Should Ryan Mcdonough be fired?

[Revived]

Ryan McD getting HAMMERED on the GB

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1420012#start_here

I'm not gonna lie, most of them actually make good points too.

[AtheJ415]

The thing is, if the Lakers pick end up been a top5 pick this season or a top5-10 next year, is it worth it the difference between Thomas and Knight (plus Cleveland's pick), because that is the big failure there.

It would all depend on who that pick ended up being. Could be a Thabett. This board has been crying "Tank for _____" for the last four years. Each of those years we could have drafted that somebody with our normal pick. It started with Perry Jones, then Shabazz, then Noel. The draft is a crapshoot. And then it also depends on who is picked with the Cleveland pick. Later picks turn out well at times like Jimmy Buttler. I agree that a higher pick with a GM like McD should yield a better player, but Len was a top five pick, and he is just as inconsistent as anyone on our team. So what I'm saying is it will take a while to judge that trade, and we can't make that judgement just by where the picks end up in number.

Yeah. There is no logic to the "you must get a top pick to draft a star" storyline. It's just not true. There are countless ones drafted in the dreaded 14th pick area or later. It's obviously better to have a higher pick and get your choice of a larger pool of players, and it's huge to get a 1st pick when a can't miss talent is available, but that's not likely what we traded.

[toucansma]

I have soured on McD since the last offseason. Initially I loved when he got the job, as he had a very solid background, was speaking very well, etc... But this asset hoarding mentality along with the 2 pg crap has gotten out of hand a bit, and so far I do not see evidence that he is learning (learned) from these situations.
We can look at each case differently, and make up excuses for him - and some of those are really legit - but if there is so much turmoil and bad remarks from players/previous players towards the management it just reeks bad business after a while. Where there is smoke there is fire...
I think he has one-two more seasons, depending on the outcome of this Kief situation, the development of our team (especially the young guys-his draft picks), and the "outcome" of some previous trades (hello lakers pick).
If we don't take steps forward in a season or two, or we'll have another case like Dragic/IT/Morri/Frye/Bledsoe, then I will want him gone asap.

His 2 PG "wish" might be just based on what he sees talent wise around the league. Right now there are more good to very good PGs than SGs. Players that may been that 2-3 in the past, now seem to gravitate towards 3-4(stretch) in systems. So if more talented SGs come into the league he might not be as big on the concept in the future.

I just don't understand why people call Knight a PG at this point. He's not. He's a 2 guard through and through. When we are healthy, he plays very little PG. Bledsoe is our PG.

He should be an SG, but he has been a PG in that he was often initiating the offense even with Bled out there. The problem is Bled's setup skills are not great either, so they have been rotating between each other as the initiator. Neither have done a superb job with that aspect.

[NiqtheAntiq]

Suns had no chance in the West this year anyway. Even if they made the playoffs they would get a 4-1 series out of a team like Dallas or LA

They need to create some kind of big three and let them gel while the Spurs and Warriors are still contending. Its not really a big deal they are doing bad and losing Bledsoe and being exposed might help management figure out what is fundamentally wrong with this team. Also there was no way LMA was going to be in a Suns jersey as they were a worse treadmill than Portland. I have no idea who thought that would ACTUALLY happen. He wasn't what this team needed anyway.

Hornacek does good with taking limited talent and making a presentable team like the 48 win team a few years back but he aint gonna take you to 67 wins. Alof of teams slept on the Suns but their weaknesses are exposed and they don't have a Curry or Thompson to mask those. Their supposed Draymond Green like enforcer/spacer in Morris has given up on this team's philosophy.

Warren,Len,Booker are still young and could help via trade net the third link to make this team into a contender next year. Hornacek needs to go this offseason not because he is a bad coach( maybe too old school) but because the Suns need a true figurehead/presence/winner who can lead them into the 3 ball era. Ray Allen perhaps? Hornacek was always the third wheel on Jazz teams who never could win the championship against Jordan and Hornacek never stepped up in either Finals series. Players know that in the back of their mind. Ray Allen has been a star/clutch/champion/celebrity. Hornacek has not.

[AtheJ415]

His 2 PG "wish" might be just based on what he sees talent wise around the league. Right now there are more good to very good PGs than SGs. Players that may been that 2-3 in the past, now seem to gravitate towards 3-4(stretch) in systems. So if more talented SGs come into the league he might not be as big on the concept in the future.

