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CLE/PHX
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CLE/PHX
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CLE/PHX
Markieff Morris for TPE+Joe Harris+heavily protected 2nd
PHX gets out from Markieffs contract and his malcontent ways.
CLE picks up a talented but troubled player. The type of player that their exceptions were made for (like JR Smith before him). He'll have a spot as the backup 3/4 and gives them an extra weapon against the ultra talented teams in GSW/SAS.
I think the value is fair. Maybe return CLE's 1st rounder?
PHX gets out from Markieffs contract and his malcontent ways.
CLE picks up a talented but troubled player. The type of player that their exceptions were made for (like JR Smith before him). He'll have a spot as the backup 3/4 and gives them an extra weapon against the ultra talented teams in GSW/SAS.
I think the value is fair. Maybe return CLE's 1st rounder?
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
I don't think this trade works under the CBA. CLE cannot take in this much salary. Also, this deal would not fly for PHX. Not enough value. Returning CLE's first on top of this is completely laughable.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
SideSwipe wrote:I don't think this trade works under the CBA. CLE cannot take in this much salary. Also, this deal would not fly for PHX. Not enough value. Returning CLE's first on top of this is completely laughable.
Cleveland has the Haywood TPE so they could add his salary if they wanted. But considering how much real money that would cost ownership for a 3rd string PF who potentially is a cancer on a team with championship aspirations they obviously would never consider this.
And while I agree Phoenix shouldn't be giving Cleveland their pick back, this is his value. He's not bringing back a good prospect or pick. That ship has long since sailed.
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Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Texas Chuck wrote:SideSwipe wrote:I don't think this trade works under the CBA. CLE cannot take in this much salary. Also, this deal would not fly for PHX. Not enough value. Returning CLE's first on top of this is completely laughable.
Cleveland has the Haywood TPE so they could add his salary if they wanted. But considering how much real money that would cost ownership for a 3rd string PF who potentially is a cancer on a team with championship aspirations they obviously would never consider this.
And while I agree Phoenix shouldn't be giving Cleveland their pick back, this is his value. He's not bringing back a good prospect or pick. That ship has long since sailed.
Id think he'd have a pretty good role on the team as the backup 3/4. TT plays predominately as the backup C these days (and he's better at it) while Richard Jefferson is playing as Lebron/Love's backup. He's versatile and a pretty good defender and was the Suns biggest + player last year. Id think he'd be a great fit.
But your right, he's a potential cancer that might unravel CLE's championship hopes. Was more of a fun idea than a trade I could see happening
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Re: CLE/PHX
Texas Chuck wrote:SideSwipe wrote:I don't think this trade works under the CBA. CLE cannot take in this much salary. Also, this deal would not fly for PHX. Not enough value. Returning CLE's first on top of this is completely laughable.
Cleveland has the Haywood TPE so they could add his salary if they wanted. But considering how much real money that would cost ownership for a 3rd string PF who potentially is a cancer on a team with championship aspirations they obviously would never consider this.
And while I agree Phoenix shouldn't be giving Cleveland their pick back, this is his value. He's not bringing back a good prospect or pick. That ship has long since sailed.
CLE cannot do this trade. If they include a player, they cannot use the TPE. They don't have the assets with using the TPE to get Morris. A 2nd rounder will not cut it. PHX will keep him and wait to get him minutes. Teams will be more desperate for help around the deadline. CLE is the type of team that is likely to fork over more assets for Morris because he will play for them and there are enough strong personalities on the team to keep him in line if he acts up.
Lebron knows full well what Morris can do, as he lit them up for 35 last season with Lebron guarding him on a couple of those. His value is diminished, but it will be short-sighted for PHX to take a deal like this especially if it looks like they are out of the playoff hunt. If they want to make a push for the playoffs they will go for another mid-career guy. Any way you slice it, the OP is flawed technically and value-wise in my opinion.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
SideSwipe wrote:
CLE cannot do this trade. If they include a player, they cannot use the TPE. They don't have the assets with using the TPE to get Morris. A 2nd rounder will not cut it.
1st part of your post here remains incorrect. The NBA allows each team to structure the deal in the way most beneficial to them. In this case Cleveland takes in Morris using the TPE and deals out Harris. Perfectly legal for them. Phoenix would just trade Morris for Harris which is legal because they take back less money and it creates a TPE for them for the difference in this year's salary.
