PC Board OT thread

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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1881 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Jan 2, 2016 2:16 pm

Quotatious wrote:Loose observation about KG - how impressive is the fact that Garnett's Wolves had a better record than the Lakers with still-prime Shaq and arguably peak Kobe, in '03 (KG and Kobe both played all 82 games, Shaq played 67), coached by arguably the GOAT coach, despite the fact that KG didn't have another all-star on his team (let alone superstar)? Plus, his best teammate, Wally Szczerbiak, missed 30 games in the regular season.

The knock on prime KG is that he was great statistically but lacked team success - well, in '03 and '04, he had tremendous team success (in '04, Wolves had a better record than the Lakers, for the second straight year), relative to the talent level of his teams.

I know the Lakers beat them in the playoffs, but even then, Garnett was still arguably the best player in that series. KG averaged 27 points, 15.7 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.7 blocks on 53.9% TS (would've been higher if he didn't shoot his free throws 15-20% worse than usual), but he shot basically the same percentages as Shaq (Garnett 51.4% FG and 60.7% FT, O'Neal 51.6% FG and 61.1% FT), while also being able to play Shaq basically to a standstill in terms of all-around contributions.


Don't want to take anything away from your main point about what KG was doing--which I totally agree with. I would say using those Lakers teams as a barometer might be slightly misleading as they weren't putting a great deal of emphasis on the regular season at this point after the 3 straight championships.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1882 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Jan 2, 2016 3:34 pm

Just read that Joey Crawford is retiring after this season's Finals. Weird to think about but he's been reffing for longer than the majority of us posters have been alive.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1883 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Jan 2, 2016 6:31 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Anyone watch Fargo? I'm slowly working my way through the first season (no spoilers please) and I have to say it's the best show I've seen in a looooooooooooong time.


Oh boy are you in for it with the second season. They're not even on the same plane, except I don't think anyone's quite as riveting as Thornton.

Fargo season 1 = 2015 Curry
Fargo season 2 = 2016 Curry

Literally the best analogy.

Over the last few years I've caught all of Fargo, BB, AGOT, Hannibal, The Americans, TD, BCS, and a few others. Hannibal S2 or S3 and Fargo S2 are the clear standouts among them.


Just want to come back and say holy hell did this show blow me away. Noah Hawley's a savant, and I love his technique of having one event basically bleed out and be exacerbated by a series of terrible decisions that were justifiable at the time they were made. Allows him to craft and intricate story that is 100% inevitable yet never feels that way. Everything that happens is organic and feels like the right thing for the character to do given the information they're privy to at the time (except
Spoiler:
Dodd
, who has motivations separate from everyone else. The character writing was a huge step forward and I'm glad to see a TV show dedicate scenes to develop the fact that these characters have actions and storylines that occur outside the context of the show, very Lost-esque in that regard and really helps ramp up the drama when **** goes down.

The cinematography and technical aspects of the show were truly not of this world. The brownish tint and all the landscape shots really gave this season it's unique feel, even as compared to the winter/northern settings of the movie and first season. The use of color was outstanding and I think whitewashing with snowstorms would have distracted from that, even as the lack of snow disappointed some. I also liked how they went out more on a limb and distanced themselves more and more from the tone of the movie, at times I felt the first season tried too hard to be a sequel.

That said, I have a couple issues:
Spoiler:
Mike Milligan didn't work for me at all. I hated the character and I thought the acting was awful and unconvincing. It was bittersweet for me to see him get arguably the best arc in the whole season in ep. 10. In general I felt the acting was worse in this season compared to S1 aside from Dunst and a few other standouts. Also the Hanzee as seafood dude from S1 is a total WTF and just so damn out of place considering how intricate every other aspect of the story is.


On the whole I agree one of the best seasons of TV ever and I'm super excited for S3.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1884 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jan 2, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: Fargo.

I'm someone who didn't like the movie and 1st season because there are just certain emotions I don't like experiencing. So I was very surprised in a good way when things changed this season. Really loved it, and thought it was masterfully done.

There are so many great shows on TV right now it's tough to say which are best. One thing I would say though is that while I loved Jessica Jones, it's a show that I think just covers the bases when it comes to the finer style points. Whereas shows like Fargo, and my personal fave right now Mr. Robot, are literally playing with avery aspect of what we watch.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1885 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Jan 2, 2016 7:12 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Re: Fargo.

I'm someone who didn't like the movie and 1st season because there are just certain emotions I don't like experiencing.


That's really interesting. Would you feel comfortable elaborating? Fargo is pretty consistently up there as one of the GOATs for most people so I'm curious to hear a different perspective.

Do you dislike the Coen brothers in general or was it just the tone of that particular movie? No Country is another one that is considered arguably the GOAT of recent years and was basically Fargo but with more action and a humorless tone.

Doctor MJ wrote:So I was very surprised in a good way when things changed this season. Really loved it, and thought it was masterfully done.

