him to be a cheerleader in addition to dominating and winning in order to be satisfied, aren't you the one being sensitive here?

Fans today hate on players who post big numbers but don't win, and then hate on them if they win but their numbers aren't good enough. Now there seems to be a 3rd criteria - you have to win with great stats and look excited while doing it lol.

All I care about is if a player does his job and wins. It's a long season. Players aren't going to have the same over-animated excitement of opening week in December.

I also think it's nonsense to suggest he is just getting by off athleticism. You don't avg 23 & 16 w/o skill, effort, energy, focus, determination etc.

Let's take a step back for a second. I expressed my concerns because I'm a fan of the player (I want him to succeed) and a LONG time fan of the team (I want them/us to succeed). This has been a breakthrough year for Dre, we've seen him put up some historic numbers and change the course of games to a great extent. We can agree on that.

I hope we can also agree that there is room for growth, not only skill wise, but also in terms of intangibles. For me to say that I have noticed him getting down on himself at certain points and seeing that translate into a posture that makes me concerned, is to say that I am concerned. I am concerned about him not doing as well as he can. I am not hating on him.

Also, I did not say that Dre is just getting by off athleticism. I said Dre's natural gifts give him a decided advantage over most bigs in the league. I recognize that he has worked a great deal on his hook and drop step moves. So I have only been concerned about him trending toward a level of frustration that shows up in inconsistent energy.

That being said, Dre is well on his way to being the most dominating big in the league. I appreciated the discussion Todd!

Detroit vs. Err'body!!!

no prob, Merry Christmas

[Todd3]

I don't agree with the physical argument. There had been taller players than him who were just as physically gifted but still hit over 50-60% in their careers. Hakeem did. Kevin Durant (who is over 6'10) does, and Dirk Nowitzki (who is over 7") are great FT shooters. Hell, Yao was a great FT shooter for someone as giant as him too.

For Dre, it just wasn't instilled in him early on like other players were, so he's basically playing catch up with trying to develop something that wasn't a core skill growing up. That's all I wanted to point out.

How do you know it wasn't instilled in him early though? I don't know you might be right, but I haven't heard anything about that either way. From what I understand he played a lot of guard growing up, which would seem to indicate he would have been practicing FTs a lot early. Some bigs are great at it when young, but then get a growth spurt and can't make them anymore.

Here is a good video about Wilt's FTs with Tommy Heinsohn. He says its not just about their size, but their strength that makes it more difficult. Which makes sense and why guys like Durant and Dirk can still make them at the same height. He said Wilt once made 20-25 from halfcourt but couldn't make a FT. It's the same with Dre. He makes them from halfcourt too with more ease than a FT. Maybe it's a strength thing and he is too strong to get the proper touch from that close.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM[/youtube]

That's why I mentioned Yao and Dirk which nullifies the height/hand size = bad FT %. Also I don't think strength is a factor either, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and even Nate Thurmond shot well above 50-60% and they look stronger with wider shoulders than Dre ever was. It's just Dre's era of not instilling pure fundamentals that has him on the wrong side of history when it comes to FT success with bigmen. Those older era of bigmen had much more better understanding of fundamentals since AAU wasn't nearly as prominent as it is today.

Again, that's all I wanted to point out, the state of gradeschool coaching is atrocious when it comes to actually implementing fundamentals that actually produce success for players that are NBA bound, rather than relying on pure athleticism.

I think there is a physical aspect to it, but it affects every big different I guess. Wilt and Russell grew up before AAU and couldn't make them either, so there are arguments for both sides. It's possible Drummond just doesn't have that range no matter how much he practices. He scores all his points in the paint, so it probably shouldn't a big surprise that he isn't good at FTs. The ones who aren't good Shaq, Howard, Jordan, Dre all have that in common - none have a midrange game - and the ones you mentioned were all consistent midrange shooters, so it might be as simple as that. Some bigs just don't have that range.

[DBC10]

How do you know it wasn't instilled in him early though? I don't know you might be right, but I haven't heard anything about that either way. From what I understand he played a lot of guard growing up, which would seem to indicate he would have been practicing FTs a lot early. Some bigs are great at it when young, but then get a growth spurt and can't make them anymore.

Here is a good video about Wilt's FTs with Tommy Heinsohn. He says its not just about their size, but their strength that makes it more difficult. Which makes sense and why guys like Durant and Dirk can still make them at the same height. He said Wilt once made 20-25 from halfcourt but couldn't make a FT. It's the same with Dre. He makes them from halfcourt too with more ease than a FT. Maybe it's a strength thing and he is too strong to get the proper touch from that close.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM[/youtube]

That's why I mentioned Yao and Dirk which nullifies the height/hand size = bad FT %. Also I don't think strength is a factor either, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and even Nate Thurmond shot well above 50-60% and they look stronger with wider shoulders than Dre ever was. It's just Dre's era of not instilling pure fundamentals that has him on the wrong side of history when it comes to FT success with bigmen. Those older era of bigmen had much more better understanding of fundamentals since AAU wasn't nearly as prominent as it is today.

