Should Ryan Mcdonough be fired?

[NavLDO]

Yes he should be fired!

There should be a thing called ACCOUNTABILITY!

Its McDs job and responsibility to field a competitive roster and yet after 3 years, we are worse off than where we started. Our win record is actually regressing year by year.

I don't want to hear how he drafts great or its just chemistry problem etc etc. As of now, all he has to show for after 3 years is a mish-mashed dysfunctional team. There should be no excuses. He needs to go!

How in the world are we worse off than when we started? This team with Dudley, Gortat, Scola, and the laker picks is the #30 team in the league for the foreseeable future. The only upside is if we sucked enough, and then got lucky enough with higher odds, to somehow get the top picks in each of the past 3 drafts, which is still amazingly unlikely.

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),

This is the first we are hearing about an ankle sprain, but Leuer's owners should stick with him until we learn the severity of the issue.

A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Re: tanking. I can almost certainly guarantee the Suns won't do it. I think they're very confident in their scouting department to pick up very good players no matter their draft position. The benefit of a couple additional draft spots is far less than the benefit to the team (and the perceived value of the players on the team) than winning games.

Like everyone else, I've been perplexed by the inconsistency of their moves. Trading so many assets for Knight was dubious at the time, though I think it probably netted us Chandler as well (and yes, I still think he's an asset). I think we could have traded Keef for value this summer and Green the previous summer - we saw the logjam and the discontentment but held out, even though we had to know these guys weren't part of our long-term plans. The same could arguably be said for Plumlee. I don't understand the Brandan Wright move to this day - quite the gamble for what was never going to be much of a payoff. Sometimes I wonder if we're trying to build a reputation as a FO that won't simply give away assets, but then we basically gave away Isiah Thomas, so...

Going forward, I think it's Bled who needs to be moved. I hope the meniscus issues won't decrease his value dramatically. I just fear that this FO waits for everything to fall apart before they move their assets. If our eyes are really on trying to win a championship, we shouldn't be waiting so long to move our guys - wasted seasons, wasted development, wasted assets. Focus on the guys who will be here when we win it.

[NavLDO]

I truely believe McD is being pressured by Suns ownership and board group to make the playoffs.

well of course...There is no shame in that. they have ponied up some hefty contracts to win. They spent 14 mill on Knight, another 13+ on Chandler... Went out and dropped 6 on Telly... This is on the heels of 6 mill to Tuckee and 14 to Bled, 8 to MoBro

Thats over 60 million ... for what ? Philly is just a little worse for almost half that.

It is a business after all.

The Dragic trade was good....

Just stop it.... the fact that they HAD to deal him was wrong in the first place... Then get a 2017 top uh...what 7 or 10 protected and a 2021 1st... GD it.. 2021... thats 5 years from now. How does that help replace what we lost? Its a set back until whenever. Call it a win to get that for a departing Dragic but you can't look at that deal in a vacuum...And if Miami hadn't been in the WIN NOW phase with Wade, they don't do that deal. We got lucky. That deal cost us a draft pick too... the fLake #1

It just bugs me, the best this team has played in the past 5 yrs was when Bled and Dragic were the Dynamic Duo. To crapcan that rather than build on it was a stupid move. Yeah yeah yeah... look how bad Dragic is playing, look how much he makes blah blah blah. Point is, look what he was doing here. And look what is going on now. IMO, that was the beginning of downfall as McDuh went into damage control trying to fill the voids....and semi panicked.

but I regress....

You know what bugs me Frank? Is you calling out all the McD 'apologists', yet can't see the fact that you are more of a Dragic apologist than all of us 'so-called' McD apologists combined.

You complain about the $13M and $14M contracts we gave Knight and Chandler, yet would've been fine giving Dragic a $17M per contract to keep him here, yet he's worse than both Knight and Chandler have been over the past 60 games in the NBA.

You say the dynamic duo of Bledsoe and Dragic was so fantastic, yet fail to give credit to the one that 1) built it and 2) coached it, and fail to recognize that the REAL reason Dragic was bent out of shape was Bledsoe, NOT Thomas. So trading Thomas would still have resulted in the same situation--Dragic either crying here because of Bledsoe, or crying somewhere else, because the fact of the matter is--Dragic isn't very good anymore, and BTW, it isn't his fault. LOL!!