There are so many great shows on TV right now it's tough to say which are best. One thing I would say though is that while I loved Jessica Jones, it's a show that I think just covers the bases when it comes to the finer style points. Whereas shows like Fargo, and my personal fave right now Mr. Robot, are literally playing with avery aspect of what we watch.


Spoiler:
I was disappointed to feel like I missed out on the finer points of all the Reagan stuff in this season of Fargo. As someone who knows everything secondhand through reading and asking around, I still found that narrative extremely compelling and was floored by the way the themes it introduced (lack of communication, best laid plans going awry, etc.) permeated all of the writing. The bathroom scene ("but HOW?") might be my favorite moment of the entire series so far.


Mr. Robot and Jessica Jones are definitely on the docket for me right now. I love how cinematic TV is getting, and you're right that there's a huge boom of great TV shows right now. Even the stale sitcom format has shown it can be revitalized by a show with slightly-off humor and a unique tone (talking about You're the Worst). An embarrassment of riches.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1886 » by The-Power » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:03 am

In case you didn't know them already, there is a channel on Youtube named 'Barely Productions' where you can find awesome parodies (usually of popular songs) under the label 'Key of Awesome'. They deserve - even more - attention in my opinion because they combine good music and videos with really funny, smart and apt lyrics. I thought I should promote them here so you don't miss out on their productions - I'm currently listening more to them than the actual songs, it's great stuff.

I'll leave some of their videos in the spoilers below so that you can check it out and see if it's to your taste.

Spoiler:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9pFPOI8ecw&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD&index=86[/youtube][youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDP_CPpPhCY&index=4&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD[/youtube]

Spoiler:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5GAlCVbPY8&index=28&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYRQ-sFMJw&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD&index=22[/youtube]

Spoiler:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6txmM8M9Iw&index=51&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdbHiDnbhb0&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD&index=75[/youtube]

And for the cinephiles:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1mboWYn0c&index=16&list=PL1C90BDF46E6EACFD[/youtube]
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1887 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun Jan 3, 2016 10:32 pm

I've only completed the first episode of Making a Murderer but it blew me away. One of the best first episodes I've ever seen.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1888 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jan 3, 2016 11:55 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:I've only completed the first episode of Making a Murderer but it blew me away. One of the best first episodes I've ever seen.


See, I'd also advice people to check that program out, but I'd put the loud caveat that it's not remotely an enjoyable experience. It's terrifying and disgusting seeing how our justice fails, and fails, and fails.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1889 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon Jan 4, 2016 12:15 am

The Sweet Hereafter was the best movie I ever saw that I have no interest in watching again. The movie captured the essence of sadness and grief by showing a community that could and could not move on from a tragic event. It really expressed meaningful parts of the human experience but I could never view it again.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1890 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Jan 4, 2016 2:07 am

So awhile back I made this thread asking how the Lakers would fare if they stuck with Kermit Washington. I've been reading Lazenby's The Show (narrative history of the Lakers from about a decade ago), and he touched on a subplot that was referenced by KAJ in his first autobiography:

His response to the circumstances was to pull even deeper within his shell. His already-cool approach to the game turned chilly. According to the story line, Magic then arrived and recharged the great center's competitive battery, an interpretation that irritates Abdul-Jabbar. Yes, Magic was influential, he would say time and again. But he contended that what really juiced him up was his new contract and the Lakers' decision to acquire two power forwards, Spencer Haywood and Jim Chones, to help him in the frontcourt.


From Giant Steps:

75-76
Spoiler:
The Lakers didn’t look to be too good that year-they had traded three excellent prospects and their center to get me-but I was happy to be with them. We trained at a college facility in LA, and though nobody likes training camp, I’d always come out smiling. “What are you so happy about in this funky little gym?” a teammates asked as we were leaving a particularly tough practice.

“Just think if this funky little gum was in Wisconsin and there was snow in tomorrow’s forecast,” I told him.

The Lakers had Lucius and Gail Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, but power forward was a problem, and the bench provided minimal support. I took a lot of heat in the papers, supposed to score, rebound, and bring a championship to LA all by myself. I did try. I felt, returning to the city and, it seemed, to the public eye, that I had something to prove. I led the league in rebounds and blocked shots and was second in scoring, but the team was the NBA’s second to worst in defense, and we finished fourth in our division. I won the MVP for the fourth time, but it was not enough. I’ve said often that an individual’s play cannot carry one team or consistently beat another, and the 1975-76 campaign bears me out; I had the best statistical season of my career, and we missed the playoffs by two games.


76-77
Spoiler:
The Lakers were prepared that next fall. Working with a private coach named Pete Newell, forward Kermit Washington had spent the summer learning how to provide muscle under the boards. This rejuvenated Kermit was just what we needed. If I’m going to intimidate inside, switch off and help my teammates with my mobility, we’re going to need someone with the strength and tenacity to grab the rebounds from all those missed shots. Kermit was every bit that man. On offense, if the other team tried to double-team me with the power forward, they left Kermit alone for more rebounds, which was suichide. He had developed into a disciplined player, and his solidity freed me to move around even more, save in the knowledge that he was taking care of business underneath.