I just don't understand why people call Knight a PG at this point. He's not. He's a 2 guard through and through. When we are healthy, he plays very little PG. Bledsoe is our PG.

He should be an SG, but he has been a PG in that he was often initiating the offense even with Bled out there. The problem is Bled's setup skills are not great either, so they have been rotating between each other as the initiator. Neither have done a superb job with that aspect.

I think a guy running a pick and roll with the primary intent to score is a SG even if he is dribbling the ball up. I see a PG as running the offense moreso than initiating the offense, if that makes sense. I don't think we have Knight run the offense very often. Although our offense is so ill-constructed that it's hard to tell.

Bled's not elite at passing, but he's way better than he gets credit for on here, and has improved his assist % every year.

[SarcasticSun]

Let's see how McD handles the markieff situation first. Also the guy can draft, outside of the Ennis pick I think he has made good draft choices. One could argue that drafting is the most important part of building a franchise and I beeline that to be true. Given how much I like his drafts, I would be disappointed to lose McDonough.

[bwgood77]

[quote="SarcasticSun"]Let's see how McD handles the markieff situation first. Also the guy can draft, outside of the Ennis pick I think he has made good draft choices. One could argue that drafting is the most important part of building a franchise and I beeline that to be true. Given how much I like his drafts, I would be disappointed to lose McDonough.[/quote
Yeah, I'd rather keep him. I'd rather keep him and Hornacek at least for another year, though I'd be really surprised if Hornacek makes it, but I think with a healthy roster and no Kieff (and an upgrade there) or Tucker, along with more Booker/Warren/Len experience, he could do good things.

I just think a reset again could set us back more.

[Frank Lee]

Every time I think about that I have to watch the video. That just makes me laugh.

That is what upsets me so much. Do you think we went after Chandler because of $arver?

(Since he wants to get into the playoffs = more $$$ to fill his pockets because the money purse that comes with getting into the show)

For sure. I also am not entirely sure we trade the pick for Knight if Sarver didn't say something like "we don't need THAT many young guys and picks! We need players who can play now!" At least he isn't selling our own picks any more.

jeezus.... this is the biggest crawl up McDuh's rump and wiggle blame deflection I've seen to date. You have out done yourself. No one can touch your 'hampstering' talents. You really believe things like this?

Bad enough to get the smug know it all, condescending rebuttals, and futuristic reassurances, whenever anyone questions the direction of the team. (Hats off to the torch carriers who haven't given in to the rosy glassers). King Midas McDuh knows what he is doing. Or does he? He has drafted 3 guys that appear to have a future with us... two have been dubbed All Stars already, and our dominate big man got demoted by an old man. But thats apparently on Sarver too. Just so we could get a sister kiss chasing LMA. That almosts feel good. (but please, stop the Bogdan praise/penciled in starter. He's the new hopethrob of the Goodwhiners)

From what I have seen.. McDuh has done OK drafting... and we do have a few extra late picks... our best one, aside from the one we are cruising towards, doesn't drop till 2021.... thats uh... 5 yrs from now Mc has made one really good trade, some so so-ers, and a couple of WTFs. But he has poorly managed the personnel here and screwed the pooch in free agency. Certainly there is a question with his coach selection, as well as this love affair with multiple combo guards.

Frankly, all his efforts over the past three years, puts us almost back on page one. He's all in with Knight, and for his and our sake, we'd better hope the 2 of the three draftees come through. And Bled ??? you really think he will re-up with us. I don't see it.

King Midas? More like Prince Pyrite to me. He has a lot of unfinished work to do.

So Yeah... I am still around, still eyeball games and this site. Was holding off till the new year and hopefully a roster shuffle, but the
nutless wonders in the FO can't even muster up enough balljuice to tell Morris to stay home till further notice. Pathetic. My guess, very few GMs would tolerate MoBro being around to sour the troops. Might be why he is still here. Oh well... I don't know what to expect anymore, especially after hearing a few of McDuh's BS pressers. Carry on Bgwood... I'll be watching.

more suitable for you?

No, the second pic was inappropriate as well in a public forum.

[thamadkant]

I truely believe McD is being pressured by Suns ownership and board group to make the playoffs.


The Dragic trade was good....