So keep a comin' with the McD apologist junk, but just know that everyone can see exactly what I stated above--you are just as much of a Dragic apologist as any of us are a McD apologist. Hate to tell you Frank, but the 'assets' we received in the Dragic trade are worth more than Dragic at this point--heck, ZERO return is worth more than paying a 29 YO, 13 PER PG $17M per year for the next 4+ years...

...and oh look, here's Dragic crying again about whatever he can grasp on to in order to attempt to explain away his issues--and shockingly enough, it's somebody else's fault again...

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/miami-heat-goran-dragic-fourth-quarter-offense-isn-t-pleased-123115

[NavLDO]

Re: tanking. I can almost certainly guarantee the Suns won't do it. I think they're very confident in their scouting department to pick up very good players no matter their draft position. The benefit of a couple additional draft spots is far less than the benefit to the team (and the perceived value of the players on the team) than winning games. -- Maybe, maybe not, but the issue is, we'll never know their true intentions. I have no doubt they have little fear about the scouting dept being able to pick up quality talent, but don't you think that might be tempting to pick a little higher?

Like everyone else, I've been perplexed by the inconsistency of their moves. Trading so many assets for Knight was dubious at the time, though I think it probably netted us Chandler as well (and yes, I still think he's an asset). I think we could have traded Keef for value this summer and Green the previous summer - we saw the logjam and the discontentment but held out, even though we had to know these guys weren't part of our long-term plans. The same could arguably be said for Plumlee. I don't understand the Brandan Wright move to this day - quite the gamble for what was never going to be much of a payoff. Sometimes I wonder if we're trying to build a reputation as a FO that won't simply give away assets, but then we basically gave away Isiah Thomas, so... -- I agree, I think that is the reputation that McD would like to exhibit. But the issue with IT is, he's only viewed as an asset to certain teams/GMs. IT's market, I have no doubt, was much smaller than the average player (excuse the pun). McD likely put himself in a 'pickle' when he acquired IT, and may not have looked forward into what the consequences might be if things didn't work out. And yes, lookey there, I criticized McD...

Going forward, I think it's Bled who needs to be moved. I hope the meniscus issues won't decrease his value dramatically. I just fear that this FO waits for everything to fall apart before they move their assets. If our eyes are really on trying to win a championship, we shouldn't be waiting so long to move our guys - wasted seasons, wasted development, wasted assets. Focus on the guys who will be here when we win it.
--Hmmm. I can't quite get on board with you on this one. If McD can fashion a worthwhile trade for a quality PF, with EB being the 'centerpiece', then great. Regarding the timing of these trades, well, he may feel that's when he can put the 'squeeze' on and get the best return by waiting until the deadline, and maybe that's why he's holding on to Kieff. To another team, Kieff is quit a steal at $8M per. It's only on the Suns where he's not, ironically enough, worth his $8M salary. I'm sure McD will have plenty of suiters for Kieff, and if he waits to the deadline, he can use one club's offer to bargain for an even better deal from his preferred trade partner. I'd rather not say whether I agree with this strategy or not for fear of being labeled as a "McD Apologist."

[AtheJ415]

The Dragic trade was a good one. The entire purpose of getting first rounders that far out was because we wanted picks that would be sent AFTER their current team's players have aged and they are in transition, increasing the odds that the picks will be good ones. Also, Riley will retire soon, so he is more likely to look short term than long term, which helps us with those picks. For instance, if they end up losing Whiteside (which seems likely) and replacing him with Howard, that 2021 pick is gold imo.

[bwgood77]

Hmmm... is it trolling to use journalists as the bait ? Mwahhaha

from Gambo

The Phoenix Suns have issues, major issues — that is the understatement of the year.

At 12-20 this season is a train wreck and with Eric Bledsoe now out for the season it is likely going to get worse. The Suns have a lot of work to do to win back the fans and become respectable once again, but that is easier said than done.

What Phoenix first needs to do is to identify what is the cause of the problems? What are the real issues? Why are the Suns one of the worst teams in the NBA and headed to the draft lottery again? Why are they such a dysfunctional organization?

It’s not an easy thing to figure out, but a necessity in order to get this thing headed in the right direction. When last season ended, the Suns’ management and ownership identified the problem as a lack of leadership. Too many young guys on the roster and not enough veteran leadership to guide the younger players through the grind of 82 games.

So Phoenix addressed that issue by bringing in Tyson Chandler, Ronnie Price, Sonny Weems, Mirza Teletovic and Jon Leuer. And what did the effect of having veterans in the clubhouse do for this team?

