Brady's legacy

Celtsfan1980 · Post #1 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:25 pm

Matt Cassel has been a failure in every team he has gone on except for one:New England. Five games worse the year of Brady's injury, but also one game worse the following year when Brady came back. If New England continues playing well after Brady retires, how does this not hurt his legacy?

Mamba Mentality · Post #2 » by **Mamba Mentality** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:23 am

Doesn't have any effect on his legacy whatsoever. He'll still be considered arguably the greatest qb of all time.

Celtsfan1980 · Post #3 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:24 pm

Along with Cassel's failures in Dallas this season, I've also noticed Eli's numbers with Beckham are better while Rodgers' numbers without Nelson are worse. Eli has a better quarterback rating than Rodgers as of right now. The difference between a very good quarterback(Eli) and a great one(Rodgers) is much smaller than the average football fan would like to believe. Supporting cast can make a big difference, and that's where Tom Brady has been very lucky.

RavenMad31 · Post #4 » by **RavenMad31** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:39 pm

Celtsfan1980 wrote:Along with Cassel's failures in Dallas this season, I've also noticed Eli's numbers with Beckham are better while Rodgers' numbers without Nelson are worse. Eli has a better quarterback rating than Rodgers as of right now. The difference between a very good quarterback(Eli) and a great one(Rodgers) is much smaller than the average football fan would like to believe. Supporting cast can make a big difference, and that's where Tom Brady has been very lucky.

Tom Brady has been lucky as it relates to supporting cast? Really? He got one good year of Randy Moss and he gets sporadic injury proned greatness from Gronk as long as he's healthy.
Matt Cassell failed his way to the playoffs with the Chiefs.
This Brady legacy thing is actually getting pretty tiresome. He has been to the most Super Bowls, he has won the most Super Bowls, he has put up monster numbers and has consistently beaten his number one rival over the last 15 years. He has done it with multiple personnel turnovers. He has done it in crappy NE US weather. In fact, his late season play has generally been better than his early season play. He is accurate, his arm has some pop, he isn't fast, but isn't a complete statue. He is also one of the best at running the sneak. What more does this guy have to do? GOAT shouldn't even be a close consideration to any sane person.

Revived · Post #5 » by **Revived** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:14 am

Deflate gate will hurt his legacy more than this.

kbitboc · Post #6 » by **kbitboc** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:46 am

You do realize that Matt Cassel made the probowl with Kansas City?

Celtsfan1980 · Post #7 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:03 pm

When a team moves on to another quarterback(as the Chiefs did with Cassel) that's failure. There are exceptions(old age) but they don't apply in this case.

RavenMad31 wrote:GOAT shouldn't even be a close consideration to any sane person.

Joe Montana's supporting cast:all I ever hear about is Jerry Rice. Montana dominated in two of his four Super Bowls, while Brady has had to rely on his field goal kicker. Add Montana's injuries, and it's not close.

LAKESHOW · Post #8 » by **LAKESHOW** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:07 pm

Champion. cheater. Winner. liar. Hall of Famer. Evidence destroyer.

RavenMad31 · Post #9 » by **RavenMad31** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:56 pm

Celtsfan1980 wrote:When a team moves on to another quarterback(as the Chiefs did with Cassel) that's failure. There are exceptions(old age) but they don't apply in this case.
RavenMad31 wrote:GOAT shouldn't even be a close consideration to any sane person.

Joe Montana's supporting cast:all I ever hear about is Jerry Rice. Montana dominated in two of his four Super Bowls, while Brady has had to rely on his field goal kicker. Add Montana's injuries, and it's not close.

