KCP = Stuckey

[Cowology]

Yeah, I said it.

He'll string enough good offensive games together that people actually believe he's either turning the corner or has some Butler type offensive potential. Then he'll go back to sucking for a month. Then he'll string another few games together and everybody loses their damn mind and completely forget that we've seen this out of him before. Then he'll go back to sucking.

Don't get me wrong, I know they are completely different players and he is a much better defender, but the more I see of him the less convinced I am that he will ever put it together and do it consistently. And no, I don't care that he just got hot and torched the Wolves. Friggin Flip Murray was dropping 50 on people, that didn't make him Jordan.

[sc8581]

He's averaging over 14ppg on 40% shooting, he is what he is offensively but clearly has a chance to get better. Can't fcuks with his intangibles though

[detroitKG]

He's averaging over 14ppg on 40% shooting, he is what he is offensively but clearly has a chance to get better. Can't fcuks with his intangibles though

Pretty much this..people will continue to btch though..its what they do on these forums..I fully expect his shooting numbers to go up as he ages in the league..

[Cowology]

He's averaging over 14ppg on 40% shooting, he is what he is offensively but clearly has a chance to get better. Can't fcuks with his intangibles though

The problem is that even that "40% shooting" is misleading, because really it's more like 5 games in a row where he shoots 35% and then has 1-2 good games that pull his average up.

I'd actually be happier if he was consistently 40%. Being terrible in 80% of our games and then looking an All-Star in 20% of them isn't really conducive to winning bball.

Just look at the game logs for Dec and you'll see what I mean. He played in 15 games. In 13 of those games he shot a combined .369, but he also had a 10-16 and 9-14 that pushed him over .410 for the month. He's also taking nearly 5 three's a game despite barely shooting 30%. We crucified guys like JSmooth for this, but KCP get's a pass because of his "intangibles". No. Stop shooting bad shots lol

[Todd3]

He's averaging over 14ppg on 40% shooting, he is what he is offensively but clearly has a chance to get better. Can't fcuks with his intangibles though

The problem is that even that "40% shooting" is misleading, because really it's more like 5 games in a row where he shoots 35% and then has 1-2 good games that pull his average up.

I'd actually be happier if he was consistently 40%. Being terrible in 80% of our games and then looking an All-Star in 20% of them isn't really conducive to winning bball.

I remember Dumars had a saying "Give me a guy who I count on for 15 every night over a guy who gives you 25 one night and 10 the next". KCP is basically the latter. Games like tonight show just how great we can be when we get just normal starters production at SG. Everything comes together. If he can do it every game, great, but if not it's in the teams best interest to get someone who can.

Agree on the Stuckey analogy but Stuckey was at least solid most nights, even if not the star we expected. I would take just solid most nights from KCP. Not even asking for all-star numbers. Just consistency so you know what you're getting at that position every night. Its' funny because I was thinking Maxiell as a comparison last night. A guy who gives nothing on offense but always gets more minutes than it feels like he should because he plays hard. Stuckey/Maxiell/Michael Curry all come to mind.

[sc8581]

He's averaging over 14ppg on 40% shooting, he is what he is offensively but clearly has a chance to get better. Can't fcuks with his intangibles though

The problem is that even that "40% shooting" is misleading, because really it's more like 5 games in a row where he shoots 35% and then has 1-2 good games that pull his average up.

I'd actually be happier if he was consistently 40%. Being terrible in 80% of our games and then looking an All-Star in 20% of them isn't really conducive to winning bball.

Just look at the game logs for Dec and you'll see what I mean. He played in 15 games. In 13 of those games he shot a combined .369, but he also had a 10-16 and 9-14 that pushed him over .410 for the month. He's also taking nearly 5 three's a game despite barely shooting 30%. We crucified guys like JSmooth for this, but KCP get's a pass because of his "intangibles". No. Stop shooting bad shots lol

That's most of the league though. I bet if you looked at Drummond's game logs it would be similar, a lot of 40-45% garbage and then a few 60%+ games that pull it up to around 50%. The key is that these two have so many other intangibles, plus they are both only 22 I believe so they still have time to learn and become more consistent. If KCP was hitting 45% of his shots he's a borderline all-star, what is that really though, an extra made bucket a game? It's a fine line

[Cowology]

Wow, totally forgot about JMax. That dude always played better as a starter, but wasn't good enough to actually start. If he could have given us that same production off the bench he woulda been a solid rotation guy.