NOTHING.

After losing to lowly Philadelphia, the Suns decided that the answer to fixing things is ridding themselves of some of their assistant coaches. They fired two respected coaches who both have championship rings. Jerry Sichting and Mike Longabardi are out in a bench shakeup. I guess it was their fault that the Suns weren’t winning. But you have to blame someone for this season, so let’s start with those two guys. Longabardi was a coach on the Celtics 2008 NBA Championship team and Sichting was a player on the Celtics 1985-86 title team. Both had tons of experience and success in the coaching ranks.

Maybe these moves were made to give Earl Watson a chance to be at the front of the bench. OK, I can live with that as Watson has a lot of potential to be a good coach. Maybe rumblings I had heard that both assistant coaches were positioning themselves to replace head coach Jeff Hornacek if the axe were to fall and didn’t have his best interests at heart were true. I can live with that if that is the case.

But let’s make one thing certain here, the Phoenix Suns are losing games this year because they don’t have enough talent. Yes, it is that simple. No, it’s not the coaching nor is it the leadership in the clubhouse. That was so overrated it was ridiculous. And while Markieff Morris continues to be a problem, they are not 12-20 because of him. Yes Suns management made a huge mistake when they elected not to trade him in the offseason despite all the information I was providing to the public and the Suns about how this was going to go down. All of that information has proven true.

Morris doesn’t want to be here and the Suns are actively shopping him and P.J. Tucker in an effort to create more opportunities for other players. But there is so little value for Morris that all I am hearing they can do is get off the contract. Some teams don’t want Markieff for FREE. You read that correctly. They would rather preserve cap space and not add three years of salary. Most teams have similar players as Morris is nothing special — just an average basketball player when he is on his game.

The Suns have made lot of mistakes lately. Trading the Lakers’ first-round draft pick in the deal for Brandon Knight and then paying Knight close to max money. If we are being perfectly honest, Isaiah Thomas is a better player than Knight and he comes at a fraction of the price. Speaking of Thomas, signing him and trying to keep three point guards happy was a huge mistake that resulted in Goran Dragic demanding a trade.

Signing Tyson Chandler to a four-year, $52 million contract when he is nothing more than a bench/role player at this point in his career was a mistake especially considering Alex Len was a better player at the time of the signing. Getting Chandler only made sense if they had gotten LaMarcus Aldridge. Keeping Markieff Morris in the summer, fall and now winter. Jerry Colangelo traded Robert Horry a few days after he threw a towel at then head coach Danny Ainge. The Suns suspended Morris two games for the same infraction. Those are just a few. And let’s not forget that the Suns followed up the loss of Amar’e Stoudemire a few years back with Hedo Turkoglu, Hakim Warrick and Josh Childress. Mistake, mistake, mistake. Getting rid of Stoudemire wasn’t wrong, but adding those three was.

The draft picks recently have been good — Len, T.J. Warren and Devin Booker were good picks by general manager Ryan McDonough. Those three guys are solid young players to build with, so McDonough has an eye for talent in the draft. It has been his strong point in what he brings to the table. Managing media, owners, coaches and players is what he needs to work on but he is young, and it will be up to owner Robert Sarver to determine if he is the right guy going forward to fix this. Jeff Hornacek has made his share of mistakes but he is not the problem here. Hornacek had no chance with this mess. He was almost Coach of the Year two years ago and now he can’t coach? Please. Hornacek knows what it takes to win, but he doesn’t have the tools in the toolbox.

The Suns need players. Better players than what they have. How they go about getting those players is up to them to figure out. But the Suns need to stop overvaluing their own players. The vast majority of them are nothing special and not worth the money they are being paid. Some of them have taken the money and decided they don’t want to roll up their sleeves anymore, especially on the defensive end. And please stop with all the analytic stuff — it doesn’t reflect heart and attitude.

There is a time and place to make changes. But no matter how many changes the Suns organization makes, they won’t win consistently until they get more talent on the court.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I hadn't realized there were rumblings that Longabardi and Sichting undermining the coach (trying to get into position to take his job when the axe fell) without his best interest at heart.

But I agree that it mostly comes down to talent. I think we have some good young talent, but I certainly don't think this is a team that should certainly be a playoff team with what they currently have. If everyone was healthy and not disgruntled, we would have a decent shot at one of the last seeds, but we are those things.

