Defensive Reasons - The PJ Hairston Thread

[TinmanZBoy]

Biz's options were exercised, quite different from PJ

[SWedd523]

A week ago it wasn't bad business, but now that he's had a mini purple patch, we're going to suddenly forget that he's been a pretty crappy player his entire career?

I get the fact that fans (for some reason) are hot and cold with players as they have their ups and downs, but I feel like we're particularly in-the-moment type of fans.

I'm glad he's finally played a few games up to his potential, but I have a feeling PJ is going to go back to his "pretty good defense, mostly bad offense" days and we'll go back to lamenting his time in a Hornets jersey.

his "entire career" consists mainly of that trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad. he had no role last year and the team had no direction either. i've been saying forever that blaming a rookie for not flourishing in that environment was dumb

he was playing great on defense and was always in his spots offensively since opening night, he was just ridiculously cold. now he's hitting shots - but he's really not doing anything different since october.

if anyone has a career worth noting its lamb... some nights i can actually understand why they thought dion waiters was a better option

I've read your defensive posts on PJ before, so I'm not surprised to get a response from you. I guess I should disclaim a little bit by saying I've been a fan of his (potential) going back to his (overall disappointing) days at UNC.

But you will never get me to agree with the claim that he played like flat ass last year because it was a "trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad". No one can reasonably believe that.

First of all, it's a bit hyperbolic to say last year was a trainwreck, unless you're referring specifically to PJ and Lance. The Sixers for the past forever and the Suns this year are having trainwreck seasons.

PJ averaged 32.3% from the floor. For the year. He had 5 games where he made 3+ threes. He had 5 games where he shot at least 50% on %+ FGA. His season high was 16 points. Never had more than 2 assists (only did that twice). Only had one game over 4 rebounds. And he posted a PER of 9.0.

There is no excusing that. In comparison, the Sixers last year had guys like Nerlens Noel, Tony Wroten, and Ish Smith posted at least promising-ish numbers. This year the Suns have had Bledsoe, Knight doing their thing and guys like Warren, Len, and Booker flash potential while the Sixers have had better than expected production from guys like TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Jerami Grant.

The past two games have had fans start to turn around on PJ and I think it's mostly because he simply hasn't been bad (matched up against mega studs Courtney Lee and Lou Williams). He's shot a combined 6-11 for 13.5 points, but only attempted one FT, pulled in zero rebounds, 2 total assists, 2 total steals, and 8 total fouls.

Including these two "good games", his averages are just about the exact same as they were last year in three more minutes a night with a modest bump in FG% (32.3% to 36.0%). He's had every opportunity to show that he has what it takes to be a good player but what's his excuse this year? Still a trainwreck of a season or is he simply not that good?

As much as I'd like new PJ to be permanent PJ, I have a feeling old PJ is going to replace new PJ pretty soon.

[UNCNYC]

Us not extending PJ and letting Biz go was bad business. PJ had not even really played yet. I could see if it was via trade for a really decent player but to just not give him the offer was bad. He has good potential and if he can land on a San Antonio squad dude could be real nice off the bench there. He might could even be a star on a bum team. Just bad business

[TinmanZBoy]

i think people have to look at the money and cap space next year, his option is like a minimum guy who fills in a roster, could be easily traded or dumped... the only rationale for Cho is once MKG is healthy, PJ will not see the court, but even for that, PJ's contract is team friendly, he is no difference from Roberts, Psycho T, Daniels and he is cheaper... just bad business

[yosemiteben]

PJ had multiple off court issues last season on top of his poor performance. I have no problem with a tough love approach with him, even if it ends up being more expensive in the long run. We have given him a solid support system and a coach that believes in him but is disciplined and is willing to invest the time to teach PJ how to be a contributor.

I think pulling the option was a necessary evil to get PJ's attention and get him to stay out out of off court issues. This is the same guy that sat out his last season at UNC because he was cruising around Durham with drugs and a gun in a car that he was driving but was rented to a booster. He then proceeded to hire an agent that was not actually certified as an agent, got in a fight during a pickup game at Y after he was drafted, and had to sit out multiple games last season because of off court issues or due to lack of being prepared.

I am very happy for PJ that he seems to have found a role and that he has seemed to keep himself out of trouble, but I think he really needed a wake up call.

