12/26/2015 Miami @ Orlando, 7 PM

[Zasterror]

Wade easily is playing like one of the best clutch players/finishers this season so far. Hero-ball or not, that is very important going forward to the season.

[TroubleS0me]

good win thought it was over after the 3qtr & we would have lost a game like this last season
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfIbXx4TIQo[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eaci-6B8Vgs[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_wx2cvjAl4[/youtube]

[Valkyrie]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8usJGgSA5g&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

didnt have the best seats but still saw it pretty clearly wade put on a show

[DWadeno3]

The point is that he did not take up all the shot attempts. We actually had 2 players who attempted significantly more shots than Wade. And Green just 2 shots away from tying Wade. This ultimately means that the ball moved, it didn't stick, we didn't opt for iso's for one individual player and we played as a team and look better when playing so. And look at the results. THis is how you play the game of basketball, this is how we should play moving forward.

1) The amount of shot attempts, as I already mentioned, is lower because he attempted 10 free throws, which could be an additional five FG attempts.

2) We mostly ran pick and rolls, something we ran when the hero ball stuff was being brought up. Just like in previous times, Wade shot the ball when he felt he had a good rhythm shot and he kicked it when he deemed that the better option. Not much changed in terms of late game execution except for Wade making his shots.

3) The ball moved similarly to the way it did before. This time, however, Wade, Dragic and Bosh all had good shooting nights, as well as the entire team. That's really the key difference tonight. If Wade misses a few of those late game shots or if we shoot to our averages from downtown, we have the same output, the same outcome and the same complaints as we did after the Detroit game.

This really shows that our execution, while leaving room for improvement, hasn't been as bad as it was made to be and that we haven't ran as many iso's, especially for Wade, as it was claimed to be. It was just a matter of guys making (good) shots.

Even if you count the shot attempts that got him to the freethrow line it still makes no difference to your argument seeing as there were still 2 other players with more shot attempts - THAT is the difference here and THAT is my point.

I debunked some guys theory on when Wade shot 15+ we win and when he shot below we lose the other day, you should look that up as reference to our hero ball. Wade by far has attempted the most shots on this squad. How much better of a team could we potentially be if we played like tonight where other players had the opportunity to have the ball in there hands and we actually play more as a team than a team that opts for isolations. In a season where we are trying to build chemistry and a team that has acquired more talent this is how we should play moving forward.

Fact is it was players such as Dragic, who was solid all throughout this game, that kept us alive.......while Wade was non existent for most of it. Bosh added in his input and Green w/ some very timely shots that helped us tremendously. See that is more team effort than it is when Wade tries to bail us out. Wade simply finished at crunch time but it was 3 of his team mates that kept us afloat. That is a team win!

Aside of the fact that you ignored most of my post,it is surprising that for all your talk of Wade isolating so much, it is actually Bosh who isolates the most on our team percentage wise, at least according to nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time&dir=1

The main difference last night was Bosh and most importantly Dragic finally making most of their open shots. They had more confidence, thus attempted more shots and our offense looked better. Execution wise, not a lot changed.

[3ballbomber]

1) The amount of shot attempts, as I already mentioned, is lower because he attempted 10 free throws, which could be an additional five FG attempts.

2) We mostly ran pick and rolls, something we ran when the hero ball stuff was being brought up. Just like in previous times, Wade shot the ball when he felt he had a good rhythm shot and he kicked it when he deemed that the better option. Not much changed in terms of late game execution except for Wade making his shots.

3) The ball moved similarly to the way it did before. This time, however, Wade, Dragic and Bosh all had good shooting nights, as well as the entire team. That's really the key difference tonight. If Wade misses a few of those late game shots or if we shoot to our averages from downtown, we have the same output, the same outcome and the same complaints as we did after the Detroit game.

This really shows that our execution, while leaving room for improvement, hasn't been as bad as it was made to be and that we haven't ran as many iso's, especially for Wade, as it was claimed to be. It was just a matter of guys making (good) shots.

Even if you count the shot attempts that got him to the freethrow line it still makes no difference to your argument seeing as there were still 2 other players with more shot attempts - THAT is the difference here and THAT is my point.

I debunked some guys theory on when Wade shot 15+ we win and when he shot below we lose the other day, you should look that up as reference to our hero ball. Wade by far has attempted the most shots on this squad. How much better of a team could we potentially be if we played like tonight where other players had the opportunity to have the ball in there hands and we actually play more as a team than a team that opts for isolations. In a season where we are trying to build chemistry and a team that has acquired more talent this is how we should play moving forward.