We did look good against OKC and CLE though so I could see us making a run of wins fairly soon with the young guys playing so well.

[Frank Lee]

Haha... a Dragic apologist ? I'll buy in. But that era is over. sure, I'd rather us kept him as our path to this point would have been drastically different. We'd still have Booker, Warren, and Len too. But likely no Knight. Nobody knows what the Dragon would be making now, nor if his play would have fallen off. Or if we would have dealt him for better pieces. However, this continual force feed of miami's protected#1 in 2017 and their pick in 2021 as being some colossal grab of assets and a victory in trade land is par for the course for 'McDuh apologizers'. We needed quality players then/now, not phantom assets. repeat 2021 .... jesus guys... that kid could be 15 yrs old NOW. Yet many are trumpeting that as a victory...in the face of defeat. too much rejoicing over a reactionary move that did not need to happen.





Those assets have done nothing for this rebuild. NOTHING. McDopey signed Thomas and forced the hokey Hydra on us. He then dealt him for a late late 2016 first. That move has done NOTHING for this rebuild. Oh, we'll get a kid who will take 2-3 yrs to contribute if at all (see Sir Archie) Keep in mind, McDontknow also signed the troublesome MoBros...and now is eating a crap sandwich on that one. And for the record, I was a GROWN-ASS-MAN apologist first and we got NOTHING for him as well. Didn't 'Net' anything for Scola either. These are productive players that are helping play off teams now. (I will await the resident cherry pickers that will devote their entire eye poking rebuttal about Louis )

McDonkey has stroked out 14 mill to Knight, 13 to chandler, 6 to Telly... about 4-5 more for fill ins ( Luaer being the best signing this yr which means he'll be dealt haha) Thats almost 40 million for improvements for THIS year... and what are we jazzed about...? three kids making less than 10. Any wonders why Sarver might be agitated? There is that thing called ROI and we sure as heck haven't seen much of that this yr.

Hey, I wish McDeal would have just stood down and gone about things different. He's a rookie GM (As it seems all of them have been since BC) and he makes mistakes. We are suffering with them now. I've drawn the line on him. His teeter has tottered to the middle to bad side, and the next 6 months will determine his job, IMO. He's vested in Knight ... a dude we could have bought for less on the open market....and the fact that we still have a MOBRO is irritating. McDarnit HAS to do something, and it feels like it HAS to be soon.

But you know, I'd be fine just moving forward with what we have. No more confidence in what Mc50/50 will do.

[bwgood77]

I think Frank makes some reasonable points, and I wanted to keep Dragic before he basically asked to get out as well. Had we never signed IT, creating the terrible situation, I'd almost certainly rather have Dragic, the Lakers pick and Ennis than Knight. Or even no Dragic, but kept the pick and Ennis.

However, I will say, since I am not a Heat fan, I haven't watched Dragic, paid attention to his stats or anything. So had we kept him, and paid him a lot, and he suddenly appeared to be over the hill, that wouldn't be something I would want. But as you said, we can't pretend to know how Dragic would be doing now if he was playing for the Suns.[YouTube][/YouTube]

Some have mentioned his issue was with Bledsoe, and I haven't ever really read that anywhere else than on this forum, but if that's the case, than one of the two probably had to go (but I can't speak with knowledge on whether or not this is true).

BUT, once Dragic wanted out (YES, IN MY OPINION THE FRONT OFFICE IS PROBABLY MOSTLY AT FAULT HERE) than getting two picks for them, one unprotected is a good deal imo (and that isn't blowing any smoke out of anyone's ass). It may not help McD much, because he almost certainly won't be around in 5 years, or as you mention, since the kid we draft then is maybe 15 (actually maybe even younger), it would likely be 7 or 8 years until that guy really contributes.

I mean, saying getting what we got for Dragic is meaningless because the situation should have never occurred anyway, is like crying over spilt milk. And you've been crying over said spilt milk for over a year now. But Frank, it's not your fault.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw[/youtube]

[Frank Lee]

its not meaningless, there is just minimal current value. Point is,,, when you lose talent/trade talent AND you are rebuilding, you need to replace the void with talent in a timely fashion. That is what McDoh! tried to do with Knight but it isn't turning out like he thought. If Knight was ballin, people would forget what we gave to get him, and who he replaced. But every knucklehead move he makes amplifies his price tag.

Bled going down might be the best thing that happened this yr for the FO...and it wasn't even their doing. We get to see more of Book, TJ, and less of the 2 PG experiment, all while getting good insight on what BKnight can really do, as painful as it may be to find out.