The Knight trade... it looked good earlier... But now... im having doubts. Thomas also playing real well... 21 ppg and 6apg.... For 7 million a year. Defense wise... Knight is bigger but impact is the same as Thomas.... Right now Thomas looks better.

[bwgood77]

That is what upsets me so much. Do you think we went after Chandler because of $arver?

(Since he wants to get into the playoffs = more $$$ to fill his pockets because the money purse that comes with getting into the show)

For sure. I also am not entirely sure we trade the pick for Knight if Sarver didn't say something like "we don't need THAT many young guys and picks! We need players who can play now!" At least he isn't selling our own picks any more.

jeezus.... this is the biggest crawl up McDuh's rump and wiggle blame deflection I've seen to date. You have out done yourself. No one can touch your 'hampstering' talents. You really believe things like this?

Bad enough to get the smug know it all, condescending rebuttals, and futuristic reassurances, whenever anyone questions the direction of the team. (Hats off to the torch carriers who haven't given in to the rosy glassers). King Midas McDuh knows what he is doing. Or does he? He has drafted 3 guys that appear to have a future with us... two have been dubbed All Stars already, and our dominate big man got demoted by an old man. But thats apparently on Sarver too. Just so we could get a sister kiss chasing LMA. That almosts feel good. (but please, stop the Bogdan praise/penciled in starter. He's the new hopethrob of the Goodwhiners)

From what I have seen.. McDuh has done OK drafting... and we do have a few extra late picks... our best one, aside from the one we are cruising towards, doesn't drop till 2021.... thats uh... 5 yrs from now Mc has made one really good trade, some so so-ers, and a couple of WTFs. But he has poorly managed the personnel here and screwed the pooch in free agency. Certainly there is a question with his coach selection, as well as this love affair with multiple combo guards.

Frankly, all his efforts over the past three years, puts us almost back on page one. He's all in with Knight, and for his and our sake, we'd better hope the 2 of the three draftees come through. And Bled ??? you really think he will re-up with us. I don't see it.

King Midas? More like Prince Pyrite to me. He has a lot of unfinished work to do.

So Yeah... I am still around, still eyeball games and this site. Was holding off till the new year and hopefully a roster shuffle, but the
nutless wonders in the FO can't even muster up enough balljuice to tell Morris to stay home till further notice. Pathetic. My guess, very few GMs would tolerate MoBro being around to sour the troops. Might be why he is still here. Oh well... I don't know what to expect anymore, especially after hearing a few of McDuh's BS pressers. Carry on Bgwood... I'll be watching.

I think you have me wrong here. I am far from a McD apologist, but it all starts with Sarver. McD had been terrible at times in knowing how to deal with players, and some of his deals have not been great.

But I think Sarver creates a lot of this with his win now at all costs mentality.

Are you really high on Sarver?

[Frank Lee]

I don't think he is as involved as many believe. But I think the front office as a whole is sucking wind right now. This was a bad off season that followed a mediocre one. Things are not working out like they envisioned on paper.

I have little to no interest except in our Wee Three.

[thamadkant]

McD's contract is to expire soon right?
Just picturing it from his perspective....
He signed on, when the Suns just won 23 games. I recall him stating he has a long term plan.
I'm no apologist, but I am just trying to put things in perspective to what he SAID THEN, and what has HAPPENED until today.

You got to be hiding under a rock to not notice the drastic change in direction in just 2.5 years. From Day 1 of him jumping on board, until the last off season... its almost black and white.



So lets say, the ownership, the same ownership who I BLAME for the change of direction, doesnt extend McD. They hire another guy... now this guy comes in, cleans house. Now... 2 scenarios.
(1) Suns tank hard.... game ticket sales tanks, TV ratings tank... merchandise tanks...
We all know Sarver likes MONEY, he is a banker and he likes income flowing through. When that stops... he puts pressure on the GENERAL MANAGER to start winning games. Other owners have a long term vision, to me Sarver only looks at the financial year bottom line year to year.


(2) Suns surprise and win more than they should, De Ja friggin Vu.... the ownership group calls the GM... tells him to BUILD on the success and try to make the playoffs ASAP... ITS F$%KING cycle.






McD... has talent... that is, drafting... finding diamonds in the rough. GREAT for a rebuilding team, which the SUNS are.
LOOK, I too bought in to the HYPE just this past off season... I was actually convinced the Suns MAY make the playoffs.... but thats just me judging the team on paper. In reality, the Suns are full of MISFITS.... again... a trait for a rebuilding team.