Lucius and Cazzie were back, and we had added Don Chaney in place of Gail Goodrich, so our defense was greatly improved. We moved from seventeenth in NBA team defense to fourth, and our offense remained potent. The season was going along fine; we had the best record in the league, until injury struck. Kermit went down with a knee in February 1977, and in March, Lucius got hurt again. Two of our starting five had to sit on the sidelines for the entire playoffs.

The playoffs are a time when strengths are solidified and weaknesses exploited. Without Kermit to crash for rebounds, we were vulnerable off the boards, and without Lucius, our offense suffered. We managed to beat Golden State in the opening round, but it took us seven games, and then we came up against the Portland Trail Blazers.

At full strength, Portland and the Lakers matched up excellently. We had beaten them three out of four during the regular season. Their backcourt of Lionel Hollins and Dave Twardzik was quick and smart, as were Lucius and Chaney. Forward Bob Gross had a nice shot and an uncanny court sense, almost like eyes in the back of his head; Cazzie was going fine for us. At power forward Maurice Lucas was having an All-Star year, both scoring and getting his tough rebounds. Kermit matched him, and they battled when they met.


77-78
Spoiler:
The classic in this system of selective justice was the case of Kermit Washington.

Kermit was a triumph of the work ethic. He came out of college as a first-round draft pick with a great body and fine determination but short on technique and basketball skills. During three undistinguished years with the Lakers, he enrolled in a summer training program with former San Francisco University coach Pete Newell and, through pure hard work and determination developed himself into one of the league’s premier power forwards. He was strong and tough without being brutal. He was also a sensitive man who was always working to make his team win.

Kermit now has the reputation of a killer. It’s not that way. I saw the whole scene unfold right in front of me.

We were playing the Houston Rockets, in Houston, two months after i had punched out Benson. The rockets were a moderately talented team with a thin bench, and they relied on outside shooting and rebounding for their chance at success. When they went with their big front line of Rudy Tomjanovich, Moses Malone, and Kevin Kunnert they could be tough underneath. We had set up our offense and missed the host, the ball rebounding out and the Rockets taking off on a fast break the other way. I had been caught moving in for the offensive rebound, so I was near the backboard, trailing the play. Kunnert and Kermit had been boxing each other out, hustling for the gal, and when it had bounced away from them Kermit had grabbed Kunnert’s waistband to keep him from getting up court. Kunnert, who is white, had gotten mad and thrown first a left elbow that hit Kermit in the shoulder and then followed it with a right cross that caught him on the side of his head. You don’t do that to Kermit. Kunnert started to run downcourt, but Kermit chased him, grabbed him by the shorts, turned him around and started to hit him. Kevin can’t fight very well, at least he didn’t show much against Kermit who does know how to handle himself. Kermit was in a rage; he would not be blindsided, would allow no one to cheap-shot him, and was going to impress that point on Kunnert in terms he would remember.

I ran to court and grabbed Kunnert. When breaking up a fight between someone you do know and someone you don’t, Ive always found it to most effective to lock onto the stranger; first it prevents your friend from getting hurt, and second, you can reason with your friend, talk to him while shielding him off his opponent with your body. No way you’re going to talk down to an angry man you don’t know; at least, with your body between them, you stand a chance of cooling a friend into lucidity.

I grabbed Kunnert in a bear hug and swung him around to protect him. At that moment Rudy Tomjanovoch came running up from Kermit’s blind side to do exactly what I’d done, hold Kermit and calm things down. Unfortunately, Kermit sensed Rudy behind him, thought of it instantaneously as another attack, turned and threw an absolutely crushing right hand. Rudy ran full speed into Kermit’s fist. My back was turned momentarily, but I’ve seen videotapes of the blow and it’s terrifying. I did hear it, however. From three feet away it sounded like a watermelon had been dropped onto a concrete floor. I spun to look, and even as Rudy was going down, there was blood pouring out of his face, all this blood on the floor. Kermit had stove his whole face in.

Kermit is not a vicious man, he hadn’t meant to injure Rudy. He had reacted with force to what he’d felt was a serious threat. That much was obvious immediately. The league saw it differently. For the second time in two months a white player had been knocked cold by a black, and they were not going to stand for it. There were tapes of the entire incident, and they were shown over and over again on local news broadcasts around the country, made it onto the networks, this ****** almost killing the white boy. The beginning of the play, the first punch thrown by Kunnert and the cause of the whole chain of events, was also available on tape, but that was given no play. This was Violence in Sports, no retaliation or self-defense; this was ******s on the rampage, and it had to be stopped.