On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him. Now maybe you question his reporting but realize that's really different from your opinion that the Suns can get more than a young player and a 2nd back. I think just getting out of his contract is about the best the Suns can do at this point. Talented guys who have these kinds of issues don't bring back a lot of value.
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Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Texas Chuck wrote:SideSwipe wrote:
CLE cannot do this trade. If they include a player, they cannot use the TPE. They don't have the assets with using the TPE to get Morris. A 2nd rounder will not cut it.
1st part of your post here remains incorrect. The NBA allows each team to structure the deal in the way most beneficial to them. In this case Cleveland takes in Morris using the TPE and deals out Harris. Perfectly legal for them. Phoenix would just trade Morris for Harris which is legal because they take back less money and it creates a TPE for them for the difference in this year's salary.
On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him. Now maybe you question his reporting but realize that's really different from your opinion that the Suns can get more than a young player and a 2nd back. I think just getting out of his contract is about the best the Suns can do at this point. Talented guys who have these kinds of issues don't bring back a lot of value.
TPE is tricky...is not a blank check but in SOME cases.. there's loopholes. The bypass is usually you trade payer A for player X.. then player B for TPE... and player B may be overpaid low value....and player X is less than player A. The REAL deal is linked but you can count it as seperate. TPE is quite tricky. Assume NOTHING unless you know all the details.
CENSORED... No comment.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Cleveland could absolutely take Morris in to the Haywood TPE. Al they would have to send back is a heavily protected second round pick that will never actually convey if they wanted to.
But the Cavs aren't brining him in. He doesn't help them at all, since he can't play the 3 very well. That is his brother who can do that. He's almost strictly a PF with the ability to play small ball 5. Cleveland has enough guys who can do that already.
But the Cavs aren't brining him in. He doesn't help them at all, since he can't play the 3 very well. That is his brother who can do that. He's almost strictly a PF with the ability to play small ball 5. Cleveland has enough guys who can do that already.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
old rem wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:SideSwipe wrote:
CLE cannot do this trade. If they include a player, they cannot use the TPE. They don't have the assets with using the TPE to get Morris. A 2nd rounder will not cut it.
1st part of your post here remains incorrect. The NBA allows each team to structure the deal in the way most beneficial to them. In this case Cleveland takes in Morris using the TPE and deals out Harris. Perfectly legal for them. Phoenix would just trade Morris for Harris which is legal because they take back less money and it creates a TPE for them for the difference in this year's salary.
On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him. Now maybe you question his reporting but realize that's really different from your opinion that the Suns can get more than a young player and a 2nd back. I think just getting out of his contract is about the best the Suns can do at this point. Talented guys who have these kinds of issues don't bring back a lot of value.
TPE is tricky...is not a blank check but in SOME cases.. there's loopholes. The bypass is usually you trade payer A for player X.. then player B for TPE... and player B may be overpaid low value....and player X is less than player A. The REAL deal is linked but you can count it as seperate. TPE is quite tricky. Assume NOTHING unless you know all the details.
I know enough of the details to know that the OP's deal is totally legal. Again the NBA has rules allowing each team to structure a trade in the most favorable way for them. But this deal is so simple there are no loopholes needed. Sideswipe just got confused for a second I guess.
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Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Texas Chuck wrote:On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him.
Zach Lowe reported that whereas Chris Mannix reported this:
"Lot of posturing out there about Markieff Morris trade value, but several teams still really like the 3-4 combo forward w/good contract."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/681501497234993152
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Re: CLE/PHX
hcsilla wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him.
Zach Lowe reported that whereas Chris Mannix reported this:
"Lot of posturing out there about Markieff Morris trade value, but several teams still really like the 3-4 combo forward w/good contract."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/681501497234993152
I'm gonna go with Zach Lowe 100 out of 100 times over Chris Mannix. Especially when you consider Mannix called him a 3-4 when he's really more of a true 4 who can play some 5.
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Re: CLE/PHX
Smitty731 wrote:hcsilla wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him.
Zach Lowe reported that whereas Chris Mannix reported this:
"Lot of posturing out there about Markieff Morris trade value, but several teams still really like the 3-4 combo forward w/good contract."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/681501497234993152
I'm gonna go with Zach Lowe 100 out of 100 times over Chris Mannix.
Okay, this is getting a bit absurd.
Since Zach Lowe reported it, it is a law. I believe McDonough also have read this and realized that he has to obey and already offered 2016 Suns 1st rounder if someone takes Markieff.