[UNCNYC]

I think its obvious that Cho LOVED LAMB and pretty much HATED PJ. I think he thought Lamb would be the hidden talent and we wouldn't have to worry about getting someone to fill PJ's spot but it seems so far to have been the opposite. Lamb is the player that appears to be the guy you can get anywhere and PJ appears to be turning into a solid player that you can build with

Kemba
Batum
PJ
Frank
Zeller
Lin


not a bad young core. Just need a couple of pieces probably minor and we could contend.

[BatumtheGlue]

As much as i love PJ i don't think he is not gonna be a star even on a bum team my friend....

[DY_nasty]

A week ago it wasn't bad business, but now that he's had a mini purple patch, we're going to suddenly forget that he's been a pretty crappy player his entire career?

I get the fact that fans (for some reason) are hot and cold with players as they have their ups and downs, but I feel like we're particularly in-the-moment type of fans.

I'm glad he's finally played a few games up to his potential, but I have a feeling PJ is going to go back to his "pretty good defense, mostly bad offense" days and we'll go back to lamenting his time in a Hornets jersey.

his "entire career" consists mainly of that trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad. he had no role last year and the team had no direction either. i've been saying forever that blaming a rookie for not flourishing in that environment was dumb

he was playing great on defense and was always in his spots offensively since opening night, he was just ridiculously cold. now he's hitting shots - but he's really not doing anything different since october.

if anyone has a career worth noting its lamb... some nights i can actually understand why they thought dion waiters was a better option

I've read your defensive posts on PJ before, so I'm not surprised to get a response from you. I guess I should disclaim a little bit by saying I've been a fan of his (potential) going back to his (overall disappointing) days at UNC.

But you will never get me to agree with the claim that he played like flat ass last year because it was a "trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad". No one can reasonably believe that.

First of all, it's a bit hyperbolic to say last year was a trainwreck, unless you're referring specifically to PJ and Lance. The Sixers for the past forever and the Suns this year are having trainwreck seasons.

PJ averaged 32.3% from the floor. For the year. He had 5 games where he made 3+ threes. He had 5 games where he shot at least 50% on %+ FGA. His season high was 16 points. Never had more than 2 assists (only did that twice). Only had one game over 4 rebounds. And he posted a PER of 9.0.

There is no excusing that. In comparison, the Sixers last year had guys like Nerlens Noel, Tony Wroten, and Ish Smith posted at least promising-ish numbers. This year the Suns have had Bledsoe, Knight doing their thing and guys like Warren, Len, and Booker flash potential while the Sixers have had better than expected production from guys like TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Jerami Grant.

The past two games have had fans start to turn around on PJ and I think it's mostly because he simply hasn't been bad (matched up against mega studs Courtney Lee and Lou Williams). He's shot a combined 6-11 for 13.5 points, but only attempted one FT, pulled in zero rebounds, 2 total assists, 2 total steals, and 8 total fouls.

Including these two "good games", his averages are just about the exact same as they were last year in three more minutes a night with a modest bump in FG% (32.3% to 36.0%). He's had every opportunity to show that he has what it takes to be a good player but what's his excuse this year? Still a trainwreck of a season or is he simply not that good?

As much as I'd like new PJ to be permanent PJ, I have a feeling old PJ is going to replace new PJ pretty soon.

I respect the numbers as always

but I really, really think you're downplaying how bad last season was and how much of an impact that a season like that can have a rookie that's far from a sure thing. him not hitting shots on a team that shot like it belonged in the 90s.... that doesn't really stick out to me. what did stick out was that in muck, he still took smarter shots than the other guys (if he was gonna gun, it was usually through catch and shoot much unlike the dribbleshootpray offense that everyone else on the team was in love with). defensively its very obvious that he's got more direction now than he ever did last year.

booker, unlike pj, has had a clear role despite what's gone on in phx. sixers... aren't an NBA team lol. if they see potential, they're liable to bench or trade you just as soon as pat you on the back. but even denver managed to cut out clear spots for their young guys despite the ups and downs. sacramento as well. mclemore was terrible for most of his rookie season. atrocious even.

all that aside... i'm not really focusing on his 'good games' so much as the fact that it was impossible to stay as cold as he was at the start of the season. these weren't forced shots, off the dribble, or anything like that. that's a cold streak for anyone, missing good shots. and even when PJ is putting up a brick house, he's where he needs to be, generally moving the ball, and playing the best d that he can.