Kunnert was never disciplined. Kermit was suspended without pay for twenty-six games and fined $10,000. What that said to me, and to all the black players in the league, was that if somebody white punches you out,you play defense and hope that the refs will try and stop it at some point. If not, just realize that the NBA needs white players to keep the white fans interested and the arenas filled and the networks on the line. Count on no support from the people who run this business.

Before he could play another game, Kermit was traded. He and Don Chaney and a number-one draft choice were sent to the Boston Celtics for Charlie Scott. It was a terrible trade for the Lakers. We lost a solid chunk of our defense and some future for another guard. Our alternate rebounding fell to a white forward, Don Ford, and died; I got double-teamed by power forwards again; we had to go another year and a half undermanned off the boards.

More importantly than the Lakers’ fortunes on the court was something I only came to find out four years later. A highly visible and influential man in basketball told Kermit that the league owners forced Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke to make that trade because they would not tolerate having me and Kermit on the same team. Here were two extremely powerful black men who had both severely beaten white players, and the owners wanted us separated because they would not have us intimidating the rest of the league. That’s hard to prove and easy to deny, but I fully believe it.


78-79
Spoiler:
I spent the next year trying to absorb the changes I was going through. I had a standoff with the press; they were too intimidated to ask me the questions I wanted to answer, while I was still too wary to invite them to take a closer look. Something must have registered within the Lakers organization, however, because I was named team captain. I was pleased and honored, though I never quite went and said so. I’d always been one to lead by example, and that’s the way I chose to express myself. Rousing speeches get old early, consistent full effort is there every day for everyone to see.

The Lakers of 1978-79 had the same strategic weakness as the year before, however: no power forward. When I play defense and block or intimidate shots, there must be someone on the sheet who can grab them. Much as I try, I can’t be expected to jump out, cause the miss, and then turn around and have the rebound fall my way every time. I need to be complemented by a strong rebounder. The 1978-79 Lakers went with two small forwards, Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley, and a thin bench. We placed third in our division and met the Denver Nuggets in the opening round of the playoffs.

Denver had beaten us three games out of four during the regular season with their run-and-gun offense. We split the first two playoff games, losing on their court by five and winning at home by twelve, and had to play the deciding game in Denver. The press really kicked us around. The day of the game the Los Angeles Times went out on a limb. They said Jerry West was not a capable coach, Abdul-Jabbar was not a leader, the Lakers had no leadership, and they would lose that final game to the Nuggets. I knew we didn’t have the strength to win the championship, but I was not about to be degraded. We went out and beat the Nuggets 112-111 on their home court and surprised the **** out of everybody.

Then all sorts of things started going on. Ted Dawson, a TV sportscaster whom I suspected might not like me either, told his biers, “Hey, you guys should send Kareem and the Lakers a telegram or mailgram, let them know how much you appreciate them,” because what we’d been reading in the papers, he said, wasn’t what was happening. The team had flown straight from Denver to Seattle for the start of the second round, and the next morning I was presented with stacks of mail. I was amazed. You mean, these people really do appreciate me?! I kept the whole load; I still have them. I called Cheryl to tell her the astounding news, and she said “I told you so.” I felt great. I started looking at faces in the crowd and realizing that there could be a lot of friends up there, that the people who stopped me for autographs might be really interested in getting them. If someone wanted to shake my hand, hey, I’d do it.

Of course, all that well-wishing didn’t mean we still weren’t a couple of guys short. Seattle pounded us off the boards again, beat us in five games, and went on and took the NBA title. But that last Western Union barrage really made my year.


So going back to that quote above from The Show, Chones (29.2 MPG for 82 G) and Haywood (20.3 MPG for 76G) did play a lot of minutes in the regular season, but Haywood's MPG in the playoffs dropped to 13.2, and he was "suspended"/released in the middle of the Finals.

That first year in particular, since his role was very much up in the air (as both his college coach Heathcote and Lakers coach Westhead weren't sure what to do with him at first it seems), it appears Magic played a lot of his minutes in the at the four offensively in the playoffs (see third quote below), and from the start they had viewed him as a four defensively (first quote).

At Michigan State
Spoiler:
To his credit, Heathcote immediately recognized Johnson's unique talent. Although the Michigan State program was short on big men, the coach didn't hesitate to run the big freshman at the point.

JUD HEATHCOTE: "I still remember the first game that Earvin played. We were playing Central Michigan. I think he had seven points and about eight turnovers, and everyone said, `Heathcote's crazy. He's got Earvin handling the ball in the break; he's got him playing guard out there on offense; he's got him running the break; he's got him doing so many different things. Nobody can do all those things.' It's just that Earvin was nervous playing that first game and he didn't play like he played in practice. Actually, he was very comfortable able in all those areas. When he went to the pros and right away they had him playing forward, I said sooner or later they'll realize that Earvin can play anywhere where on defense and he has to have the ball on offense."