[silverstyne]

Yes he should be fired!

There should be a thing called ACCOUNTABILITY!

Its McDs job and responsibility to field a competitive roster and yet after 3 years, we are worse off than where we started. Our win record is actually regressing year by year.

I don't want to hear how he drafts great or its just chemistry problem etc etc. As of now, all he has to show for after 3 years is a mish-mashed dysfunctional team. There should be no excuses. He needs to go!

How in the world are we worse off than when we started? This team with Dudley, Gortat, Scola, and the laker picks is the #30 team in the league for the foreseeable future. The only upside is if we sucked enough, and then got lucky enough with higher odds, to somehow get the top picks in each of the past 3 drafts, which is still amazingly unlikely.

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),

This is the first we are hearing about an ankle sprain, but Leuer's owners should stick with him until we learn the severity of the issue.

A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

Dude this is the suns record, the past 5 years:

2010-11: 40-42
2011-12: 33-33
2012-13: 25-57
2013-14: 48-34
2014-15: 39-43
2015-16: trainwreck

I dont see any improvement in our record in the Mcd era and this despite the fact we were trying our best to get into playoffs. Its been almost 3 years since Mcd took over. What does he have to show for it?

Playoffs: None (our stated goal)
Superstar Player: None (his stated goal)
Top10 Pick: None (minus Len)

As one of the posters here said.. is this team even capable of beating the Beasly suns? Lol

[Frank Lee]

uh oh.... you 'Duded' the Nav. Better get some coffee

[saintEscaton]

We aren't lacking talent, we are lacking consistency. Once Markieff is moved, I'd like to see how the team plays.

You can't be serious. We are behind the eight ball and still need to catch up to the formidable young cores in this league... Even if Book and TJ pan out we are maybe half way there. As if Kieff is all to blame because his presence on the bench is dragging the entire team down. That narrative has been overplayed and only encourages denial

[bwgood77]

How in the world are we worse off than when we started? This team with Dudley, Gortat, Scola, and the laker picks is the #30 team in the league for the foreseeable future. The only upside is if we sucked enough, and then got lucky enough with higher odds, to somehow get the top picks in each of the past 3 drafts, which is still amazingly unlikely.

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),

This is the first we are hearing about an ankle sprain, but Leuer's owners should stick with him until we learn the severity of the issue.

A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

Dude this is the suns record, the past 5 years:

2010-11: 40-42
2011-12: 33-33
2012-13: 25-57
2013-14: 48-34
2014-15: 39-43
2015-16: trainwreck

I dont see any improvement in our record in the Mcd era and this despite the fact we were trying our best to get into playoffs. Its been almost 3 years since Mcd took over. What does he have to show for it?

Playoffs: None (our stated goal)
Superstar Player: None (his stated goal)
Top10 Pick: None (minus Len)

As one of the posters here said.. is this team even capable of beating the Beasly suns? Lol

The thing is, our record hasn't improved, but we are considerably younger. I am not entirely sure had we somehow intentionally tanked the last two years, we would have gotten better players than Warren and Booker. I like those guys. Maybe you and SaintEscaton don't and think otherwise, but I think we are not in the best place, but in a better place than we were three years ago....that's for sure.

When you break down a team and sell the future assets and go young, you will be hard pressed to make the playoffs in any year, but especially as tough as the west has been. This year there have been a multitude of reasons (Markieff situation, Bledsoe injury, etc) that will likely leave us there again.

But I think if we can hang onto Booker, Warren, Len and Hornacek, we have a good foundation. Bledsoe and Knight need to show a little more bbiq though.

[NavLDO]

How in the world are we worse off than when we started? This team with Dudley, Gortat, Scola, and the laker picks is the #30 team in the league for the foreseeable future. The only upside is if we sucked enough, and then got lucky enough with higher odds, to somehow get the top picks in each of the past 3 drafts, which is still amazingly unlikely.

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),

This is the first we are hearing about an ankle sprain, but Leuer's owners should stick with him until we learn the severity of the issue.

A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

Dude this is the suns record, the past 5 years:

2010-11: 40-42
2011-12: 33-33
2012-13: 25-57
2013-14: 48-34
2014-15: 39-43
2015-16: trainwreck

I dont see any improvement in our record in the Mcd era and this despite the fact we were trying our best to get into playoffs. Its been almost 3 years since Mcd took over. What does he have to show for it?

