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Signed By Indiana - The Jeremy Lamb Thread

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#681 » by catch20two » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:18 pm

PG13 wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:
hood30 wrote:While I agree that Lamb needs to improve defensively, but is he really so much worst than PJ?...


No. All stats from advanced individual stats to team stats including defensive ratings and net ratings among others all point towards the team playing better with Lamb on the floor instead of Hairston, and that's with Lamb logging more minutes than Hairston on the season


Would it be the Bench Force One effect and has little to do with Lamb?

I think at this stage from the coach's standpoint it is more important to look at effort than numbers. Need to set the tone for the team for the long-term success.

You say the Bench Force One effect as if Lamb isn't the 1-2 punch of the Bench Force One unit with Lin. The bench doesn't perform that well thru the season without Lamb averaging 11ppg in only 20 minutes per game.
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#682 » by catch20two » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:24 pm

yosemiteben wrote:PJ typically only gets to play against starting units at the beginning of halves, so he regularly has to defend a team's best shooter while that shooter has fresh legs and before the defense is really settled in to the flow of the game. Lamb typically only plays against second units, and even then usually takes the weaker offensive opponent with one of Lin or Marv / Batum taking the more challenging defensive assignment.

The dramatically different contexts in which they are used has to be considered when assessing their defensive effectiveness.

What facts you got to back this nonsense. I've seen Lamb close several games against starters while the Lin mob cried. Do you mean to tell me that those teams didn't close with their starters? Lol
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: RE: Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#683 » by yosemiteben » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:26 pm

catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:PJ typically only gets to play against starting units at the beginning of halves, so he regularly has to defend a team's best shooter while that shooter has fresh legs and before the defense is really settled in to the flow of the game. Lamb typically only plays against second units, and even then usually takes the weaker offensive opponent with one of Lin or Marv / Batum taking the more challenging defensive assignment.

The dramatically different contexts in which they are used has to be considered when assessing their defensive effectiveness.

What facts you got to back this nonsense. I've seen Lamb close several games against starters while the Lin mob cried. Do you mean to tell me that those teams didn't close with their starters? Lol

The fact that he closed "several" of our almost 30 games doesn't disprove my point that he generally only plays against second units. You can't seriously be arguing that he spends as much time against first units as PJ, right?
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#684 » by PG13 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:00 pm

catch20two wrote:
PG13 wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:
No. All stats from advanced individual stats to team stats including defensive ratings and net ratings among others all point towards the team playing better with Lamb on the floor instead of Hairston, and that's with Lamb logging more minutes than Hairston on the season


Would it be the Bench Force One effect and has little to do with Lamb?

I think at this stage from the coach's standpoint it is more important to look at effort than numbers. Need to set the tone for the team for the long-term success.

You say the Bench Force One effect as if Lamb isn't the 1-2 punch of the Bench Force One unit with Lin. The bench doesn't perform that well thru the season without Lamb averaging 11ppg in only 20 minutes per game.


Wait...I thought we're discussing DEFENSE here. Lamb can score, no doubt, but he needs to put in better effort at the other end. Otherwise, Daniels is a better pure scorer. Roberts can score too. This team's identity is defense-oriented. Cliff needs to set the tone.
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Re: RE: Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#685 » by bws94 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:03 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
catch20two wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:PJ typically only gets to play against starting units at the beginning of halves, so he regularly has to defend a team's best shooter while that shooter has fresh legs and before the defense is really settled in to the flow of the game. Lamb typically only plays against second units, and even then usually takes the weaker offensive opponent with one of Lin or Marv / Batum taking the more challenging defensive assignment.

The dramatically different contexts in which they are used has to be considered when assessing their defensive effectiveness.

What facts you got to back this nonsense. I've seen Lamb close several games against starters while the Lin mob cried. Do you mean to tell me that those teams didn't close with their starters? Lol

The fact that he closed "several" of our almost 30 games doesn't disprove my point that he generally only plays against second units. You can't seriously be arguing that he spends as much time against first units as PJ, right?