What I'm getting at... is the Suns Ownership dictates the direction. You can have Popovic as Coach and RC Buford as GM... but if you give them bosses that meddle and wants to influence the direction and are driven by CASH income... then you will get a half-a$$ built team.


The ownership group, GM and Front office for ONE... need to AGREE 100% on a 5 year plan. And are FULLY committed to fulfil that 5 year plan. Only the MOST exceptional cases can they change that plan (Superstar MVP player forcing a trade to the team etc.)
I've been involved with projects and the best ones are the ones where EVERYONE, every stake holder accepts the plan, ensures everything goes according to the agreed plan. I've also seen projects where it went over the schedule and over budget... and those projects are the ones where stakeholders and key factions of the project makes changes to the plan.



Lakers... the DAMN Lakers are committed to the tank... they even convinced Kobe friggin Bryant to accept it.




Yet, I am hearing from Babby and Suns FO about PLAYOFFS..... when the team is CLEARLY 3-4 steps behind the real playoff teams.


When Babby was moved to an "Advisor" role... I thought McD was allowed to do what he wants again. But then I hear rumors, Sarver doesnt want McD to sell low on Morris.....

THINGS like that... are holding the team back.

You need the ownership to back off... you need them ON BOARD. You need them to accept the losses that a rebuilding team will go through financially....

[Frank Lee]

I truely believe McD is being pressured by Suns ownership and board group to make the playoffs.

well of course...There is no shame in that. they have ponied up some hefty contracts to win. They spent 14 mill on Knight, another 13+ on Chandler... Went out and dropped 6 on Telly... This is on the heels of 6 mill to Tuckee and 14 to Bled, 8 to MoBro

Thats over 60 million ... for what ? Philly is just a little worse for almost half that.

It is a business after all.

The Dragic trade was good....

Just stop it.... the fact that they HAD to deal him was wrong in the first place... Then get a 2017 top uh...what 7 or 10 protected and a 2021 1st... GD it.. 2021... thats 5 years from now. How does that help replace what we lost? Its a set back until whenever. Call it a win to get that for a departing Dragic but you can't look at that deal in a vacuum...And if Miami hadn't been in the WIN NOW phase with Wade, they don't do that deal. We got lucky. That deal cost us a draft pick too... the fLake #1

It just bugs me, the best this team has played in the past 5 yrs was when Bled and Dragic were the Dynamic Duo. To crapcan that rather than build on it was a stupid move. Yeah yeah yeah... look how bad Dragic is playing, look how much he makes blah blah blah. Point is, look what he was doing here. And look what is going on now. IMO, that was the beginning of downfall as McDuh went into damage control trying to fill the voids....and semi panicked.

but I regress....

[thamadkant]

Dragic at 17 million dollars a year for 4-5 years is TERRIBLE for the Suns.

If the Suns already had a COMPLETE team to run for the playoffs... SURE... bank away.
Had Dragic been 3-4 years younger... SURE, bank away also.

But Signing Dragic to a HUGE contract when the team was under cleanup mode... was a RISKY move and to get 2 picks from him after HE came out to the media and demanded a trade. F^&k that guy. Had he kept everything under wraps, the Suns could of gotten more.


I agree... about the Lakers pick... I agree about the Knight trade that also traded away Thomas, who is outplaying Knight at 50% the cost. I agree with those things Frank. But I dont agree with the Dragic thing. Dragic forced the FO to sell low because he wanted out ASAP because he was sooking about his stats dropping.

[bwgood77]

I don't think he is as involved as many believe. But I think the front office as a whole is sucking wind right now. This was a bad off season that followed a mediocre one. Things are not working out like they envisioned on paper.

I have little to no interest except in our Wee Three.

Well I have blamed the FO quite a bit...the only thing I think they have done pretty well on is the lotto picks. I guess I like Len more than most, and I definitely like Booker and Warren.

I don't necessarily think Sarver meddles a ton in everything, but I think he does demand playoffs. This seems apparent. With GM and coach in final year or two in contracts, they might make more quick judgement decisions.

I understand this goes with most every team....but I do think if you are going to properly rebuild, it should be with patience, and not short sighted moves, and many moves seem short sighted. Had we gotten Aldridge, who knows? But that was a $52 million gamble. I thought Chandler might be the mentor the team needs, and perhaps he has helped Len, but this FO, along with ownership, seems to put all their chips on the table when they have a pair of fours.