[Snidely FC]

A week ago it wasn't bad business, but now that he's had a mini purple patch, we're going to suddenly forget that he's been a pretty crappy player his entire career?

I get the fact that fans (for some reason) are hot and cold with players as they have their ups and downs, but I feel like we're particularly in-the-moment type of fans.

I'm glad he's finally played a few games up to his potential, but I have a feeling PJ is going to go back to his "pretty good defense, mostly bad offense" days and we'll go back to lamenting his time in a Hornets jersey.

My post this morning really was meant to be about the team's decision as bad business by not treating a first round pick as an asset to be developed or traded. And I understand & appreciate Yosemiteben's citing "tough love" as a viable reason not to pick up PJ's option.

But I just wanted to point out that I am not jumping on this because of PJs Purple Patch. Last Jan folks were obsessed with trading for Jeremy Lamb so I posted (pg 46) this chestnut lol:

I just want to go on record as saying I think PJ Hairston will have a better pro career than Jeremy Lamb.

They are both 22 years old.
Like Pj right now, Lamb shot 30% from 3 as a rookie.
In his 3rd yr, often a breakout year for pro players, Lamb is shooting 32% from 3.
People expect Lamb to be a good defender because he has insanely long arms. But PJ is bigger and stronger. Lamb is only 185#. PJ outweighs him by 40#, added strength that gives him the long term advantage driving to the basket and defending.
PJ has a better motor and is more aggressive, resulting in some shot selection errors, but this team needs an aggressive shooter. I believe aggressiveness is one of PJ's better talents.
Lamb''s game is not predicated on motor the way, say, Reddick and Korver's is. He hangs on the wings or runs in transition, but he's not a curl off screen, run nonstop guy.
Fans of Lamb say he's just been blocked behind Durant and Westbrook. But those guys were hurt and the SG position was Lamb's to secure. Instead he has lost his playing time to Anthony Morrow - a 40% 3 pt shooter btw. I think because of his weak frame and lazy motor, Lamb will continue to underperform expectations.

PJ is a rookie. In year 3 if PJ is shooting 32% from 3 I will give up on him. But I would not trade PJ Hairston for Jeremy Lamb, and I believe that PJ is going to have a long and highly successful career.

I do agree that many fans are too "in the moment" and need to be patient with young players such as PJ and Lamb. I happen to believe PJ was a lottery talent who fell due to off court daftness, and who is currently benefiting from the team's "Tough Love."

[Benjamin Linus]

So PJ shot 38% from three in the 14 games in December. Making 1.7 three's in only 18.7 minutes. Small sample size, but encouraging. His FG% is going to be low considering 67% of his shot attempts were from beyond the arc.

I have no idea if he'll be able to keep making three's at a good rate. Maybe he's turned the corner shooting wise or maybe he'll revert back to being a bum. But if he can keep it up, he could be a solid backup SF. I'll need to go back and read some of the stuff regarding his contract, I just skimmed through this thread.

[Braggins]

his "entire career" consists mainly of that trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad. he had no role last year and the team had no direction either. i've been saying forever that blaming a rookie for not flourishing in that environment was dumb

he was playing great on defense and was always in his spots offensively since opening night, he was just ridiculously cold. now he's hitting shots - but he's really not doing anything different since october.

if anyone has a career worth noting its lamb... some nights i can actually understand why they thought dion waiters was a better option

I've read your defensive posts on PJ before, so I'm not surprised to get a response from you. I guess I should disclaim a little bit by saying I've been a fan of his (potential) going back to his (overall disappointing) days at UNC.

But you will never get me to agree with the claim that he played like flat ass last year because it was a "trainwreck season where everyone was playing bad". No one can reasonably believe that.

First of all, it's a bit hyperbolic to say last year was a trainwreck, unless you're referring specifically to PJ and Lance. The Sixers for the past forever and the Suns this year are having trainwreck seasons.

PJ averaged 32.3% from the floor. For the year. He had 5 games where he made 3+ threes. He had 5 games where he shot at least 50% on %+ FGA. His season high was 16 points. Never had more than 2 assists (only did that twice). Only had one game over 4 rebounds. And he posted a PER of 9.0.