Okay, so two of Montana's SBs weren't close. One was won against Marino and his JV cast of bums and the other was against Elway and his cast of JV bums. Those two QBs pretty much went to the Super Bowl themselves, so of course they were going to get smoked by a team loaded with HoFers on both sides of the ball. Brady dominated against a defense that embarrassed the hell out of Peyton Manning in the previous SB and was just as good when Brady faced them. Even without winning the Super Bowl, the undefeated season was about as impressive as anything I've seen. Brady is playing in an era where the league is rigged to make everyone 8-8, so your dynasty is being whittled away the moment you win a SB.

laika · Post #10 » by **laika** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:43 pm

Brady's legacy should be as the greatest QB to ever play.
Montana is the only QB who is even close. But Montana had a much better supporting cast than Brady. If Brady had the support that Montana had then he would be the Wayne Gretzky of football.

The defense has been overrated for a long time now. They have rarely been able to stop teams when it counted over the last 12 years. Don't forget that Brady puts the defense in a better position to succeed than any other defense.
The offensive line is highly overrated. They usually can't run the ball. Brady makes their pass protection look much better. In the year that Brady was out the Patriots O-Line led the league in sacks allowed.
The skill position players are a joke. Gronkowski and Moss for 1 year are pretty much the only top players Brady has ever had to work with. In his one year with a top WR Brady had the best season ever.

inquisitive · Post #11 » by **inquisitive** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:14 pm

We can debate whether he is the greatest or not, but we can't deny Bilcheck at the greatest coach. Matt Cassel was a stud under Bill, but failed elsewhere.

therealbig3 · Post #12 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:02 am

inquisitive wrote:We can debate whether he is the greatest or not, but we can't deny Bilcheck at the greatest coach. Matt Cassel was a stud under Bill, but failed elsewhere.

kbitboc wrote:You do realize that Matt Cassel made the probowl with Kansas City?

Also, a 16-win team going to 11 wins is a big fall off. It proves Brady's greatness that he can take an already good team and turn them into one of the greatest teams of all time. Usually, it's hard to improve good teams all that much more, but Brady had them on a completely different level, because he was that good.

El Turco · Post #13 » by **El Turco** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:16 pm

LAKESHOW wrote:Champion. cheater. Winner. liar. Hall of Famer. Evidence destroyer.

add trump supporter to the file.

Celtsfan1980 · Post #14 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:23 pm

RavenMad31 wrote:
Celtsfan1980 wrote:When a team moves on to another quarterback(as the Chiefs did with Cassel) that's failure. There are exceptions(old age) but they don't apply in this case.
RavenMad31 wrote:GOAT shouldn't even be a close consideration to any sane person.

Joe Montana's supporting cast:all I ever hear about is Jerry Rice. Montana dominated in two of his four Super Bowls, while Brady has had to rely on his field goal kicker. Add Montana's injuries, and it's not close.

Okay, so two of Montana's SBs weren't close. One was won against Marino and his JV cast of bums and the other was against Elway and his cast of JV bums. Those two QBs pretty much went to the Super Bowl themselves, so of course they were going to get smoked by a team loaded with HoFers on both sides of the ball. Brady dominated against a defense that embarrassed the hell out of Peyton Manning in the previous SB and was just as good when Brady faced them. Even without winning the Super Bowl, the undefeated season was about as impressive as anything I've seen. Brady is playing in an era where the league is rigged to make everyone 8-8, so your dynasty is being whittled away the moment you win a SB.

The playoffs are more important to me than anything. The undefeated Patriots went against weak competition in the playoffs. His offensive line didn't play well vs. New York, but I didn't think Brady played great enough to win. Maybe decent games against New York twice. Six Super Bowls and maybe two very good games. Montana four Super Bowls and three very good games. It's not impossible to imagine Montana winning six Super Bowls if he had stayed healthy in the NFC Championship game vs. New York during the prime of his career. Brady can have number 2 but he's no Montana.

Celtsfan1980 · Post #15 » by **Celtsfan1980** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:26 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Also, a 16-win team going to 11 wins is a big fall off. It proves Brady's greatness that he can take an already good team and turn them into one of the greatest teams of all time. Usually, it's hard to improve good teams all that much more, but Brady had them on a completely different level, because he was that good.

We also have to acknowledge the one game drop the following season when Brady came back. It doesn't look as good when you take both into account.