Fact is it was players such as Dragic, who was solid all throughout this game, that kept us alive.......while Wade was non existent for most of it. Bosh added in his input and Green w/ some very timely shots that helped us tremendously. See that is more team effort than it is when Wade tries to bail us out. Wade simply finished at crunch time but it was 3 of his team mates that kept us afloat. That is a team win!

Aside of the fact that you ignored most of my post,it is surprising that for all your talk of Wade isolating so much, it is actually Bosh who isolates the most on our team percentage wise, at least according to nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time&dir=1

The main difference last night was Bosh and most importantly Dragic finally making most of their open shots. They had more confidence, thus attempted more shots and our offense looked better. Execution wise, not a lot changed.

I did not reply to your other arguments because i disagree with your main point....so why would i refute your justifications for the main point we are debating!

I'm not sure what funky stat you linked but it also has some guys named Bobby Portis form Chicago, Jarrell Martin from Memphis, Walter Tavares from ATL etc. etc. Who in the fug are those guys? If this stat is significant and a bunch of no namers are iso'ing more than team's star players then they have far more worse issues than isolations I assume those players listed make more isolation plays per possession. Wich means they may not get the ball as much as other players on their team but when they do they tend to iso. That does not exactly support your argument.

All that matters is in 28 games (did not count the small amount of games where both Bosh & Wade had equal attempts) Wade attempted more shots than Bosh in 22 out of 28 games. Bosh only had 6 games where he attempted more shots than Wade That is alarming for so many reasons. That means that Wade IS taking up a majority of shots away from everybody else, including our most paid player.

If we are to be legit contenders the ball must be shared. We have players capable but if one player has attempted by far the majority of the shots (and often times the discrepancy between Wade's shot attempts is significant compared to all other players) then how exactly are we going to properly acclimate them not only into our team but our system. It will also affect confidence, trust, rhythm and consistency. This is why it is a big problem and for those who think it's cool and this continus then by playoffs, wether this season or the following, and you're wondering why we aren't doing well or are eliminated early you'll know why.

[DWadeno3]

Even if you count the shot attempts that got him to the freethrow line it still makes no difference to your argument seeing as there were still 2 other players with more shot attempts - THAT is the difference here and THAT is my point.

I debunked some guys theory on when Wade shot 15+ we win and when he shot below we lose the other day, you should look that up as reference to our hero ball. Wade by far has attempted the most shots on this squad. How much better of a team could we potentially be if we played like tonight where other players had the opportunity to have the ball in there hands and we actually play more as a team than a team that opts for isolations. In a season where we are trying to build chemistry and a team that has acquired more talent this is how we should play moving forward.

Fact is it was players such as Dragic, who was solid all throughout this game, that kept us alive.......while Wade was non existent for most of it. Bosh added in his input and Green w/ some very timely shots that helped us tremendously. See that is more team effort than it is when Wade tries to bail us out. Wade simply finished at crunch time but it was 3 of his team mates that kept us afloat. That is a team win!

Aside of the fact that you ignored most of my post,it is surprising that for all your talk of Wade isolating so much, it is actually Bosh who isolates the most on our team percentage wise, at least according to nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time&dir=1

The main difference last night was Bosh and most importantly Dragic finally making most of their open shots. They had more confidence, thus attempted more shots and our offense looked better. Execution wise, not a lot changed.

I did not reply to your other arguments because i disagree with your main point....so why would i refute your justifications for the main point we are debating!

I'm not sure what funky stat you linked but it also has some guys named Bobby Portis form Chicago, Jarrell Martin from Memphis, Walter Tavares from ATL etc. etc. Who in the fug are those guys? If this stat is significant and a bunch of no namers are iso'ing more than team's star players then they have far more worse issues than isolations I assume those players listed make more isolation plays per possession. Wich means they may not get the ball as much as other players on their team but when they do they tend to iso. That does not exactly support your argument.

All that matters is in 28 games (did not count the small amount of games where both Bosh & Wade had equal attempts) Wade attempted more shots than Bosh in 22 out of 28 games. Bosh only had 6 games where he attempted more shots than Wade That is alarming for so many reasons. That means that Wade IS taking up a majority of shots away from everybody else, including our most paid player.