Smarter teams however are patient enough and waiting when the next Lowe-report comes out when the Suns have to start to attache Warren and possibly Booker to their 1st rounder as well and to beg that other teams should take Markieff.
That's just how business goes in the NBA.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
hcsilla wrote:Smitty731 wrote:hcsilla wrote:
Zach Lowe reported that whereas Chris Mannix reported this:
"Lot of posturing out there about Markieff Morris trade value, but several teams still really like the 3-4 combo forward w/good contract."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/681501497234993152
I'm gonna go with Zach Lowe 100 out of 100 times over Chris Mannix.
Okay, this is getting a bit absurd.
Since Zach Lowe reported it, it is a law. I believe McDonough also have read this and realized that he has to obey and already offered 2016 Suns 1st rounder if someone takes Markieff.
Smarter teams however are patient enough and waiting when the next Lowe-report comes out when the Suns have to start to attache Warren and possibly Booker to their 1st rounder as well and to beg that other teams should take Markieff.
That's just how business goes in the NBA.
Why are you getting angry? I was simply pointing out that Lowe has FAR more credibility around the league than Mannix. And now you are being absurd that they have to attach Warren, Booker and a first. No one is saying that.
But it makes sense that a player who has been awful all year, has attitude issues, character issues and legal issues would need something attached to him to be moved. There are teams that still like him, I am sure of it. But those teams aren't going to line up to get him. Not without something else added to the deal. Far too much risk for not enough reward.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
yeah getting way too sensitive in here. You are welcome to your opinion that Morris has value. But understand those of us who don't think he can return anything good have our reasons for that opinion. The sarcasm seems badly misplaced here and not really conducive to any kind of meaningful discussion.
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Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Smitty731 wrote:hcsilla wrote:Smitty731 wrote:
I'm gonna go with Zach Lowe 100 out of 100 times over Chris Mannix.
Okay, this is getting a bit absurd.
Since Zach Lowe reported it, it is a law. I believe McDonough also have read this and realized that he has to obey and already offered 2016 Suns 1st rounder if someone takes Markieff.
Smarter teams however are patient enough and waiting when the next Lowe-report comes out when the Suns have to start to attache Warren and possibly Booker to their 1st rounder as well and to beg that other teams should take Markieff.
That's just how business goes in the NBA.
Why are you getting angry?
I'm not.
But it makes sense that a player who has been awful all year, has attitude issues, character issues and legal issues
This all year means 23 games contrary to his two complete seasons where he played good ball. Legal issues probably will be solved and Markieff will be cleared of a charge.
What's the difference between character and attitude issues? Could you please name a few of each that Markieff is suffering from?
would need something attached to him to be moved. There are teams that still like him, I am sure of it. But those teams aren't going to line up to get him. Not without something else added to the deal. Far too much risk for not enough reward.
If that's indeed the case (which I'm still not completely buying), the Suns will have to sit back and start to rebuild Markieff. They have nothing to lose now except the assets that reportedly should have to attache to a Markieff-deal.
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Re: CLE/PHX
For me, it is more about the fact that he sulked and whined since his brother got traded. Then he gave half-assed effort. Then feuded with his coach, who has done nothing but try and support him. The legal issues may be resolved, but something happened there. And yes, a half-season as awful as this can undo a lot of good from previous years.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
Smitty731 wrote:hcsilla wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him.
Zach Lowe reported that whereas Chris Mannix reported this:
"Lot of posturing out there about Markieff Morris trade value, but several teams still really like the 3-4 combo forward w/good contract."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMannixSI/status/681501497234993152
I'm gonna go with Zach Lowe 100 out of 100 times over Chris Mannix. Especially when you consider Mannix called him a 3-4 when he's really more of a true 4 who can play some 5.
I'm of an opinion that Markieffs value is higher than most non Phoenix fans think, but I just want to reiterate that Zach lowe is definitely a lot more believable as a general source than Mannix in every way. Lowe is the closest thing to the WOj/Stein tier out there right now imo.
That said, I think MArkieff gets moved for neutra-lish value, and more than Calderon or similar bad 2 year contract. I think an expiring + 2nd for him might make sense. Or a 'hey we hope this expiring works out well here' for him and Goodwin (who I think has 2nd round value but maybe to avoid that debate its better just to say for a 2nd rounder with Markieff)
Either way, I think he goes for roughly neutral value with a team taking the risk as the real cost.