[Sun Scorched]

I thought this past off-season was solid. Had we landed LMA, this probably wouldn't even be a thread. The fact that we had a legitimate shot at LaMarcus was huge and, in my opinion, a testament to McD.

LaMarcus would have been our biggest free agent signing since Nash. Let that sink in. And we were *this* close.

[saintEscaton]

I thought this past off-season was solid. Had we landed LMA, this probably wouldn't even be a thread. The fact that we had a legitimate shot at LaMarcus was huge and, in my opinion, a testament to McD.

LaMarcus would have been our biggest free agent signing since Nash. Let that sink in. And we were *this* close.

You can take consolationand rest your laurel upon being the side chick that got spurned for the big fish. Its not gunna be a selling point to lure in any future FAs of the same caliber. "Almost" doesn't cut it. Who knows if we ever in serious consideration for him as frontrunners, its all baseless speculation in retrospect to ease the burn. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. But whatever gets you through the night

[8on]

i've been having a minor change of heart......

let's grade him.

Drafted Alex Len
Grade so far: B

Drafted Archie Goodwin
Grade (for the end of the first round): B

Acquired Gerald Green, Eric Bledsoe
Grade: A+

Signed Isaiah Thomas
Grade: C-

Acquired Brandan Wright
Grade (since the pick doesn't seem to be going to Boston): B

Traded Goran Dragic for two unprotected 1st's
Grade: A based on the trade, but C because we had to. So, overall a B

Traded Isaiah Thomas for Marcus Thornton and Cleveland's 1st
Grade: C

Traded Lakers pick, Miles Plumlee and Tyler Ennis for Brandon Knight
Grade: A? B? B+? i have no idea......leaving this one blank

Traded Andrew Harrison for Jon Leuer
Grade: A+

Drafted T.J. Warren and Devin Booker
Grade: A+


So.....

85+85+100+70+85+85+75+100+100=785
785/9=87.222 B+

Would you give him a B+? I think that's fair. Not an A.....not yet, but a B+.

[8on]

I will say this. The situation we had coming into 2014-15 was extremely fragile. I've heard rumblings that Dragic wanted to be the only PG. We signed Zoran to appease him. Bledsoe had a history of injury, so we took a chance on signing Isaiah so that we'd have a backup plan. Also, he was a restricted free agent. What if he bailed on us? We'd be back to square one.

Balancing Goran's ego, Bledsoe's contract and his injury history, Frye's age and winning? That's something most teams don't have to deal with. Considering all that, I think we got out of it pretty cleanly.

[Puff]

Dragic at 17 million dollars a year for 4-5 years is TERRIBLE for the Suns.

If the Suns already had a COMPLETE team to run for the playoffs... SURE... bank away.
Had Dragic been 3-4 years younger... SURE, bank away also.

But Signing Dragic to a HUGE contract when the team was under cleanup mode... was a RISKY move and to get 2 picks from him after HE came out to the media and demanded a trade. F^&k that guy. Had he kept everything under wraps, the Suns could of gotten more.


I agree... about the Lakers pick... I agree about the Knight trade that also traded away Thomas, who is outplaying Knight at 50% the cost. I agree with those things Frank. But I dont agree with the Dragic thing. Dragic forced the FO to sell low because he wanted out ASAP because he was sooking about his stats dropping.

I would much rather have Goran at 17 mil along with IT at 7 along with yes, Gerald Green and Ish Smith. I would also love Booker sharing time with Gerald Green. We at least would be fun to watch.

We now are paying 28 mil for two guards that most fans can't stand to watch play and have the personality of a grape.

Last year when we marginalized both Goran and Green is when this team started falling apart. They were arguably our most productive players from the 48 win season. Goran did not want to be stuck in the corner nor should he have been. He was 3rd team all pro by playing the point. I do not know if that was Hornacek's or McDonough's idea but whoever made the decision screwed up. If we would have just let Bledsoe walk rather than pay him 70 mil, we would be a better team today.

Unfortunately I supported the Bledsoe signing and the Knight trade. I soured on Goran and thought he was a greedy SOB like most everyone else. The Sarver regime always seems to spin every bad move they make in their favor and I buy in. At this point I have zero confidence in this front office and coach. I expect about 95% of the fans have the same feeling.