If we are to be legit contenders the ball must be shared. We have players capable but if one player has attempted by far the majority of the shots (and often times the discrepancy between Wade's shot attempts is significant compared to all other players) then how exactly are we going to properly acclimate them not only into our team but our system. It will also affect confidence, trust, rhythm and consistency. This is why it is a big problem and for those who think it's cool and this continus then by playoffs, wether this season or the following, and you're wondering why we aren't doing well or are eliminated early you'll know why.

Unfortunately my computer crashed shortly before I was done with my full reply. Since RealGM doesn't save them, it's obviously gone, so I'm just gonna say one thing: You're completely misinterpreting the isolation statistic by using guys who have played less than five games, in Portis' case less than ten games, and are the usual statistic anomalies. As you can see, LeBron James, James Harden and Carmelo Anthony are all very high on that list. Those are guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and simply isolate a lot. Wade is not even on that list. Hence your complaint of him isolating too much is simply false.

As for the rest: We have seven guys per 36 (who have played more than 100 minutes) that average more than 10 shots per game. In comparison: The Spurs have nine, the Cavs have six and the Hawks have eight if you want to include Splitter at 9.9. If two offensive liabilities (scoring wise) such as Winslow and McRoberts wouldn't play that many minutes for us, our figure could easily be higher as well.

The sole reason people complain about Wade is because he's been inefficient by his standards (with Bosh not being all that more efficient). If he returns to his usual 48-50% average, those complaints will slowly fade out.

[3ballbomber]

Spoiler:

Aside of the fact that you ignored most of my post,it is surprising that for all your talk of Wade isolating so much, it is actually Bosh who isolates the most on our team percentage wise, at least according to nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time&dir=1

The main difference last night was Bosh and most importantly Dragic finally making most of their open shots. They had more confidence, thus attempted more shots and our offense looked better. Execution wise, not a lot changed.

I did not reply to your other arguments because i disagree with your main point....so why would i refute your justifications for the main point we are debating!

I'm not sure what funky stat you linked but it also has some guys named Bobby Portis form Chicago, Jarrell Martin from Memphis, Walter Tavares from ATL etc. etc. Who in the fug are those guys? If this stat is significant and a bunch of no namers are iso'ing more than team's star players then they have far more worse issues than isolations I assume those players listed make more isolation plays per possession. Wich means they may not get the ball as much as other players on their team but when they do they tend to iso. That does not exactly support your argument.

All that matters is in 28 games (did not count the small amount of games where both Bosh & Wade had equal attempts) Wade attempted more shots than Bosh in 22 out of 28 games. Bosh only had 6 games where he attempted more shots than Wade That is alarming for so many reasons. That means that Wade IS taking up a majority of shots away from everybody else, including our most paid player.

If we are to be legit contenders the ball must be shared. We have players capable but if one player has attempted by far the majority of the shots (and often times the discrepancy between Wade's shot attempts is significant compared to all other players) then how exactly are we going to properly acclimate them not only into our team but our system. It will also affect confidence, trust, rhythm and consistency. This is why it is a big problem and for those who think it's cool and this continus then by playoffs, wether this season or the following, and you're wondering why we aren't doing well or are eliminated early you'll know why.

Unfortunately my computer crashed shortly before I was done with my full reply. Since RealGM doesn't save them, it's obviously gone, so I'm just gonna say one thing: You're completely misinterpreting the isolation statistic by using guys who have played less than five games, in Portis' case less than ten games, and are the usual statistic anomalies. As you can see, LeBron James, James Harden and Carmelo Anthony are all very high on that list. Those are guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and simply isolate a lot. Wade is not even on that list. Hence your complaint of him isolating too much is simply false.

As for the rest: We have seven guys per 36 (who have played more than 100 minutes) that average more than 10 shots per game. In comparison: The Spurs have nine, the Cavs have six and the Hawks have eight if you want to include Splitter at 9.9. If two offensive liabilities (scoring wise) such as Winslow and McRoberts wouldn't play that many minutes for us, our figure could easily be higher as well.

The sole reason people complain about Wade is because he's been inefficient by his standards (with Bosh not being all that more efficient). If he returns to his usual 48-50% average, those complaints will slowly fade out.

But we are not counting amount of iso's......we aren't talking about iso's when we're talking about Wade. We are talking about 'Hero-Ball' wich isn't only based on iso's but also taking on 2-3-4 players on possessions. That is the problem w/ posting that link to support your argument.