Again, that's all I wanted to point out, the state of gradeschool coaching is atrocious when it comes to actually implementing fundamentals that actually produce success for players that are NBA bound, rather than relying on pure athleticism.

I think there is a physical aspect to it, but it affects every big different I guess. Wilt and Russell grew up before AAU and couldn't make them either, so there are arguments for both sides. It's possible Drummond just doesn't have that range no matter how much he practices. He scores all his points in the paint, so it probably shouldn't a big surprise that he isn't good at FTs. The ones who aren't good Shaq, Howard, Jordan, Dre all have that in common - none have a midrange game - and the ones you mentioned were all consistent midrange shooters, so it might be as simple as that. Some bigs just don't have that range.

Wilt was a track and a high jump star, he literally just picked up basketball because he was that physically dominant though, I doubt coaches ever gave him so much crap about fundamentals when he dominated with his physical gifts alone from the get go. Coaches tend to overlook those things when you're a man among boys even in the pros. He basically beasted and coasted through the NBA like a monster until he realized he needed to win some rings. More or less with Russell too.

Watching bigs like Gasol brothers, Vucevic, and Porzingis makes me realize that virtually any player is capable of having some sort of range and to a lesser extent making FTs above 50%. Dre just wasn't trained right from the beginning and that's not his fault, since he probably was the biggest kid in his AAU class and forced to play center at 6'3 or whatever height and kept growing. While others had that Euro fundamental training and were taught from an early age as a guard like how Anthony Davis ran point before his growth spurt.

[Todd3]

That's why I mentioned Yao and Dirk which nullifies the height/hand size = bad FT %. Also I don't think strength is a factor either, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and even Nate Thurmond shot well above 50-60% and they look stronger with wider shoulders than Dre ever was. It's just Dre's era of not instilling pure fundamentals that has him on the wrong side of history when it comes to FT success with bigmen. Those older era of bigmen had much more better understanding of fundamentals since AAU wasn't nearly as prominent as it is today.

Again, that's all I wanted to point out, the state of gradeschool coaching is atrocious when it comes to actually implementing fundamentals that actually produce success for players that are NBA bound, rather than relying on pure athleticism.

I think there is a physical aspect to it, but it affects every big different I guess. Wilt and Russell grew up before AAU and couldn't make them either, so there are arguments for both sides. It's possible Drummond just doesn't have that range no matter how much he practices. He scores all his points in the paint, so it probably shouldn't a big surprise that he isn't good at FTs. The ones who aren't good Shaq, Howard, Jordan, Dre all have that in common - none have a midrange game - and the ones you mentioned were all consistent midrange shooters, so it might be as simple as that. Some bigs just don't have that range.

Wilt was a track and a high jump star, he literally just picked up basketball because he was that physically dominant though, I doubt coaches ever gave him so much crap about fundamentals when he dominated with his physical gifts alone from the get go. Coaches tend to overlook those things when you're a man among boys even in the pros. He basically beasted and coasted through the NBA like a monster until he realized he needed to win some rings. More or less with Russell too.

Watching bigs like Gasol brothers, Vucevic, and Porzingis makes me realize that virtually any player is capable of having some sort of range and to a lesser extent making FTs above 50%. Dre just wasn't trained right from the beginning and that's not his fault, since he probably was the biggest kid in his AAU class and forced to play center at 6'3 or whatever height and kept growing. While others had that Euro fundamental training and were taught from an early age as a guard like how Anthony Davis ran point before his growth spurt.

Maybe, but the other side of that is those Euro's being developed like guards are often not equipped to play in the paint like a big man should. That is where the US gets it right. They teach their bigs to play like bigs. The downside might be poor FTs but in the NBA dominating the paint is more important. It's worth noting that the poor FT shooters who dominated the paint (Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Big Ben) won 18 championships, while the good FT shooters like Ewing, Malone, Dirk, Gasol won only 3.

[StunnaStan]

Drummond on some real bs. Anyone on here whos played ball, should know damn well Drummond ain't working hard enough or rather focusing enough on his fts. If i was his shooting coach, my approach would be for Drummond to try different forms or something. Idfk lol

[Blkbrd671]

Idfk

exactly

there's only so many hours in a day, and dre's made improvements else where. A player can realistically only develop so much in a certain amount of time. We hired the best brand name shooting coach that was on the market, we are still winning games despite his ft's, and he's still young.

You also of course realize, FACTUALLY, chances of him improving to above 60% is highly unlikely when you look at history of sub 50% shooters over the HISTORY of NBA. Your theory would dictate that no poor ft shooting big man worked on his FT's, which simply isn't true. Dre probably doesn't want to continue to be pulled, give him a offseason with hoopla. There's a slim chance dre becomes a decent ft shooter because his forms there, however, he's probably never going to become better than 50%.

[DBC10]

Honestly don't think Dre will ever crack 50% in a season for a while, if ever.

He'd have to make a HUGE stride in order for him to be even anywhere near that.