Defensive Reasons - The PJ Hairston Thread

HornetJail · Post #1201 » by **HornetJail** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:35 pm

Looking at just the last 7 games, he's 18-41 from three- 44% on 6 attempts per game. I'll take that all day every day. That even includes his disastrous Houston game and the game in Boston where he was a non-factor.

Post #1202 » by **yosemiteben** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:13 pm

PJ has clearly outplayed Lamb offensively and defensively in the 13 games we have played in the month of December. Lamb outplayed PJ offensively in the 15 games we played in the month of November, but PJ was still the superior defender.

I don't understand how one could say that, based on this season, PJ is not an NBA player but Lamb deserves a $21M three year deal.

I'm not upset about Lamb's deal, I think that Cliff has to teach him defense from the ground up and I trust him to do that. On defense Lamb looks like PJ looked last year. He has the tools, he just doesn't have the mindset and gets lost too often. I'm confident he'll get there. Offensively Lamb is in a bit of a slump because he's trying to find his way in our offense. I'm confident he'll do that too.

I do think it was a bit silly to not pick up PJ's option since it was so cheap, but I also think it was part of a strategic decision to force PJ to improve. He can't bank on future money coming in so he needs to buy in and have no off court issues. If he does that, I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a contract offer from us waiting for him after this season, and since we are his hometown team (he's from Greensboro) and he clearly has a good relationship with Clifford, maybe he'll stick around after this season. If he underperforms or has off court issues, then we can cut ties.

LamarMatic7 · Post #1203 » by **LamarMatic7** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:23 pm

yosemiteben wrote:If he does that, I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a contract offer from us waiting for him after this season, and since we are his hometown team (he's from Greensboro) and he clearly has a good relationship with Clifford, maybe he'll stick around after this season. If he underperforms or has off court issues, then we can cut ties.

The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Post #1204 » by **yosemiteben** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:39 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Didn't realize that, interesting. Can other teams offer him more? I assumed that once you turn down the option, then he essentially becomes an unrestricted free agent the next summer.

LamarMatic7 · Post #1205 » by **LamarMatic7** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:07 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Didn't realize that, interesting. Can other teams offer him more? I assumed that once you turn down the option, then he essentially becomes an unrestricted free agent the next summer.

BlackOutBuzz, who's way smarter about this than me, wasn't exactly sure about that and said that he might look up some examples from the past to give his answer. Maybe I haven't noticed his if/what he came up with something and does he have a sure answer about it now.

However, I listen to Nate Duncan's podcast from time to time and I can definitely say that at least he (and Danny Leroux) believe that the situation is such as you described. And from what I can tell, both of them are cap dorks and know their stuff. But, hey, this is a unique situation so I'm still not a 100% certain.

Post #1206 » by **yosemiteben** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:13 pm

I can't imagine you see a lot of bidding wars for guys on their rookie contracts who have had their teams decline to pick up their option (the whole point of the rookie scale and option system is so teams don't have to overpay to retain young guys or keep paying unproductive players), so I guess it makes sense that it's a novel issue. Surely our FO must have thought of this before they went this route, so hopefully the answer isn't that we're capped at his option amount.

Snidely FC · Post #1207 » by **Snidely FC** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:16 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:If he does that, I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a contract offer from us waiting for him after this season, and since we are his hometown team (he's from Greensboro) and he clearly has a good relationship with Clifford, maybe he'll stick around after this season. If he underperforms or has off court issues, then we can cut ties.

The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Seriously that sucks.

spaceballer · Post #1208 » by **spaceballer** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:29 am

Snidely FC wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:If he does that, I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a contract offer from us waiting for him after this season, and since we are his hometown team (he's from Greensboro) and he clearly has a good relationship with Clifford, maybe he'll stick around after this season. If he underperforms or has off court issues, then we can cut ties.

The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)

Braggins · Post #1209 » by **Braggins** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:47 am

Please keep hitting shots.

DY_nasty · Post #1210 » by **DY_nasty** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:04 am

spaceballer wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)

SO basically he has to love it here :roll:

spaceballer · Post #1211 » by **spaceballer** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:12 am

DY_nasty wrote:
spaceballer wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)
SO basically he has to love it here

And money.