And of course nobody would complain if Wade was actually more efficient - the primary reason why it has become an issue is because spite of him being inefficient he is still taking up majority of shot attempts and going from the stats i posted on another thread we are not a good team with him taking 15+ shots so far this season. But hey, by all means....let Wade go nuts if he is draining most of those shot attempts and saving us on a nightly basis.....but fact is he is not, plus it has been hurting us more than it has helped.

[STA 13]

Aside of the fact that you ignored most of my post,it is surprising that for all your talk of Wade isolating so much, it is actually Bosh who isolates the most on our team percentage wise, at least according to nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time&dir=1

The main difference last night was Bosh and most importantly Dragic finally making most of their open shots. They had more confidence, thus attempted more shots and our offense looked better. Execution wise, not a lot changed.

I did not reply to your other arguments because i disagree with your main point....so why would i refute your justifications for the main point we are debating!

I'm not sure what funky stat you linked but it also has some guys named Bobby Portis form Chicago, Jarrell Martin from Memphis, Walter Tavares from ATL etc. etc. Who in the fug are those guys? If this stat is significant and a bunch of no namers are iso'ing more than team's star players then they have far more worse issues than isolations I assume those players listed make more isolation plays per possession. Wich means they may not get the ball as much as other players on their team but when they do they tend to iso. That does not exactly support your argument.

All that matters is in 28 games (did not count the small amount of games where both Bosh & Wade had equal attempts) Wade attempted more shots than Bosh in 22 out of 28 games. Bosh only had 6 games where he attempted more shots than Wade That is alarming for so many reasons. That means that Wade IS taking up a majority of shots away from everybody else, including our most paid player.

If we are to be legit contenders the ball must be shared. We have players capable but if one player has attempted by far the majority of the shots (and often times the discrepancy between Wade's shot attempts is significant compared to all other players) then how exactly are we going to properly acclimate them not only into our team but our system. It will also affect confidence, trust, rhythm and consistency. This is why it is a big problem and for those who think it's cool and this continus then by playoffs, wether this season or the following, and you're wondering why we aren't doing well or are eliminated early you'll know why.

Unfortunately my computer crashed shortly before I was done with my full reply. Since RealGM doesn't save them, it's obviously gone, so I'm just gonna say one thing: You're completely misinterpreting the isolation statistic by using guys who have played less than five games, in Portis' case less than ten games, and are the usual statistic anomalies. As you can see, LeBron James, James Harden and Carmelo Anthony are all very high on that list. Those are guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and simply isolate a lot. Wade is not even on that list. Hence your complaint of him isolating too much is simply false.

As for the rest: We have seven guys per 36 (who have played more than 100 minutes) that average more than 10 shots per game. In comparison: The Spurs have nine, the Cavs have six and the Hawks have eight if you want to include Splitter at 9.9. If two offensive liabilities (scoring wise) such as Winslow and McRoberts wouldn't play that many minutes for us, our figure could easily be higher as well.

The sole reason people complain about Wade is because he's been inefficient by his standards (with Bosh not being all that more efficient). If he returns to his usual 48-50% average, those complaints will slowly fade out.

I don't see percent of Isos as being more relevant than total Isos. If one guy gets 5 possessions a game with two Isos he has an iso % of 40%. If the other guys gets 40 possessions a per game with 12 Isos he has an iso % of 30%. Which player would you say is more involved?

Also based in that chart Bosh gets 1.02 points per Iso posession versus Wade at 0.64. That is a huge difference. If anything based on that alone Wade should take less Isos.

As to the comments that Bosh has not been much more efficient, Bosh has a very good TS% of 57.5 versus Wade's below average of 51.1%. Again, big difference.

Part of this is on Bosh though. He just needs to shoot more which he has been over the past two weeks

[DWadeno3]

I did not reply to your other arguments because i disagree with your main point....so why would i refute your justifications for the main point we are debating!

I'm not sure what funky stat you linked but it also has some guys named Bobby Portis form Chicago, Jarrell Martin from Memphis, Walter Tavares from ATL etc. etc. Who in the fug are those guys? If this stat is significant and a bunch of no namers are iso'ing more than team's star players then they have far more worse issues than isolations I assume those players listed make more isolation plays per possession. Wich means they may not get the ball as much as other players on their team but when they do they tend to iso. That does not exactly support your argument.