The Lakers needed many things in the fall of 1979. They needed rebounding help for Kareem in the frontcourt, and as Heathcote projected, Magic filled in nicely as a power forward on the defensive end. The Lakers also needed help for Norm Nixon in the backcourt. And although Nixon was already a young, promising point guard, the Lakers eventually moved him to shooting guard, and as Heathcote also projected, they eventually gave Magic the ball at the point.


Regular season
Spoiler:
PAUL WESTHEAD: "Because we had guys shooting the ball, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, or Kareem. Magic would go get their misses and put it back, or give it back to them, so everybody loves somebody who's gonna go to the offensive glass and get your missed shot. Slowly, in year two and year three, he began to run the point, then slowly began shooting the ball more. He was smart enough to say, `When I come in as a rookie, I'm gonna rebound the ball.' He was a power forward."

When Johnson did play the point, the veterans complained that he was controlling trolling the ball too much, keeping it to himself. And his no-look passes kept catching teammates unaware.

JACK RAMSAY, FORMER PORTLAND COACH: "I didn't think Magic could be a point guard. Jack McKinney did, who was his first coach. Jack had been my assistant at Portland, then went down to the Lakers to take that job. He told me he was going to make Magic the point guard. I said, `Good luck.' I thought he was going to be more of a small forward. But, you see, Magic worked on his game. His first year he couldn't dribble with his left hand. I remember a game in Portland we got nine turnovers from him by forcing him to the left side of the floor and making him play with his left hand. The next year you couldn't do that. Each year he added something to his game. Magic was such a great competitor he knew what he had to work on and did it."

Norm Nixon, who had run the point since being drafted by the Lakers in 1978, had rather selflessly given up that role and moved to shooting guard. Nicknamed Mr. Big, his presence took some pressure off the rookie and made his adjustment easier.

JACK RAMSAY: "In that rookie year, Nixon had more assists than Magic did. But by the end of that year, by the time they played Philadelphia in Game 6, Magic was doing everything."

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR: "You talk about people that weren't given their due. Norm could handle the ball as well as Earvin. Norm was faster up the court, and he had just as good a vision. But Norm couldn't get to the basket like Earvin because he didn't have the size. But when other teams tried to pressure sure Earvin and he gave the ball to Norm and let him run the break, then Norm and Jamaal, that was an incredible break right there. If the other teams tried to stop Earvin, that gave Norm and Jamaal the open court. They got us a lot of points. We went to two world championships that way."

RON CARTER, FORMER LAKER: "Magic and Norman don't get along. I mean they get along, but it's always about the court. So there's always this little petty inside thing going on. We're in Philly, Norm's late. The bus has to leave at 11, and Norm is a 10:59 kind of guy. Everyone's on the bus but Norm, and Magic is yelling from the back of the bus, `Let's go. Let's go.' And somebody says, `Well, Mr. Big's not here.' So Norm finally comes out, Mr. Cool, Mr. Last Minute, Mr. Never Break a Sweat. He gets on the bus, and somebody says, `Hey, Big. The rook was trying to get you fined.' And Norm says, `Well, yeah, he's young. I expect that out of young people.' This is the kind of stuff that's going on every day between Norm and Magic. Just little digs trying to get at each other. It got ugly. It manifested itself the latter part of that first season, when Magic played all the positions and did all the things that he did. I think it manifested in Magic's mind as, `I don't need Norm. I can do this at the point guard. We don't need Norm.' We had two great point guards, and Norm took all the pressure off of Magic. But the problem was, in that locker room it was Norman's locker room. As long as Norm Nixon was there, it was gonna be Norm's locker room because of Norm's persona. It wasn't just about having the ball. It was always about, `Who you gonna follow, me or Norm?' Kareem in a very discreet sort of way made it clear that Norm was his guy. Just subtly. Westhead might say, 'All right, run the play.' And Magic would grab the ball to run the play, and Kareem would slap it out of his hands and hand it to Norm. Just little stuff like that. You could see it irritate Magic. Eventually there was going to be this rift. You could see it coming."

"Magic had to learn to keep everybody in the game," Nixon told the New York Times later that season. "He was losing 'em. He had to make an effort, and he did. I like playing with him much more now. We complement one another."

PAUL WESTHEAD: "It was Jack McKinney's feeling that they should share the guard role. So they would play off each other. It was kind of an even deal. At least half the time Nixon was free to run the team."

Very quickly opponents realized that the Lakers had the best backcourt in the league. Combined with a dominant offensive center, they presented a formidable dable challenge. Kareem won the league's MVP for an unprecedented sixth time (Boston's Bill Russell had won five), and the Lakers topped the Western Conference with a 60-22 record.