Post #1212 » by **JDR720** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:38 am

if he can keep it up and be at least a decent 3&D player i would be happy with offering him a 2-3 year deal for about 6-8 million total

TinmanZBoy · Post #1213 » by **TinmanZBoy** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:29 am

well, you can have him cheap for another two years, if now you have to overpay to keep him, that's not good business...
the hornets should have picked PJ's option... it would be at least very tradable...

EwingSweatsALot · Post #1214 » by **EwingSweatsALot** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:41 am

Even I can admit that PJ has been playing really well lately. He is hitting his shots and playing well on defense. It's still too early to talk money about him though. We have too much evidence of poor PJ and about a month or so of showing us what he is capable of. Keep it up and then I'll be pissed we didn't pick up the option.

LamarMatic7 · Post #1215 » by **LamarMatic7** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:56 am

spaceballer wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:
LamarMatic7 wrote:The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)

Thanks for correcting me.

Still not a good situation for us. If you have a guy tied up to 1-million-per-year deal and he has shown at least some flashes of being worthy of rotation minutes, you hang on to him. Playable guys on rookie deals are bargains, period.

Snidely FC · Post #1216 » by **Snidely FC** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:15 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:
spaceballer wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)

Thanks for correcting me.

Still not a good situation for us. If you have a guy tied up to 1-million-per-year deal and he has shown at least some flashes of being worthy of rotation minutes, you hang on to him. Playable guys on rookie deals are bargains, period.

Yeah, the whole league is clamoring for Rim Protectors and 3&D Wings, and in Biz and PJ this team had control of two 22 year old first round picks who are a Rim Protector and 3&D Wing and did not view them as assets. The rookie salary scale process gives teams control of young players as assets for years. I understand the warts of both these players, but it makes zero sense to me not to treat these guys as fungible assets under the team's control. The salaries we're talking about here are minuscule in relative terms. It just seems like bad business.

SWedd523 · Post #1217 » by **SWedd523** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:51 pm

A week ago it wasn't bad business, but now that he's had a mini purple patch, we're going to suddenly forget that he's been a pretty crappy player his entire career?

I get the fact that fans (for some reason) are hot and cold with players as they have their ups and downs, but I feel like we're particularly in-the-moment type of fans.

I'm glad he's finally played a few games up to his potential, but I have a feeling PJ is going to go back to his "pretty good defense, mostly bad offense" days and we'll go back to lamenting his time in a Hornets jersey.

BatumtheGlue · Post #1218 » by **BatumtheGlue** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:09 pm

His entire career is just 2 years... He still has a lot of time to improve. From what i saw, he is a coachable player, so i still put my trust in him as long as he is a Hornet

DY_nasty · Post #1219 » by **DY_nasty** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:14 pm

SWedd523 wrote:A week ago it wasn't bad business, but now that he's had a mini purple patch, we're going to suddenly forget that he's been a pretty crappy player his entire career?

I get the fact that fans (for some reason) are hot and cold with players as they have their ups and downs, but I feel like we're particularly in-the-moment type of fans.

I'm glad he's finally played a few games up to his potential, but I have a feeling PJ is going to go back to his "pretty good defense, mostly bad offense" days and we'll go back to lamenting his time in a Hornets jersey.

his "entire career" consists mainly of that trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad. he had no role last year and the team had no direction either. i've been saying forever that blaming a rookie for not flourishing in that environment was dumb

he was playing great on defense and was always in his spots offensively since opening night, he was just ridiculously cold. now he's hitting shots - but he's really not doing anything different since october.

if anyone has a career worth noting its lamb... some nights i can actually understand why they thought dion waiters was a better option

BatumtheGlue · Post #1220 » by **BatumtheGlue** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:24 pm

One thing i like the most from PJ is he never tried to do much. For me he has everything to be a really good role player within the system. IF he keep his recent performance for the rest of this season then i will not surprise if he becomes more valuable player than Lamb.