All that matters is in 28 games (did not count the small amount of games where both Bosh & Wade had equal attempts) Wade attempted more shots than Bosh in 22 out of 28 games. Bosh only had 6 games where he attempted more shots than Wade That is alarming for so many reasons. That means that Wade IS taking up a majority of shots away from everybody else, including our most paid player.

If we are to be legit contenders the ball must be shared. We have players capable but if one player has attempted by far the majority of the shots (and often times the discrepancy between Wade's shot attempts is significant compared to all other players) then how exactly are we going to properly acclimate them not only into our team but our system. It will also affect confidence, trust, rhythm and consistency. This is why it is a big problem and for those who think it's cool and this continus then by playoffs, wether this season or the following, and you're wondering why we aren't doing well or are eliminated early you'll know why.

Unfortunately my computer crashed shortly before I was done with my full reply. Since RealGM doesn't save them, it's obviously gone, so I'm just gonna say one thing: You're completely misinterpreting the isolation statistic by using guys who have played less than five games, in Portis' case less than ten games, and are the usual statistic anomalies. As you can see, LeBron James, James Harden and Carmelo Anthony are all very high on that list. Those are guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and simply isolate a lot. Wade is not even on that list. Hence your complaint of him isolating too much is simply false.

As for the rest: We have seven guys per 36 (who have played more than 100 minutes) that average more than 10 shots per game. In comparison: The Spurs have nine, the Cavs have six and the Hawks have eight if you want to include Splitter at 9.9. If two offensive liabilities (scoring wise) such as Winslow and McRoberts wouldn't play that many minutes for us, our figure could easily be higher as well.

The sole reason people complain about Wade is because he's been inefficient by his standards (with Bosh not being all that more efficient). If he returns to his usual 48-50% average, those complaints will slowly fade out.

I don't see percent of Isos as being more relevant than total Isos. If one guy gets 5 possessions a game with two Isos he has an iso % of 40%. If the other guys gets 40 possessions a per game with 12 Isos he has an iso % of 30%. Which player would you say is more involved?

Also based in that chart Bosh gets 1.02 points per Iso posession versus Wade at 0.64. That is a huge difference. If anything based on that alone Wade should take less Isos.

As to the comments that Bosh has not been much more efficient, Bosh has a very good TS% of 57.5 versus Wade's below average of 51.1%. Again, big difference.

Part of this is on Bosh though. He just needs to shoot more which he has been over the past two weeks

The discussion was Wade allegedly isolating too much, which he clearly doesn't. I never debated that he should isolate more or Bosh should isolate less. And to point out that Wade isolates too much, the percentage is a good fit because it shows compared to the rest of the league, he simply doesn't isolate that much.

Bosh's TS% is higher due to his three-point shooting. At the end of the day, they both produce a similar amount of points on a similar FG%. In Bosh's case, I question whether he'd still have such a high TS% if he shot the ball significantly more. Particularly his three point shooting is very inconsistent, so I don't want him chucking up a high amount of them.

At the end of the day, our shot distribution isn't much of a problem. It is simply guys not making shots they usually make at a good clip. I see us get plenty of good shots and just plain miss them. As we've seen against Orlando, our offense is good when that changes.

[Shewasfly]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

[RexBoyWonder]

Unfortunately my computer crashed shortly before I was done with my full reply. Since RealGM doesn't save them, it's obviously gone, so I'm just gonna say one thing: You're completely misinterpreting the isolation statistic by using guys who have played less than five games, in Portis' case less than ten games, and are the usual statistic anomalies. As you can see, LeBron James, James Harden and Carmelo Anthony are all very high on that list. Those are guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and simply isolate a lot. Wade is not even on that list. Hence your complaint of him isolating too much is simply false.

As for the rest: We have seven guys per 36 (who have played more than 100 minutes) that average more than 10 shots per game. In comparison: The Spurs have nine, the Cavs have six and the Hawks have eight if you want to include Splitter at 9.9. If two offensive liabilities (scoring wise) such as Winslow and McRoberts wouldn't play that many minutes for us, our figure could easily be higher as well.

The sole reason people complain about Wade is because he's been inefficient by his standards (with Bosh not being all that more efficient). If he returns to his usual 48-50% average, those complaints will slowly fade out.

I don't see percent of Isos as being more relevant than total Isos. If one guy gets 5 possessions a game with two Isos he has an iso % of 40%. If the other guys gets 40 possessions a per game with 12 Isos he has an iso % of 30%. Which player would you say is more involved?

Also based in that chart Bosh gets 1.02 points per Iso posession versus Wade at 0.64. That is a huge difference. If anything based on that alone Wade should take less Isos.