The Playoffs/Finals
Spoiler:
Bird's Celtics, meanwhile, had run aground against Julius Erving and the Philadelphia 76ers in the Eastern Conference Finals and lost 4-1. Coached by Billy Cunningham, the 76ers had finished 59-23, just two games behind Boston during the regular season. They brought a strong, veteran lineup to face the Lakers for the 1980 title. Julius Erving was still at the top of his high-flying flying game. "I don't think about my dunk shots," he had said during the Boston series. "I just make sure I have a place to land." But Kareem quickly overmatched Philadelphia's centers, Caldwell Jones and Darryl Dawkins, and put L.A. in position to win the championship. In Game I in the Forum he scored 33 points, with 14 rebounds, 6 blocks, and 5 assists, to push the Lakers ers to a 109-102 win. Nixon had 23 points and Wilkes finished with 20 while doing an excellent double-team job on Erving. "Every time I caught the ball I had two people on me," the 76ers star said afterward. Magic, too, was a factor tor with 16 points, 9 assists, and 10 rebounds.

In the earlier rounds of the playoffs, Westhead had begun playing Johnson at power forward on offense, while Nixon and sixth man Michael Cooper ran the backcourt. "That's our best lineup," the coach told reporters.

Kareem scored 38 in Game 2, but Philly's team effort was impressive. They virtually shut down the vaunted Lakers fast break and did it without fouling. The 76ers led by as much as 20 in the fourth period, but the Lakers raced back, trimming the lead to 105-104 late in the game. Then Bobby Jones popped in a jumper with seven seconds left, and that was enough for a 107-104 Philly win that tied the series at one-all.

The Lakers blamed the loss on the "distractions" of Spencer Haywood, who had fallen asleep during pregame stretching exercises. Once an ABA star and now a Lakers reserve, Haywood had been disgruntled most of the season, at one point saying that Westhead's reasons for not playing him more were "lies." The Forum fans loved Haywood, and he often encouraged their affection tion by waving a towel to urge their chanting his name. Game 2 brought the final straw, however, when he picked a fight with teammate Brad Holland. Afterward Westhead suspended Haywood for the remainder of the season, which left the Lakers thin in the frontcourt just when they needed the help.

Westhead made two key defensive switches for Game 3. First, he moved Jim Chones to cover Dawkins. With only the nonshooting Caldwell Jones to worry about, Kareem parked his big frame in the lane and dared the 76ers to drive in. Then Westhead switched Magic to covering Lionel Hollins on the perimeter, which stifled Philly's outside game. The result was a 111-101 Lakers ers win. Kareem had again given the 76ers a headache-33 points, 14 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 3 assists. And once again he got plenty of help from Nixon, Johnson, and Wilkes.

As expected, Philly lashed back for Game 4. The lead switched back and forth through the first three periods, then the 76ers took control in the fourth. Dr. J unleashed one of his more memorable moves, scooting around Lakers reserve Mark Landsberger on the right to launch himself. In midair, headed toward the hoop, Erving encountered Kareem. Somehow the Doctor moved behind the backboard and freed his right arm behind Kareem to put it in. It was pure magic, the Philly variety, and the 76ers went on to even the series at two-all with a 105-102 win.

All of which served to set up a marvelous Game 5 back at the Forum. L.A. clutched to a two-point lead late in the third quarter when Kareem twisted his left ankle and went to the locker room. At that juncture, he had 26 points and was carrying the Lakers despite an uneven performance from Magic. But the rookie took over with the captain out. He scored six points and added an assist as L.A. moved up by eight.

That was enough to buy time for Abdul-Jabbar, who limped back into the game early in the fourth period. His appearance aroused the Forum regulars, and despite the bad ankle, he acknowledged their support by scoring 14 points down the stretch. With the game tied at 103 and 33 seconds left, Kareem scored, drew the foul, and finished Philly by completing the three-point point play. L.A. won 108-103 and took the series lead, 3-2.

That next morning, Thursday, May 15, the Lakers arrived at Los Angeles International Airport for their flight to Philly and learned that Kareem wouldn't be making the trip. His ankle was so bad, doctors told him to stay home and try to get ready for Game 7. Westhead was worried about the effect the news would have on the team.

In a private meeting, the coach told Magic he would have to move to center. No problem, the young guard replied. He had played center in high school and loved challenges such as the one he was about to face.

MAGIC JOHNSON: "Paul's fear was that we couldn't match up with Dawkins and Caldwell Jones. I told him I could play Caldwell Jones, and he looked at me like, `Jesus, he's seven feet tall!' He couldn't believe that I could match up. I told him, `Coach, on the other end, what are they gonna do with us? Who's gonna guard the guys we're gonna have?' And that's what he couldn't understand. stand. Because once we got the ball, we were gone. We beat Philadelphia in the transition game because they couldn't keep up."


Game 6
Spoiler:
The Lakers, meanwhile, were almost too loose, Westhead feared. Magic was his normal jammin', dancin' self. About the only thing that punctured his mood was reporters' questions about his thoughts for Game 7. It was perfect, he told his teammates. Nobody expects us to win here. In reality, most of the Lakers figured they didn't have a chance.