Playoffs: None (our stated goal)
Superstar Player: None (his stated goal)
Top10 Pick: None (minus Len)

As one of the posters here said.. is this team even capable of beating the Beasly suns? Lol

Sixers have been:
35-31
34-48
19-63
18-64
Bigger TrainWreck, and Hinkie's had multiple Top 10 picks

So Hinkie should be fired then, right?

Less than 3 years. You expect a new HC and a new GM to completely turnaround a franchise in less than 3 years. OK, great. Thanks for your input. Duly noted.

And what does McD have to show for it?

Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, Knight, etc., while dumping Beasley and the like. And now you want to fire him before he gets a chance, a REAL chance to allow his picks to develop?

Question for you. How many picks develop into All-NBA within 3 years, what %? How about 5?

Same for GMs. How many have gotten their NEW team to the finals in three years? How about 5?

One last question--who exactly do you want the Suns to hire? And how about Horny? You want him fired as well?

Why don't you present your plan to do better. I love when fans want to 'fire' people, yet don't provide course of action going forward.

[silverstyne]

As ive said, i just want accountability. If mcd had a goal and he failed to deliver then he needs to go. I am very much aware that Mcd has had some trade victories (value wise) here and there but looking at the overall product, our team is quite a mess... He has had 3 years to do his job and i have been patient and silent in his tenure except now.

[silverstyne]

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),



A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

Dude this is the suns record, the past 5 years:

2010-11: 40-42
2011-12: 33-33
2012-13: 25-57
2013-14: 48-34
2014-15: 39-43
2015-16: trainwreck

I dont see any improvement in our record in the Mcd era and this despite the fact we were trying our best to get into playoffs. Its been almost 3 years since Mcd took over. What does he have to show for it?

Playoffs: None (our stated goal)
Superstar Player: None (his stated goal)
Top10 Pick: None (minus Len)

As one of the posters here said.. is this team even capable of beating the Beasly suns? Lol

Sixers have been:
35-31
34-48
19-63
18-64
Bigger TrainWreck, and Hinkie's had multiple Top 10 picks

So Hinkie should be fired then, right?

-------

If you havent noticed. Hinkie is about to be axed. Hes been reviled so much that that the NBA board has had to intervrne and put JC in top of him. If im a 76er fan id ask for his head as well.

Less than 3 years. You expect a new HC and a new GM to completely turnaround a franchise in less than 3 years. OK, great. Thanks for your input. Duly noted.

-------'''

Yes i am going to judge him for the past 3 years if hus work. And the sad thing is, we are not even close to a turnaround. Arent we worse off now than in Mcds first year? Counter question: how long would you give him? 5 years? 10 years?

And what does McD have to show for it?

Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, Knight, etc., while dumping Beasley and the like. And now you want to fire him before he gets a chance, a REAL chance to allow his picks to develop?


--------

Are any of them star talent? Len regressed. Book and Warren LOOK promising. Knight was definitely NOT worth the Laker pick. and dont get me started on the rest of the roster. As ive said, he constructed a flawed and somehat talented, losing team with chrmistry issues and thats on him

Question for you. How many picks develop into All-NBA within 3 years, what %? How about 5?

Same for GMs. How many have gotten their NEW team to the finals in three years? How about 5?

----------

Im not for tanking but what im after is achievement of goals. If you say, you want to win, then i measure you on the number of wins you give me. They have been pushing for the plsyoffs and yet they failed to reach it. Thats a fail on my book. AN ORGANIZATION NEEDS CLEAR DIRECTION FROM THE TOP. If they want to tank, im fine with it too.. dont give me some crap thats niether here nor there.

One last question--who exactly do you want the Suns to hire? And how about Horny? You want him fired as well?

---------

Yup id fire horny as well. He has his issues with playing time and discipline. Id be after a strong coach who our young talent could learn from. Id go with thibs. I like JVG as well if we were to unretire.

Why don't you present your plan to do better. I love when fans want to 'fire' people, yet don't provide course of action going .

[AtheJ415]

How in the world are we worse off than when we started? This team with Dudley, Gortat, Scola, and the laker picks is the #30 team in the league for the foreseeable future. The only upside is if we sucked enough, and then got lucky enough with higher odds, to somehow get the top picks in each of the past 3 drafts, which is still amazingly unlikely.

Wholly agree with AtheJ here--we are miles ahead of where we were when McD took over.