As to the comments that Bosh has not been much more efficient, Bosh has a very good TS% of 57.5 versus Wade's below average of 51.1%. Again, big difference.

Part of this is on Bosh though. He just needs to shoot more which he has been over the past two weeks

The discussion was Wade allegedly isolating too much, which he clearly doesn't. I never debated that he should isolate more or Bosh should isolate less. And to point out that Wade isolates too much, the percentage is a good fit because it shows compared to the rest of the league, he simply doesn't isolate that much.

Bosh's TS% is higher due to his three-point shooting. At the end of the day, they both produce a similar amount of points on a similar FG%. In Bosh's case, I question whether he'd still have such a high TS% if he shot the ball significantly more. Particularly his three point shooting is very inconsistent, so I don't want him chucking up a high amount of them.

At the end of the day, our shot distribution isn't much of a problem. It is simply guys not making shots they usually make at a good clip. I see us get plenty of good shots and just plain miss them. As we've seen against Orlando, our offense is good when that changes.

Part of the difference between a star player and role player is the amount of shots they can comfeterably take.

Stars will usually shot better if you give a lot of shots, because that allows them to get into a rhythm and showcase their full arsenal. Role players will see a drop in efficiency because they can handle good shots created by others but if they try to do too much you can see their limitations.

so IMO Bosh can handle more shots easily, and he might actually shot better with more shots. Kevin Love shot very well in Minny for the same reason, a talented player who feels free to chuck and like he's the man will often look good and in a grove.

About the statement in large don't - that's just factually wrong.

Wade take's 16.3 shots and produces 18.7 points
Bosh takes 13.7 shots and produces 18.2 points
That's not the same efficiency.
Bosh also shoots 5% better from FT.

Bottom line, Wade still can be great, but needs to take a step back when he's not feeling it. We have other guys that can take over when needed.

[RexBoyWonder]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

I think that's partly true. But there can be solid reasoning. Some people might think that :

1. Bosh is a better shooter. So a mid range shot by Bosh looks fine to them, but a mid range for Wade, not so much.
2. Bosh being a big, helps us by drawing out a big defender from the paint regardless if the shot is in or out. That's a +.
3. Wade being a guard, can freeze out other players if he gets too trigger happy. Bosh relies on others to give the ball, so his chucking is limited by nature.
4. Bosh shots 3's, which we really need.
5. Wade is the better slasher and passer then Bosh, so there's a bigger desire to showcase those parts of his game when his shot is off.

[DWadeno3]

I don't see percent of Isos as being more relevant than total Isos. If one guy gets 5 possessions a game with two Isos he has an iso % of 40%. If the other guys gets 40 possessions a per game with 12 Isos he has an iso % of 30%. Which player would you say is more involved?

Also based in that chart Bosh gets 1.02 points per Iso posession versus Wade at 0.64. That is a huge difference. If anything based on that alone Wade should take less Isos.

As to the comments that Bosh has not been much more efficient, Bosh has a very good TS% of 57.5 versus Wade's below average of 51.1%. Again, big difference.

Part of this is on Bosh though. He just needs to shoot more which he has been over the past two weeks

The discussion was Wade allegedly isolating too much, which he clearly doesn't. I never debated that he should isolate more or Bosh should isolate less. And to point out that Wade isolates too much, the percentage is a good fit because it shows compared to the rest of the league, he simply doesn't isolate that much.

Bosh's TS% is higher due to his three-point shooting. At the end of the day, they both produce a similar amount of points on a similar FG%. In Bosh's case, I question whether he'd still have such a high TS% if he shot the ball significantly more. Particularly his three point shooting is very inconsistent, so I don't want him chucking up a high amount of them.

At the end of the day, our shot distribution isn't much of a problem. It is simply guys not making shots they usually make at a good clip. I see us get plenty of good shots and just plain miss them. As we've seen against Orlando, our offense is good when that changes.

Part of the difference between a star player and role player is the amount of shots they can comfeterably take.

Stars will usually shot better if you give a lot of shots, because that allows them to get into a rhythm and showcase their full arsenal. Role players will see a drop in efficiency because they can handle good shots created by others but if they try to do too much you can see their limitations.

so IMO Bosh can handle more shots easily, and he might actually shot better with more shots. Kevin Love shot very well in Minny for the same reason, a talented player who feels free to chuck and like he's the man will often look good and in a grove.