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I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. Morris has the capability to be a good role player, but he scares me as far as how he'll affect team chemistry. The dude is a proven cancer. Plus, we're pretty jam packed at the 4/5. What we really need is a backup SF who can defend and maybe hit an open three here and there.
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Re: CLE/PHX
Texas Chuck wrote:old rem wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:
1st part of your post here remains incorrect. The NBA allows each team to structure the deal in the way most beneficial to them. In this case Cleveland takes in Morris using the TPE and deals out Harris. Perfectly legal for them. Phoenix would just trade Morris for Harris which is legal because they take back less money and it creates a TPE for them for the difference in this year's salary.
On the 2nd part, obviously we have different opinions. Zack Lowe reported that teams were asking the Suns for an asset for taking him. Now maybe you question his reporting but realize that's really different from your opinion that the Suns can get more than a young player and a 2nd back. I think just getting out of his contract is about the best the Suns can do at this point. Talented guys who have these kinds of issues don't bring back a lot of value.
TPE is tricky...is not a blank check but in SOME cases.. there's loopholes. The bypass is usually you trade payer A for player X.. then player B for TPE... and player B may be overpaid low value....and player X is less than player A. The REAL deal is linked but you can count it as seperate. TPE is quite tricky. Assume NOTHING unless you know all the details.
I know enough of the details to know that the OP's deal is totally legal. Again the NBA has rules allowing each team to structure a trade in the most favorable way for them. But this deal is so simple there are no loopholes needed. Sideswipe just got confused for a second I guess.
Actually, I believe you may be confused. For the OP to be considered, PHX would have to contribute an additional asset, typically in the form of a 2nd rounder. In every trade a team must contribute an asset.
To accomplish the OP in the manner you suggest would actually require the following to be true:
Trade #1 Morris for a 2nd rounder (slotting into CLE Haywood TPE)
then
Trade #2 Harris for.... what other asset?
PHX would have to kick in a protected 2nd (55+ protected maybe, but still a pick)- it's an asset not included in the OP. It's pretty simple- for two trades to happen each side must have at least two assets involved. A TPE is not a tradable asset. A TPE is only a mechanism for taking in imbalanced salary regardless of cap situation.
The OP doesn't work and this value is off. PHX will keep Morris and play it out if this is the offer. You can book it. They have less and less incentive to move him as time goes on, not more at this point. Trade deadline is looking more likely than ever- if you want him more than that, the price needs to be higher. The tough truth is there are several teams that would like him. He will be very good for a vet team as the 3rd guy-HOU, TOR, NYK, CHI...could all use him, with several already rumored to want him.
Re: CLE/PHX
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Re: CLE/PHX
SideSwipe wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:old rem wrote:
TPE is tricky...is not a blank check but in SOME cases.. there's loopholes. The bypass is usually you trade payer A for player X.. then player B for TPE... and player B may be overpaid low value....and player X is less than player A. The REAL deal is linked but you can count it as seperate. TPE is quite tricky. Assume NOTHING unless you know all the details.
I know enough of the details to know that the OP's deal is totally legal. Again the NBA has rules allowing each team to structure a trade in the most favorable way for them. But this deal is so simple there are no loopholes needed. Sideswipe just got confused for a second I guess.
Actually, I believe you may be confused. For the OP to be considered, PHX would have to contribute an additional asset, typically in the form of a 2nd rounder. In every trade a team must contribute an asset.
To accomplish the OP in the manner you suggest would actually require the following to be true:
Trade #1 Morris for a 2nd rounder (slotting into CLE Haywood TPE)
then
Trade #2 Harris for.... what other asset?
PHX would have to kick in a protected 2nd (55+ protected maybe, but still a pick)- it's an asset not included in the OP. It's pretty simple- for two trades to happen each side must have at least two assets involved. A TPE is not a tradable asset. A TPE is only a mechanism for taking in imbalanced salary regardless of cap situation.
The OP doesn't work and this value is off. PHX will keep Morris and play it out if this is the offer. You can book it. They have less and less incentive to move him as time goes on, not more at this point. Trade deadline is looking more likely than ever- if you want him more than that, the price needs to be higher. The tough truth is there are several teams that would like him. He will be very good for a vet team as the 3rd guy-HOU, TOR, NYK, CHI...could all use him, with several already rumored to want him.
No, its entirely legal. You can look at it differently for different teams. Cleveland takes him into the TPE while PHX gets Harris.
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