But when they arrived at the Spectrum that Friday evening they were greeted by the sounds of carpenters hammering out an awards presentation platform. The NBA rules required that Philadelphia provide some facility to present the trophy, just in case L.A. happened to win.

"It should be interesting," Westhead told his players before the game. "Pure democracy. We'll go with the slim line."

Which meant Magic, Chones, and Wilkes in the frontcourt while Nixon and Cooper took care of things up top. Kareem, who was sprawled on his bed back at his Bel-Air home, sent a last-minute message. Go for it. With that last blast pushing them sky-high, the Lakers took the floor.

PAUL WESTHEAD: "We were going out for the center jump and we said, `Let's go.' The last thing, Jim Chones looked at me and said, `Now, coach, I'm jumping center, right?' I said, `No, Magic is jumping center.' We wanted it to appear that he was the center."

Jim HILL: "I remember Brent Musburger was doing the play by play. He started laughing. 'And the rookie Magic Johnson from Michigan State is going to be in the center circle to jump ball.' Next thing you know Magic's a center, he's a guard, he's a forward. He was just everywhere."

Magic grinned broadly as he stepped up to jump center against Dawkins. He lost the tip, but the 76ers seemed puzzled. L.A. went up 7-0, then 11-4.

PAUL WESTHEAD: "On the first play, he came down in the low post and took a turnaround hook shot. He took a Kareem hook shot. What happened the rest of the game, he played everywhere. He played guard. He played forward. Everyone sees him as playing center. It was a psychological thing. Everyone saw Magic as the center. That helped us. People forget Jamaal Wilkes had 37 points in that game."

Finally Philly broke back in the second quarter and took a 52-44 lead. Westhead head stopped play and told them to collapse in the middle. Steve Mix had come off Philly's bench to knife inside for 16 points. The Lakers squeezed in and closed to 60-all at the half. Then they opened the third period with a 14-0 run, keyed by Wilkes's 16 points in the period. But the 76ers drew it close again in the fourth.

With only five minutes left, it was 103-10 1, Lakers. Westhead called time again and made one last attempt to charge up his tired players. They responded with a run over the next 76 seconds to go up by seven. Then Magic scored nine points down the stretch to end it, 123-107.

Alas, the Lakers were too exhausted to celebrate. Wilkes had a career-best outing, scoring 37 points with 10 rebounds. And Chones lived up to his vow to shut down the middle. He finished with 11 points and 10 rebounds. He held Dawkins to a Chocolate Blunder type of game, 14 points and four rebounds.

For the Lakers, even Landsberger had 10 boards. And Cooper put in 16 points. But the big news, of course, was Magic, who simply was. He scored 42, including all 14 of his free throw attempts. He had 15 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, and a block.

"It was amazing, just amazing," said Erving, who led Philly with 27. "Magic was outstanding. Unreal," agreed Philly guard Doug Collins, who was injured and watched from the sideline. "I knew he was good, but I never realized he was great."

MICHAEL COOPER: "Magic made a pass one time in that '80 series against Philadelphia. He threw a bounce pass three-quarters of the court on the run to Jamaal Wilkes. He threw it between about five players, and to this day, I still don't know how he got it there. In training camp, he always used to say to the rookies, `Whenever you get around the basket, keep your hands up,' because he'd knock your head off, because he'd get the ball there when you didn't think he could get it there."

PHIL JASNER, LONGTIME PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS BASKETBALL WRITER: "With Magic that night, you knew you were watching history. He didn't really play center; he jumped center. After a while his performance became psychological. He took that game over, whether he was bringing the ball up the court, rebounding, [or] blocking a shot. He was mesmerizing."

Despite Abdul-Jabbar's fine performance in the first five games, Johnson was named the series MVP. How had they done it without their center? Johnson was asked. "Without Kareem," he said, "we couldn't play the halfcourt and think defensively. We had to play the full court and take our chances."


Obviously looking back, you wanted the ball in his hands, and giving him the keys to the offense paid dividend over the decade. But it looks like during 79-80, Magic filled some of the holes that Kareem's teams were lacking for much of his tenure with the Lakers.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1891 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Jan 4, 2016 11:42 pm

Random question, does it concern anybody that SRS is not per 100 possessions? If we normalize and take z-scores, or adjust for pace, it makes it more directly comparable to stuff like on/off, RAPM, etc, but then we lose a lot of the versatility of the stat (since it's used a lot for subsets of the season, and we don't have complete data, namely FGA, rebounds, turnovers, to produce pace estimates for every game in seasons prior to 85-86).
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1892 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Jan 5, 2016 1:09 am

fpliii wrote:Random question, does it concern anybody that SRS is not per 100 possessions? If we normalize and take z-scores, or adjust for pace, it makes it more directly comparable to stuff like on/off, RAPM, etc, but then we lose a lot of the versatility of the stat (since it's used a lot for subsets of the season, and we don't have complete data, namely FGA, rebounds, turnovers, to produce pace estimates for every game in seasons prior to 85-86).