About the statement in large don't - that's just factually wrong.

Wade take's 16.3 shots and produces 18.7 points
Bosh takes 13.7 shots and produces 18.2 points
That's not the same efficiency.
Bosh also shoots 5% better from FT.

Bottom line, Wade still can be great, but needs to take a step back when he's not feeling it. We have other guys that can take over when needed.

Read my post correctly, I was mostly alluding to his three point shooting, which is the reason his TS% is much better. I just don't consider Bosh to be a high volume three-point shooter and think his percentage there will drop.

Also, I never discussed efficiency per se. I stated they both score a similar amount of points on a similar FG%. That is not factually wrong.

My conclusion is: Bosh is more efficient now because he takes less amount of shots, but if one were to give him more shots, I don't see the same type of efficiency from downtown and hence not a more productive offense in general.

[DWadeno3]

I think that's partly true. But there can be solid reasoning. Some people might think that :

1. Bosh is a better shooter. So a mid range shot by Bosh looks fine to them, but a mid range for Wade, not so much.
2. Bosh being a big, helps us by drawing out a big defender from the paint regardless if the shot is in or out. That's a +.
3. Wade being a guard, can freeze out other players if he gets too trigger happy. Bosh relies on others to give the ball, so his chucking is limited by nature.
4. Bosh shots 3's, which we really need.
5. Wade is the better slasher and passer then Bosh, so there's a bigger desire to showcase those parts of his game when his shot is off.[/quote]

Re 1: Bosh is a better midrange shooter, but Wade is good enough to take them as well.
Re 2: Aside of the fact that good spacing always requires your guards to not be liabilities from the outside, in today's small ball league, that advantage is not as significant as it once used to be.
Re 3: That depends on the type of shots he takes. Since Wade is not our point guard per se, he needs to get the ball first just as much as Bosh does. At the same time Bosh can just as much freeze the rest out if he receives the ball first.
Re 4: Agreed here:
Re 5: Here I fully agree with you and that's where my main criticism with Wade lies: He settles too much. Whether it's on post-ups, on pick-and-rolls or on isolations, he likes his variety of jumpers, which he can make, too much. I get where he is coming from, he wants to preserve his body. In a recent interview I saw with him, he even said he spends a lot more time working his body out and maintaining it rather than working on his basketball game and I think he doesn't have a good balance in that regard anymore. I'd rather have him take a game off here and there and be in attack mode when he plays than have him settle so much. This is not the Big Three era anymore and the East has gotten much stronger, so him performing well for 65 games rather than play in 70+ is essential to us.

[Shewasfly]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

I think that's partly true. But there can be solid reasoning. Some people might think that :

1. Bosh is a better shooter. So a mid range shot by Bosh looks fine to them, but a mid range for Wade, not so much.
2. Bosh being a big, helps us by drawing out a big defender from the paint regardless if the shot is in or out. That's a +.
3. Wade being a guard, can freeze out other players if he gets too trigger happy. Bosh relies on others to give the ball, so his chucking is limited by nature.
4. Bosh shots 3's, which we really need.
5. Wade is the better slasher and passer then Bosh, so there's a bigger desire to showcase those parts of his game when his shot is off.

1. Wade is a good mid range shooter, actually. The difference is the mid range shots Wade gets (contested) and the ones Bosh gets (open).
2. I agree that is a +. But bigs leave Bosh open all the time? While Bosh is a decent 3 point shooter, he is not a sharp shooter by any means. That's why teams can and do effectively pack the paint even with him in.
3. If 16 shots is chucking and Bosh is getting 14, it seems to me he manages to "chuck" just fine.
4. But Wade plays the biggest part in creating these 3's Bosh shoots. Bosh's shot are generally a lot more open because, ironically like I said, Wade creates them and draws his defender. How do you limit Wade having the ball in his hands without decreasing Bosh's efficiency, which actually isn't all that great especially for a big anyway?
5. Like I said, it doesn't matter when his shot is off or on, the complaints remain. I really think its because most don't see him as part of the future, so him still being our best player makes them uneasy. I get it.

Its not like I'm trying to get anyone to change their opinion, I take all of this with a grain of salt. I was just saying what I see.