And here is the best part of ALL of this discussion the last two weeks on this board, quite frankly, which I find quite hilarious.

We have fans telling us we need to eat crow because we were optimistic and didn't agree that we were 'treadmilling'; and as I said in that thread, there's no 'more wrong' or 'more right'; the bottom-line??? Both groups were 'WRONG'. A 12-23 team is not 'treadmilling', it's 'tanking'...

...which brings me to my 2nd, and ultimately, most poignant point to all of this. We've had fans CRYING to McD and Horny to 'Tank', and now that we are, these same fans want McD and Horny fired because our team stinks? Hey, they are only doing what you all have been crying for, for 3 years, right?

This is exactly what I figured would happen--these 'fans' actually don't have the 'stomach' for a 'tank-job'. Again, our team is tanking, exactly what so many wanted; but now you want the, and I use the term loosely, 'architects', of the tank-job to be fired for finally doing what you wanted them to do all along? Seriously? You all should be doing back-flips and screaming 'woo-hoo' for finally heading down the road you wanted them to. Put yourselves in their positions for a moment; do you see WHY if one was a GM or HC of a team why they would be reluctant to 'tank'? Because as soon as 'you' did what the masses wanted, those same masses want you fired? That's fair, right?

Unbelievable! And now, I suppose we'll hear these same fans tell us 'they aren't TRYING to tank, they just stink'. Really? Are you in the meetings with the team leadership? Tell me, what is a tank supposed to look like, because I'm pretty sure that tanking is 'frowned upon' by league officials, so what are the HC and GM supposed to do? Announce it to everyone? "Hey everybody, we're tanking."

To me, a team that is playing their rookie an average of 20 mpg the last 10 games might be tanking. A team that sits their best 2 talents at PF--Morris and Leuer might be tanking. (And yes, BTW, I know about the 'sprain', but as was mentioned on Rotoworld),

This is the first we are hearing about an ankle sprain, but Leuer's owners should stick with him until we learn the severity of the issue.

A team giving as many or more minutes to the aging, poorly-playing 33 YO Center, as their #5 overall pick, and better player, might be tanking.

A team NOT trading, or wheeling-n-dealing during the trade session of the season, when it's obvious that they could improve their team with the right trade, might be tanking.

But now they are tanking for a higher pick in the field of a talentless draft class...why? And why not sooner? Well, a team wouldn't look like they are tanking for a poor draft class, right? And remember, the pick is still worth more as a #4 pick than a #12 pick, regardless of how good or bad a draft class is, right? Just because we have t pick doesn't mean we have to use it; it still has value in a trade, right?

Again, those that wanted to tank, and the fact that we MIGHT actually be tanking (MIGHT, not ARE--IDK, just presenting it as a potentiality, is all) are now wanting our GM and HC to be fired; do I have this correct? Wow, is all I really have to say, if that is the case. Not very fair, don't you think?

Dude this is the suns record, the past 5 years:

2010-11: 40-42
2011-12: 33-33
2012-13: 25-57
2013-14: 48-34
2014-15: 39-43
2015-16: trainwreck

I dont see any improvement in our record in the Mcd era and this despite the fact we were trying our best to get into playoffs. Its been almost 3 years since Mcd took over. What does he have to show for it?

Playoffs: None (our stated goal)
Superstar Player: None (his stated goal)
Top10 Pick: None (minus Len)

As one of the posters here said.. is this team even capable of beating the Beasly suns? Lol

No improvement in record while getting drastically younger is a win. Who has more wins than us and a younger roster?

And what's he supposed to say, "no, we don't want to win. We want to lose as much as possible to get a high pick. Sucks for you, season ticket holders!" No GM outright says they are tanking except for the 76ers. Every other one will state their goal is to make the playoffs. Hell, most of their goals probably are to make the playoffs, but they're realistic about it such that they aren't going to trade all their youth for vets to do it. If McD was as obsessed with making the playoffs like you say, and wanted to do that, Booker, Warren, Len, Bledsoe, and Knight aren't here. They've been moved for vets who don't need help winning now. Our team of Al Jefferson's and Paul Milsap's, which would undoubtedly make the playoffs but have no chance of a title and a mortgaged future would be easily acquired. However, not every GM wants to be the Brooklyn Nets.

Yes, the stated goal is to find a superstar. Only 5-6 teams have them. If you expected them in 3 years, then your expectations are off.