[ComboGuardCity]

Except KCP is consistent every night. He is an elite wing defender. Just because he's not an elite offensive threat every night doesn't mean he's not consistent. Shooting guards who are every night 20ppg scorers exist but they are considered superstars. You can't have a superstar at every position.

[Snakebites]

Yeah, I said it.

He'll string enough good offensive games together that people actually believe he's either turning the corner or has some Butler type offensive potential. Then he'll go back to sucking for a month. Then he'll string another few games together and everybody loses their damn mind and completely forget that we've seen this out of him before. Then he'll go back to sucking.

Don't get me wrong, I know they are completely different players and he is a much better defender, but the more I see of him the less convinced I am that he will ever put it together and do it consistently. And no, I don't care that he just got hot and torched the Wolves. Friggin Flip Murray was dropping 50 on people, that didn't make him Jordan.

I have been scratching my head as to why KCP has so much support here despite the overwhelming evidence that he isn't starter material.

You might have explained it. Thanks.

[Cowology]

Except KCP is consistent every night. He is an elite wing defender. Just because he's not an elite offensive threat every night doesn't mean he's not consistent. Shooting guards who are every night 20ppg scorers exist but they are considered superstars. You can't have a superstar at every position.

Where did I say I expected him to be elite offensively every night? Where did I say he needed to average 20ppg or be a superstar? And why is that every time somebody tries to have a discussion about his lack of offense, somebody else has to try and turn the conversation towards defense? Are we not allowed to have this conversation because he's good defensively? Does it somehow make him exempt from criticism?

What I AM saying is that his lack of consistency is holding him back and I'm not convinced that will ever change. I'd take 14-15 ppg out of him if he could do it consistently and with better efficiency. I'm OK with him being a role player. Hell, I'd take 12 ppg out of him if he just stuck to knocking down corner 3's. I love me some Bruce Bowen.

[coordinator0]

I might be in the minority, but I'm not ready to say Caldwell-Pope has reached his peak at 22 and won't get better.

[ComboGuardCity]

Except KCP is consistent every night. He is an elite wing defender. Just because he's not an elite offensive threat every night doesn't mean he's not consistent. Shooting guards who are every night 20ppg scorers exist but they are considered superstars. You can't have a superstar at every position.

Where did I say I expected him to be elite offensively every night? Where did I say he needed to average 20ppg or be a superstar? And why is that every time somebody tries to have a discussion about his lack of offense, somebody else has to try and turn the conversation towards defense? Are we not allowed to have this conversation because he's good defensively? Does it somehow make him exempt from criticism?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said he was exempt from criticism. I'm just refuting your point of "he goes back to sucking". You never qualified this was a conversation about solely offense.

[Cowology]

Except KCP is consistent every night. He is an elite wing defender. Just because he's not an elite offensive threat every night doesn't mean he's not consistent. Shooting guards who are every night 20ppg scorers exist but they are considered superstars. You can't have a superstar at every position.

Where did I say I expected him to be elite offensively every night? Where did I say he needed to average 20ppg or be a superstar? And why is that every time somebody tries to have a discussion about his lack of offense, somebody else has to try and turn the conversation towards defense? Are we not allowed to have this conversation because he's good defensively? Does it somehow make him exempt from criticism?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said he was exempt from criticism. I'm just refuting your point of "he goes back to sucking". You never qualified this was a conversation about solely offense.

Really? That's what my entire initial post was about.

[Snakebites]

His offense is bad enough to make him a very weak starter regardless of what he does defensively, so I'm not convinced just saying he "goes back to sucking" is unfair even without the "on offense" qualifier.

He's below whatever the basketball version of the Mendoza line is, and even if he's not its not as though he's a Gary Payton level defender that might somewhat justify his offensive woes.

[Arp590]

I might be in the minority, but I'm not ready to say Caldwell-Pope has reached his peak at 22 and won't get better.

Exactly.
Aaron Afflalo? Khris Midleton?
How many times are we going to give up on our young players only to see them succeed elsewhere?