Lamb closed a handful of games. In most close games it was Kemba, Batum, Lin, Marv and a center closing.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#686 » by TTNN » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:20 pm

Lamb function the best in BF1, and I do think there is a reason, and he work the best when he was playing with Lin together.

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/?PlayerID=203087&VsPlayerID=202391

When you look at the split of Lamb playing with Lin on/off court, the difference is pretty clear. Lamb was shooting 50.3% FG% and 34.3% 3FG% with Lin on court, and only 42.1% FG% and 28.6% 3FG% when Lin is off court.

And to drill down why is that, if you look at this page:

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/scoring?PlayerID=203087&VsPlayerID=202391

That's because when Lamb is playing with Lin, he got 50% of his 2FGM and 87% of his 3FGM were assisted, and when Lin is off court, only 36.7% of his 2FGM and 50% of his 3FGM were assisted. That's a big difference. He had almost 60% of FGM assisted when he was playing with Lin but that dropped to only 40% when he is not.

Usually when he was playing with Lin, that's when he was playing in the second team, and thus he was more featured, and Lin and other bench players are more actively look to set him up, thus he is in a position easier to success. On the other hand, when he was not playing together with Lin, that's usually the time he was playing with the first team line up, and then he is not really featured, and nobody looking to set him up, and thus he need to create for himself, which is much harder to success.

In addition to offensive side, Lamb also defense better in the BF1 (playing together with Lin) too.

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?PlayerID=203087&VsPlayerID=202391

When Lamb is playing with Lin, the DefRtg is a very good 94.1, but when he was playing without Lin, that was a not so good 101.6.

Though I have been using Lin on/off court to split the time, I have not been trying to contribute that difference to Lin though, it was more because that's a pretty good way to define Lamb was playing in the first team vs. second team. However, defensively, I DO think playing with Lin helped a lot of Lamb's defense.

That's due to the way Lin play defense, Lin was pretty aggressive in help defense and playing the passing lane. Lamb's problem in defense are two fold, one is sometime he lost focus in defense thus lost his person, and second was that he was not able to read the play well to response quick enough. However, when he was playing with Lin, he worked very well with Lin as Lin would read the play early and help his guy, and Lamb will need to help to defend Lin's guy by a switch, thus Lin usually is the first in response to defend, and Lamb's secondary defending give his a split second extra in response which helps him in terms of read the play late or lost focus a little. Then Lamb's help defense give Lin extra time to recover to his man, thus between those two, they had a mini zone by switch a lot, and thus cover quite big area there. However, I don't see Lamb develop that kind of team defense with other player on the court in the first team, thus if he had a split second lost focus, he could lost his man, or don't really know where his position should be.

So overall, I feel at this time, Lamb is not yet a really great individual player, he is more of a system player. In order for him to play well, he will need to be taken care of, both offensively and defensively. That's kind of frustrating though, as he is not a player that you could just simply plug in into an situation, and he could navigate and fill in the need.

Unfortunately, Hornets is not a really deep team that we could ignore Lamb's talent, thus I hope coach Clifford would eventually find a situation for Lamb to have a best chance to success. First of all, really limit Lamb's time together with Walker, but play him more with Lin and Batum, whom are actively looking for set Lamb up. Play him more with vet who have patient to take care of him in defensive end and reminds him. And then just be patient for him to grow to have longer focus span and read the play better.