Top 10 picks would be nice, but who would we have selected with those? We have top 5 players from the past 3 classes. That's the important thing here.

[AtheJ415]

Haha... a Dragic apologist ? I'll buy in. But that era is over. sure, I'd rather us kept him as our path to this point would have been drastically different. We'd still have Booker, Warren, and Len too. But likely no Knight. Nobody knows what the Dragon would be making now, nor if his play would have fallen off. Or if we would have dealt him for better pieces. However, this continual force feed of miami's protected#1 in 2017 and their pick in 2021 as being some colossal grab of assets and a victory in trade land is par for the course for 'McDuh apologizers'. We needed quality players then/now, not phantom assets. repeat 2021 .... jesus guys... that kid could be 15 yrs old NOW. Yet many are trumpeting that as a victory...in the face of defeat. too much rejoicing over a reactionary move that did not need to happen.





Those assets have done nothing for this rebuild. NOTHING. McDopey signed Thomas and forced the hokey Hydra on us. He then dealt him for a late late 2016 first. That move has done NOTHING for this rebuild. Oh, we'll get a kid who will take 2-3 yrs to contribute if at all (see Sir Archie) Keep in mind, McDontknow also signed the troublesome MoBros...and now is eating a crap sandwich on that one. And for the record, I was a GROWN-ASS-MAN apologist first and we got NOTHING for him as well. Didn't 'Net' anything for Scola either. These are productive players that are helping play off teams now. (I will await the resident cherry pickers that will devote their entire eye poking rebuttal about Louis )

McDonkey has stroked out 14 mill to Knight, 13 to chandler, 6 to Telly... about 4-5 more for fill ins ( Luaer being the best signing this yr which means he'll be dealt haha) Thats almost 40 million for improvements for THIS year... and what are we jazzed about...? three kids making less than 10. Any wonders why Sarver might be agitated? There is that thing called ROI and we sure as heck haven't seen much of that this yr.

Hey, I wish McDeal would have just stood down and gone about things different. He's a rookie GM (As it seems all of them have been since BC) and he makes mistakes. We are suffering with them now. I've drawn the line on him. His teeter has tottered to the middle to bad side, and the next 6 months will determine his job, IMO. He's vested in Knight ... a dude we could have bought for less on the open market....and the fact that we still have a MOBRO is irritating. McDarnit HAS to do something, and it feels like it HAS to be soon.

But you know, I'd be fine just moving forward with what we have. No more confidence in what Mc50/50 will do.

Your logic for the Miami trade is the equivalent of a Boston fan calling this year's Brooklyn pick a phantom asset in the Pierce/KG trade. It's nonsense. As is the logic that we don't know how much Dragic would be making here. How much of a paycut do you think he would realistically have taken to stay here? Guys turning 28 who have never made more than 7.5 mill a year simply do not turn down roughly $20 million a year. It doesn't happen. Maybe he takes like 2.5 mil/year less to stay at a preferred destination, but it is beyond unrealistic to expect that, and it's also beyond unrealistic to think he'd be performing way better here. He is not playing well at all in Miami.

If you're going to hammer McD for the supposed bad contracts he's handed out, while simultaneously hammering him for the obvious bad contracts he's avoided and claiming his future unprotected picks from aging teams are phantom assets, it's no wonder you think he's done an awful job. It seems pretty clear there's nothing he can do that would be a win to you.

[Mulhollanddrive]

McDonough on radio saying he thinks we can make 8th seed, only 3 games back in striking distance.

Says Teletovic told a team meeting as inspiration, that he lost 13 games in a row and still made the playoffs in Brooklyn.

That makes me wonder what on earth is going on in the FO, the mentality seems delusional.

Interview was post-Bledsoe injury as well.

No mentions of Booker, Warren, Len or Goodwin.

[RunDogGun]

We aren't lacking talent, we are lacking consistency. Once Markieff is moved, I'd like to see how the team plays.

You can't be serious. We are behind the eight ball and still need to catch up to the formidable young cores in this league... Even if Book and TJ pan out we are maybe half way there. As if Kieff is all to blame because his presence on the bench is dragging the entire team down. That narrative has been overplayed and only encourages denial

Yes, I am serious. We have talent, and they have shown that talent on the floor. The problem is they are not consistently producing. Yes a cancer in the locker room can influence a whole team. Cut out the cancer first, and see how the body reacts. You don't just kill the whole body, dude.