[ComboGuardCity]

Where did I say I expected him to be elite offensively every night? Where did I say he needed to average 20ppg or be a superstar? And why is that every time somebody tries to have a discussion about his lack of offense, somebody else has to try and turn the conversation towards defense? Are we not allowed to have this conversation because he's good defensively? Does it somehow make him exempt from criticism?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said he was exempt from criticism. I'm just refuting your point of "he goes back to sucking". You never qualified this was a conversation about solely offense.

Really? That's what my entire initial post was about.

Was raja bell a below average starter? Tony Allen? Shane Battier? Bruce Bowen? Thabo? KCP is a better offensive player than all of those guys. Just because he's being asked to carry a stronger offensive load on a currently mediocre team doesn't make him below average.

[sc8581]

He's 15th among all SGs in real +/-

[Snakebites]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said he was exempt from criticism. I'm just refuting your point of "he goes back to sucking". You never qualified this was a conversation about solely offense.

Really? That's what my entire initial post was about.

Was raja bell a below average starter? Tony Allen? Shane Battier? Bruce Bowen? Thabo? KCP is a better offensive player than all of those guys. Just because he's being asked to carry a stronger offensive load on a currently mediocre team doesn't make him below average.

Lets go through those one by one:

Raja Bell= Could hit threes well enough to justify even if he was offensively limited overall. He was an average starter who found a niche. Lets not forget KCP is a sub 30% three point shooter. He can't spread the floor at all.

Shane Battier= Ditto. Miami version was only a viable starter in a Lebron/Bosh/Wade/who cares who they are as long as they hit threes model. Nothing like what we have here.

Bruce Bowen= I'm just repeating myself at this point. This one to a far more extreme degree. This guy hit threes at a 40% clip and we wish KCP was as good defensively!

Tony Allen= Higher defensive impact at his peak, only really justifiable on a team that is kind of an old school way of building a team revolving around front court post scoring. We have nothing like the team the Grizzlies needed to cover for his offensive limitations.

[ComboGuardCity]

Really? That's what my entire initial post was about.

Was raja bell a below average starter? Tony Allen? Shane Battier? Bruce Bowen? Thabo? KCP is a better offensive player than all of those guys. Just because he's being asked to carry a stronger offensive load on a currently mediocre team doesn't make him below average.

Lets go through those one by one:

Raja Bell= Could hit threes well enough to justify even if he was offensively limited overall. He was an average starter who found a niche.

Shane Battier= Ditto. Miami version was only a viable starter in a Lebron/Bosh/Wade/who cares who they are as long as they hit threes model. Nothing like what we have here.

Bruce Bowen= I'm just repeating myself at this point. This one to a far more extreme degree. This guy hit threes at a 40% clip and we wish KCP was as good defensively!

Tony Allen= Higher defensive impact at his peak, only really justifiable on a team that is kind of an old school way of building a team revolving around front court post scoring.

And none of those guys were asked to take on the offensive load KCP has. He's either the 3rd or 4th option on a consistent basis. All those guys were 5s or less. Put KCP in Raja's role and I bet his percentages increases and nobody disputes he's a good starter.

[Snakebites]

Was raja bell a below average starter? Tony Allen? Shane Battier? Bruce Bowen? Thabo? KCP is a better offensive player than all of those guys. Just because he's being asked to carry a stronger offensive load on a currently mediocre team doesn't make him below average.

Lets go through those one by one:

Raja Bell= Could hit threes well enough to justify even if he was offensively limited overall. He was an average starter who found a niche.

Shane Battier= Ditto. Miami version was only a viable starter in a Lebron/Bosh/Wade/who cares who they are as long as they hit threes model. Nothing like what we have here.

Bruce Bowen= I'm just repeating myself at this point. This one to a far more extreme degree. This guy hit threes at a 40% clip and we wish KCP was as good defensively!

Tony Allen= Higher defensive impact at his peak, only really justifiable on a team that is kind of an old school way of building a team revolving around front court post scoring.

And none of those guys were asked to take on the offensive load KCP has. He's either the 3rd or 4th option on a consistent basis. All those guys were 5s or less. Put KCP in Raja's role and I bet his percentages increases and nobody disputes he's a good starter.

Absolutely. Once we acquire multiple all stars will killer offensive games we can totally use KCP as a viable starter like the Thunder used Thabo, the Heat used Battier, the Suns used bell. Or I suppose we can totally remake our roster to become an old school, grind it out team like the Grizzlies.

Once that happens KCP is all set to go!