RavenMad31 · Post #16 » by **RavenMad31** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:39 pm

Celtsfan1980 wrote:
RavenMad31 wrote:
Celtsfan1980 wrote:When a team moves on to another quarterback(as the Chiefs did with Cassel) that's failure. There are exceptions(old age) but they don't apply in this case.

Joe Montana's supporting cast:all I ever hear about is Jerry Rice. Montana dominated in two of his four Super Bowls, while Brady has had to rely on his field goal kicker. Add Montana's injuries, and it's not close.

Okay, so two of Montana's SBs weren't close. One was won against Marino and his JV cast of bums and the other was against Elway and his cast of JV bums. Those two QBs pretty much went to the Super Bowl themselves, so of course they were going to get smoked by a team loaded with HoFers on both sides of the ball. Brady dominated against a defense that embarrassed the hell out of Peyton Manning in the previous SB and was just as good when Brady faced them. Even without winning the Super Bowl, the undefeated season was about as impressive as anything I've seen. Brady is playing in an era where the league is rigged to make everyone 8-8, so your dynasty is being whittled away the moment you win a SB.

The playoffs are more important to me than anything. The undefeated Patriots went against weak competition in the playoffs. His offensive line didn't play well vs. New York, but I didn't think Brady played great enough to win. Maybe decent games against New York twice. Six Super Bowls and maybe two very good games. Montana four Super Bowls and three very good games. It's not impossible to imagine Montana winning six Super Bowls if he had stayed healthy in the NFC Championship game vs. New York during the prime of his career. Brady can have number 2 but he's no Montana.

Tom Brady has 17000 more yards, about 150 more TDs, a better completion percentage, a lower INT percentage (Brady has 2400 more attempts and only 11 more picks), a better QB rating an equal amount of SB wins and two extra appearances to boot. Brady has 55 more career wins to only 3 more losses (they both played in similarly **** divisions), Brady has five more playoff wins to only one more loss, a slightly better playoff completion percentage, a lower postseason INT percentage, and gives up 6 points of QBR in the only significant career stat that you can contrive where Montana beats Brady.

Post #17 » by **Worm Guts** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:48 pm

It's probably not fair to straight up compare statistics for QB's across eras, unless you believe the top 4 QB's of all time are all currently playing.
Tom Brady's legacy is unquestionable though.

LAKESHOW · Post #18 » by **LAKESHOW** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:37 pm

Only 1 won 4 superbowls legimately. The other while a fantastic quarterback, cannot be in the consideration. He lied to investigators. He coverd up evidence. And destroying his phone every few months, is one of the biggest BS stories ive ever heard of. As being the reason why he destroyed his phone. LOL. Champion? yes. GREATEST? no. He has that big C word hanging over his head.

kbitboc · Post #19 » by **kbitboc** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:59 pm

LAKESHOW wrote:Only 1 won 4 superbowls legimately. The other while a fantastic quarterback, cannot be in the consideration. He lied to investigators. He coverd up evidence. And destroying his phone every few months, is one of the biggest BS stories ive ever heard of. As being the reason why he destroyed his phone. LOL. Champion? yes. GREATEST? no. He has that big C word hanging over his head.

In my book, Jerry Rice playing with stickem and the 49ers lineman putting Vasoline on their shirts to make it more slippery counts as cheating.

truth18 · Post #20 » by **truth18** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:35 pm

LAKESHOW wrote:Only 1 won 4 superbowls legimately. The other while a fantastic quarterback, cannot be in the consideration. He lied to investigators. He coverd up evidence. And destroying his phone every few months, is one of the biggest BS stories ive ever heard of. As being the reason why he destroyed his phone. LOL. Champion? yes. GREATEST? no. He has that big C word hanging over his head.

Not really. Pretty much no one other than the staunch Brady haters care much about deflategate. The general public/football culture determines the GOAT, not haters like you.

By this time next year, it will be all but forgotten, just as I predicted. It wasn't a big enough issue to affect his legacy.