I still think Lamb could grow to a good player when he mature, and he need motivation and drive to be a better player first to be successful.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#687 » by DY_nasty » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:04 pm

Lamb was great running the offense on the 2nd unit when he first got here. Don't know why he or Clifford stopped the horns set he was so good at, but w/e

I was saying from the moment that Lamb and Kemba stepped on the court together that they're a horrible fit. At least as 1-2 compliments. Lamb's gotta work on his off-ball 3 at the 3 imo. Don't know why he doesn't cut more. Best for everyone.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#688 » by Liver_Pooty » Fri Jan 1, 2016 1:35 am

James Harden plays better defense than he does. Its insane.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#689 » by sidestep » Fri Jan 1, 2016 7:27 am

DY_nasty wrote:Lamb was great running the offense on the 2nd unit when he first got here. Don't know why he or Clifford stopped the horns set he was so good at, but w/e

I was saying from the moment that Lamb and Kemba stepped on the court together that they're a horrible fit. At least as 1-2 compliments. Lamb's gotta work on his off-ball 3 at the 3 imo. Don't know why he doesn't cut more. Best for everyone.

It's not just horns; the team basically stopped running sets for Lamb. Such as that around-the-world curl he used to get a lot. It's been like that ever since Lin stopped being the primary ballhandler for the 2nd quarter crew, which is now very mixed with Kemba/Batum. Been like that for...like last 6 games or so. As for horns, I don't see anyone else who gets to do it except Kemba and Batum.

Even if Lamb's shooting % improves, he will never produce like he did earlier in the season because his role has fundamentally changed. And vice-versa, since his role has changed, he cannot produce like before. He is less assisted now.

If there aren't plays to set up Lamb, what does he contribute on the floor that PJ doesn't do better?

As TTNN said above, this roster is not deep so Cliff needs to make use of everything he has, including Lamb.

As for Lamb's D, he is indeed clueless. However, Cliff has a double standard when it comes to defensive mistakes. As I see it, Lamb is the only guy on this roster who is regularly held accountable for making defensive mistakes. Who else is held accountable? Not really anyone else. That's partly because other players, such as Batum, do not have ready replacements, but there is a double standard nevertheless. The pathetic defensive performance of recent games is certainly not because of Lamb alone.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#690 » by bws94 » Fri Jan 1, 2016 4:52 pm

I saw Lamb as the primary scoring option on the 2nd unit, not primary ball handler. Actually, if he's primarily ball-handler he becomes more mistake prone. He seems to be a good rhythm guy and he just has his best chemistry with Lin. They were pretty much having regular lob passes that we don't even see anymore.

But he can play with other guys on the court as well.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#691 » by bws94 » Fri Jan 1, 2016 4:55 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:James Harden plays better defense than he does. Its insane.


Er, I'm not so sure about that one. :lol:
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#692 » by JDR720 » Mon Jan 4, 2016 3:12 pm

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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#693 » by BatumtheGlue » Mon Jan 4, 2016 3:33 pm

bws94 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:James Harden plays better defense than he does. Its insane.


Er, I'm not so sure about that one. :lol:

Well, at least Lamb gave some efforts on the defensive end.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#694 » by Sauce_Castillo » Mon Jan 4, 2016 5:38 pm

I cannot believe we signed this guy to 3 years 21 million. It is extremely difficult for me to understand why we did that without making him show any sort of consistency, as that was a problem in the first place. Lamb was incredible in the month of October:
25.4 Min 12.9 PPG 52% FG % 34% 3 point % 5.3 rebounds 1.5 ast
In December Lamb has been terrible everyone already knows about his liabilties defensively so his struggles offensively just amplifies the harm he is doing to this team. Here are lambs stats for the month of december:
18.2 Min 9.5 PPG 41% FG % 26% 3 point % (horrific) 3.7 rebounds 1.2 ast if you want to break this down even further here are Lambs stats the last 5 games: 20.6 Min 7 PPG 31% FG % 25% 3 point % 4 rebounds 1.6 ast

Really hoping that last month and the beginning of this month are just a shooting slump, but I am afriad I am seeing why OKC did not play him all those years.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#695 » by euphorbus » Mon Jan 4, 2016 7:48 pm