There is no excusing that. In comparison, the Sixers last year had guys like Nerlens Noel, Tony Wroten, and Ish Smith posted at least promising-ish numbers. This year the Suns have had Bledsoe, Knight doing their thing and guys like Warren, Len, and Booker flash potential while the Sixers have had better than expected production from guys like TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Jerami Grant.

The past two games have had fans start to turn around on PJ and I think it's mostly because he simply hasn't been bad (matched up against mega studs Courtney Lee and Lou Williams). He's shot a combined 6-11 for 13.5 points, but only attempted one FT, pulled in zero rebounds, 2 total assists, 2 total steals, and 8 total fouls.

Including these two "good games", his averages are just about the exact same as they were last year in three more minutes a night with a modest bump in FG% (32.3% to 36.0%). He's had every opportunity to show that he has what it takes to be a good player but what's his excuse this year? Still a trainwreck of a season or is he simply not that good?

As much as I'd like new PJ to be permanent PJ, I have a feeling old PJ is going to replace new PJ pretty soon.

I respect the numbers as always

but I really, really think you're downplaying how bad last season was and how much of an impact that a season like that can have a rookie that's far from a sure thing. him not hitting shots on a team that shot like it belonged in the 90s.... that doesn't really stick out to me. what did stick out was that in muck, he still took smarter shots than the other guys (if he was gonna gun, it was usually through catch and shoot much unlike the dribbleshootpray offense that everyone else on the team was in love with). defensively its very obvious that he's got more direction now than he ever did last year.

booker, unlike pj, has had a clear role despite what's gone on in phx. sixers... aren't an NBA team lol. if they see potential, they're liable to bench or trade you just as soon as pat you on the back. but even denver managed to cut out clear spots for their young guys despite the ups and downs. sacramento as well. mclemore was terrible for most of his rookie season. atrocious even.

all that aside... i'm not really focusing on his 'good games' so much as the fact that it was impossible to stay as cold as he was at the start of the season. these weren't forced shots, off the dribble, or anything like that. that's a cold streak for anyone, missing good shots. and even when PJ is putting up a brick house, he's where he needs to be, generally moving the ball, and playing the best d that he can.

So, youre ok with PJ barely shooting over 30% from the field as a last option because of how bad the team has been, but Kemba shooting sub 40% in the same circumstance but as a first option makes him a complete scrub that should be traded for whatever we can get?

[DY_nasty]

So, youre ok with PJ barely shooting over 30% from the field as a last option because of how bad the team has been, but Kemba shooting sub 40% in the same circumstance but as a first option makes him a complete scrub that should be traded for whatever we can get?

I rag on Kemba because he hasn't improved in some really, really important aspects as a PG and the fact that he's regressed on the defensive end in a major way.

Also, he's been in the league for how many years compared to PJ? Which is referred to as the face of the franchise, etc. Never said he was complete scrub, I just don't think Kemba is a top 15PG in the NBA or worth the long term investment considering how little he's really improved at all overall since he's been in the league. I 'defend' PJ because the entire board loves scapegoating him. That's really it.

Oh and that Lamb contract is bad business in a nutshell too so I'm gonna compare the two guys a lot because of that.

[BlackOutBuzz]

The problem is that we won't be able to offer more than his declined rookie scale option. That's what makes this such a questionable move. If he performs well, it's likely that someone else will snag him up.

Seriously that sucks.

It's also erroneous information. Lamar is wrong.

PJ is a 1st round draft pick. The Hornets declined the option of the 3rd year, meaning he will have finished 2 seasons with the Hornets.

According to cap expert Larry Coons, from his salary cap FAQ, this makes PJ an unrestricted free agent: "However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend his rookie scale contract for the next season."

No restricted free agency means the Hornets don't get right of first refusal to match competing offers. He can leave if he wants to.

It does NOT mean that the Hornets may not offer him more than the amount declined in the option. The Hornets will have the 4th most free cap space in the league this summer. They can pay just as much as any other team. More, actually, since they have bird rights and tons of free cap space. (Declining the option is not the same as renouncing bird rights and caphold)

From your source:

"If the team declines either (3rd or 4th year) option and the player becomes a free agent, the team cannot re-sign him to a salary greater than he would have received had the team exercised its option. In other words, teams can't decline an option year in order to get around the rookie salary scale and give the player more money. This applies to all types of signing, including the Bird exception, the Mid-Level exception, and cap room."