[Shewasfly]

I think a happy medium would be for Dragic to get Wade involved off the ball, which imo I don't see at all at the moment. If Dragic can find a way to hit Wade when he's cutting, or get him in positions where he can quickly score or has the defense off balance and he'll be fouled, the so-called Wade "chucking" will go away. Its not as if Wade has ever really been a selfish player so he could easily use the time he has with the ball in his hands to just create for others. But then somebody will need to create for him. The problem is, Dragic already has difficulty even getting Hassan the ball, and he's a huge target. So with Wade, its just unlikely.

[Chalm Down]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

This board (and Heat fans in general) has been kind of strange when it comes to our star players this season. When the team is coming off a loss, some people tend to blame just one player for all the issues, whether it's Wade, Bosh, or Dragic. Of course it's fine for people to share their opinion and criticize players, but some people get really heated about these three guys.

Idk, player wars within a fandom are just weird to me lol.

[Shewasfly]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

This board (and Heat fans in general) has been kind of strange when it comes to our star players this season. When the team is coming off a loss, some people tend to blame just one player for all the issues, whether it's Wade, Bosh, or Dragic. Of course it's fine for people to share their opinion and criticize players, but some people get really heated about these three guys.

Idk, player wars within a fandom are just weird to me lol.

I wasn't on here but I bet it started during the Big 3 era. Other than the championships and success I seriously hated everything about that time. Everything became about the individual (LeBron) getting his way and everybody stepping back to serve him, and I think now with him gone its just continuing with other players. The bad part imo is that it seriously isn't as bad (or bad at all) like it was then, so its a shame people are making it about so and so needing to step back and let so and so do this.

[DWadeno3]

Someone said that once Wade's efficiency increases, the complaining will stop.

I strongly disagree.

I have seen enough of this board to know that a lot of posters simply don't like to see Wade shoot. It doesn't even matter whether he shoots and makes it, they just don't like it. If he misses he will be "Kade" who is chucking the game away, and if he makes it there will be complaints of hero ball anyway.

The funny thing is that its true what is being said: other than the pick and pop which, ironically, Wade generates the best because defenders come to him, Bosh isolates way more and his game is far more iso-oriented. But he's not Wade so its okay. Case in point, there was that 30 point game Bosh had awhile back where he got hot in the first part of the 4th quarter. Bosh was literally just isolating and taking jumpers over his defender. That's literally all he did, no one else would even touch the ball on the possession. But when I came onto realgm it was like night and day from when its Wade. So the simple fact is that a lot of fans on here simply don't like it when Wade shoots. If they feel he's any more involved in the offense than Bosh, Dragic, or Whiteside, they are upset. Even though its Wade who consistently can create open looks for all those guys I don't know if its just people feeling like Wade isn't apart of our future, so him excelling is meaningless or what, but its very much a thing that happens.

This board (and Heat fans in general) has been kind of strange when it comes to our star players this season. When the team is coming off a loss, some people tend to blame just one player for all the issues, whether it's Wade, Bosh, or Dragic. Of course it's fine for people to share their opinion and criticize players, but some people get really heated about these three guys.

Idk, player wars within a fandom are just weird to me lol.

I wasn't on here but I bet it started during the Big 3 era. Other than the championships and success I seriously hated everything about that time. Everything became about the individual (LeBron) getting his way and everybody stepping back to serve him, and I think now with him gone its just continuing with other players. The bad part imo is that it seriously isn't as bad (or bad at all) like it was then, so its a shame people are making it about so and so needing to step back and let so and so do this.

I loved the era, loved the hate from the outside, loved the pressure and loved the unit we had. The wars about certain players has always been there. In the Big Three era it obviously intensified because LeBron has a lot of followers on here, but even people who don't support a certain player have certain agendas.
It's human to have preconceived notions or form opinions quickly and stick with them. Some consider Wade a chucker this year so when he has a bad shooting night, they don't differ between missing good shots and taking bad ones. In Dragic's case, a lot of people simply point to his raw stats rather than acknowledging his decreased role on this team. That led to people fighting over the role Dragic should play here. Again there's hardly any middle ground and it mostly ranges from trading him to making him the primary ball handler. In the Big Three era, Bosh ate a lot of s*** in a similar role.

Wade is probably in the worst spot of all because he's far from the shiny new toy. He's been here his entire career, we've gone through all the ups and downs with him and most people probably want to see a new guy lead the team. Now that Wade has had a tough start to the season, it's easy to single him out and call him a chucker.

If you want a great example of the extremes, however, just look at Hassan. From those using certain stats to point he's not of great use to us to those wanting him to make the cornerstone of the franchise, you have two massive extremes.