Sauce_Castillo wrote:I cannot believe we signed this guy to 3 years 21 million. It is extremely difficult for me to understand why we did that without making him show any sort of consistency, as that was a problem in the first place. Lamb was incredible in the month of October:
25.4 Min 12.9 PPG 52% FG % 34% 3 point % 5.3 rebounds 1.5 ast
In December Lamb has been terrible everyone already knows about his liabilities defensively so his struggles offensively just amplifies the harm he is doing to this team. Here are lambs stats for the month of December:
18.2 Min 9.5 PPG 41% FG % 26% 3 point % (horrific) 3.7 rebounds 1.2 ast if you want to break this down even further here are Lambs stats the last 5 games: 20.6 Min 7 PPG 31% FG % 25% 3 point % 4 rebounds 1.6 ast

Really hoping that last month and the beginning of this month are just a shooting slump, but I am afraid I am seeing why OKC did not play him all those years.


That's why I said at the time that the signing was a little premature. I think it's unfair to label the contract a bust, except insofar as Lamb still has not improved on defense. He has the physical tools. Perhaps if he sat down with a book or two about how to play defense, and read them during the long flights from city to city, he might get a clue what he was doing. Dean Smith, Basketball: Multiple Offense and Defense would be a good place to start.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#696 » by Joest2003 » Tue Jan 5, 2016 2:04 pm

Sauce_Castillo wrote:I cannot believe we signed this guy to 3 years 21 million. It is extremely difficult for me to understand why we did that without making him show any sort of consistency, as that was a problem in the first place. Lamb was incredible in the month of October:
25.4 Min 12.9 PPG 52% FG % 34% 3 point % 5.3 rebounds 1.5 ast
In December Lamb has been terrible everyone already knows about his liabilties defensively so his struggles offensively just amplifies the harm he is doing to this team. Here are lambs stats for the month of december:
18.2 Min 9.5 PPG 41% FG % 26% 3 point % (horrific) 3.7 rebounds 1.2 ast if you want to break this down even further here are Lambs stats the last 5 games: 20.6 Min 7 PPG 31% FG % 25% 3 point % 4 rebounds 1.6 ast

Really hoping that last month and the beginning of this month are just a shooting slump, but I am afriad I am seeing why OKC did not play him all those years.


Why is it so hard for some people to understand the salary cap is about to sky rocket? 7 mill will be crumbs once his contract actually starts and the salary cap goes up. Shooting slump or not this guy still has the highst fg% among our guards and even some forwards and this is his first year actually getting consistent minutes he is going to improve and eventually out play his contact if anything.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#697 » by LamarMatic7 » Tue Jan 5, 2016 2:27 pm

Contract talk notwithstanding, he had a few beautiful signature floating bank shots last night. I like the bag of tricks he has when finishing around the basket.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#698 » by yosemiteben » Tue Jan 5, 2016 3:41 pm

My biggest problem with Lamb is his inability to generate offense for others. He seems like a longer Jamal Crawford without the elite handles and less of an outside game but a better midrange game. Great instant offense off the bench, but does not put much effort into moving the ball and setting up his teammates. He played 30 minutes last night and only had one assist.

He has significant value in that he can be the guy at the end of the shot clock that can get off a good shot, but he needs major work on his defense, on his perimeter shot (currently averaging 31.3% from three, averaged 26.8% in December), and on his ball movement. Lock him in a room with a healthy Batum and MKG and he will have perfect mentors.
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#699 » by catch20two » Tue Jan 5, 2016 6:52 pm

Lamb's numbers look just as good Lin's but with better efficiency. 8-) 8-) 8-)
They will wage war against the Lamb but the Lamb will triumph them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14 (NIV)
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Re: Rustler - The Jeremy Lamb Thread 

Post#700 » by Snidely FC » Tue Jan 5, 2016 7:22 pm

In addition to Lamb's lack of defensive IQ, I don't think he moves laterally very well. His legs appear weak and sproingy, and he lopes when running, which works on offense, but makes it hard for him to change direction on defense. It just looks like he suffers from joint laxity and his feet are too big. Like a lamb who is never going to grow into a full fledged sheep.

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