And Lamar isn't wrong, but you're not really talking about the same thing.

Lamar is right that we can't offer him more than the amount he was set to make.

You are right in that we no longer have right of first refusal. Yes, he is free to sign anywhere, but Lamar's point was that - if we DO bring him back - we couldn't offer more than his designated option amount. So, you're both right, kinda.

As to Lamar's question, I haven't really had time to research it. Most guys were complete washouts (Vesley, Jimmer) and obviously never recovered enough to earn anything close to their original amount. The only recent example of someone who actually got his full value back was Austin Rivers, but he re-signed with the team that held his rights, so that doesn't really help. Another key point is that PJ's option amount was much less than those guys, teams usually just keep the cheap labor of a late first.

Honestly, the way it reads makes it sound like ONLY the prior team has this restriction. Straight from the CBA:

"Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Agreement, if a player is a Veteran Free Agent whose last Contract was a Rookie Scale Contract and whose Prior Team did not exercise the first Option Year to extend such Contract for a third Season or whose Prior Team did not exercise its second Option Year to extend such Contract for a fourth Season, then any new Player Contract that the player and Team with whom the player was under his Rookie Scale Contract enter into may provide for Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses in the first Salary Cap Year of up to the Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, that the player would have received for such Salary Cap Year had his Prior Team exercised its first or second Option Year (as applicable)."

The only thing mentioned here is "Prior Team," nothing about if a new team would be bound to the same restriction.

An interesting note is that - in the Rivers case - the "Prior Team" did not decline his option. The Pelicans declined it, then he was traded to the Clippers. It stands to reason that the Prior Team designation was likely traded with him a la Bird Rights, but there are definitely some vagueities here.

Basically it sounds like we can only offer the 3rd-year amount, and will hold Early Bird Rights so we could exceed the cap to do so, but it looks like other teams may not be bound to that restriction.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[spaceballer]

^^Thanks for the correction!

[Snidely FC]

Lamar is right that we can't offer him more than the amount he was set to make.
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Then I figure he's as good as gone.

He has been an endless source of entertainment this year, but for me watching him just went from, "hey maybe we found something," to, "this just sucks the Hornets screwed up again."

Hornets need to send a ringer to pick a fight with him at a strip club some time around April. Maybe UNCNYC would volunteer?

[UNCNYC]

Lamar is right that we can't offer him more than the amount he was set to make.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Then I figure he's as good as gone.

He has been an endless source of entertainment this year, but for me watching him just went from, "hey maybe we found something," to, "this just sucks the Hornets screwed up again."

Hornets need to send a ringer to pick a fight with him at a strip club some time around April. Maybe UNCNYC would volunteer?

bwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[spaceballer]

Lamar is right that we can't offer him more than the amount he was set to make.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Then I figure he's as good as gone.

He has been an endless source of entertainment this year, but for me watching him just went from, "hey maybe we found something," to, "this just sucks the Hornets screwed up again."

Hornets need to send a ringer to pick a fight with him at a strip club some time around April. Maybe UNCNYC would volunteer?

bwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

So that's a "yes"?

[JMAC3]

Didn't the Rockets do this with Chandler Parson tho? They declined his option and he was able to sign a bigger deal, but they could of resigned. They just didnt match the offer Dallas made, which was far higher than his option would of been.

Was that a different situation?

[spaceballer]

Didn't the Rockets do this with Chandler Parson tho? They declined his option and he was able to sign a bigger deal, but they could of resigned. They just didnt match the offer Dallas made, which was far higher than his option would of been.

Was that a different situation?

Parsons was a 2nd round pick, for whom there is no standard rookie scale contract structure.

PJ Hairston is a 1st round pick on a CBA specified rookie scale contract structure (with multiple team option years, set salaries according to draft position, etc.).

[UNCNYC]

Then I figure he's as good as gone.

He has been an endless source of entertainment this year, but for me watching him just went from, "hey maybe we found something," to, "this just sucks the Hornets screwed up again."

Hornets need to send a ringer to pick a fight with him at a strip club some time around April. Maybe UNCNYC would volunteer?

bwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

So that's a "yes"?

As my girl says to me sometimes when I ask her a question. "YOU DAMN RIGHT" lol