Hmm. I do wonder if SRS needs a pace adjustment considering the source material does not depend on pace- ie. You play a game at a pace of 95 and the score is 93-88 vs. a game with a pace of 105 with a score of 103-98. Point differential is 5 in both cases while the offensive prowess of the winning team is overstated in game 2 relatively speaking. Ie. You "score more" when the pace is faster, but you don't "win more".

Since both teams are playing at the exact same pace in each individual game, the MOV would seem to depend only on the quality of team (unless you get into hard-to-define concepts like "playing at their pace" etc.) it's hard to see how the pace of play would actually influence MOV.

Also I think pace adjusted MOV would just be net (ORTG-DRTG), no? Then make the HCA adjustment.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1893 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Jan 5, 2016 3:52 am

Houston game got delayed because some fan was pointing a laser pointer at Harden while he was shooting a free throw. The Houston coach got a technical during the incident and the poor security guard had to figure out which fan in a huge section was using the pointer. One of the stranger things I've seen in an NBA game.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1894 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jan 5, 2016 6:11 am

I was taken aback when I saw that Redick is at 21.2 pts per 36, .64 TS%.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1895 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Jan 5, 2016 7:58 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:Houston game got delayed because some fan was pointing a laser pointer at Harden while he was shooting a free throw. The Houston coach got a technical during the incident and the poor security guard had to figure out which fan in a huge section was using the pointer. One of the stranger things I've seen in an NBA game.


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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1896 » by ceiling raiser » Tue Jan 5, 2016 8:06 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
fpliii wrote:Random question, does it concern anybody that SRS is not per 100 possessions? If we normalize and take z-scores, or adjust for pace, it makes it more directly comparable to stuff like on/off, RAPM, etc, but then we lose a lot of the versatility of the stat (since it's used a lot for subsets of the season, and we don't have complete data, namely FGA, rebounds, turnovers, to produce pace estimates for every game in seasons prior to 85-86).


Hmm. I do wonder if SRS needs a pace adjustment considering the source material does not depend on pace- ie. You play a game at a pace of 95 and the score is 93-88 vs. a game with a pace of 105 with a score of 103-98. Point differential is 5 in both cases while the offensive prowess of the winning team is overstated in game 2 relatively speaking. Ie. You "score more" when the pace is faster, but you don't "win more".

Since both teams are playing at the exact same pace in each individual game, the MOV would seem to depend only on the quality of team (unless you get into hard-to-define concepts like "playing at their pace" etc.) it's hard to see how the pace of play would actually influence MOV.

Also I think pace adjusted MOV would just be net (ORTG-DRTG), no? Then make the HCA adjustment.

Well we'd need a SOS adjustment too I think. But yeah, that's pretty much what it is.

I do agree though, because a one possession game is still a one possession game, and a two possession game is still a two possession game, regardless of pace.

As I said though, making adjustments makes it impossible for us to calculate pace-adjusted SRS for portions of the season (which is useful, especially since a team's best five players never will play 82 games apiece).
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1897 » by Quotatious » Tue Jan 5, 2016 8:44 pm

viewtopic.php?t=1047881

Just stumbled across this Magic vs LeBron thread from August 2010, and I'm completely shocked that basically everybody was saying that Magic was easily better, considering that LeBron already had his GOAT level '09 and '10 seasons, under his belt.

Shows how much impact rings have on people's perception of players. Let's hypothetically assume that LeBron already had his 2012 and 2013 seasons behind him, at that point in time, but not 2009 and 2010 - I'm sure most people would admit that he's very close to Magic or even his equal, which doesn't really make much sense to me, as his 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013 seasons are all roughly interchangeable (well, maybe '10 is a little below the other three, due to his somewhat disappointing playoff series against the Celtics, but it's certainly not far behind).
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1898 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 5, 2016 9:51 pm

There is also a completeness bias. Players tend to be rated on how they would be if they declined toward ordinariness from that point on when they are playing. Even someone like Curry isn't rated on all time lists as if he will continue at the same level but as if he will decline. It's a reasonable way to look at things which avoids overrating the short term wonders with big early seasons like a TMac or Derric Rose but if a player continues to play at that MVP level that LeBron has, the earlier seasons get upgraded from amazing but possible anomaly to expected dominance and the evaluation rises with it.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1899 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Jan 5, 2016 10:05 pm

Quotatious wrote:viewtopic.php?t=1047881

Just stumbled across this Magic vs LeBron thread from August 2010, and I'm completely shocked that basically everybody was saying that Magic was easily better, considering that LeBron already had his GOAT level '09 and '10 seasons, under his belt.

Shows how much impact rings have on people's perception of players. Let's hypothetically assume that LeBron already had his 2012 and 2013 seasons behind him, at that point in time, but not 2009 and 2010 - I'm sure most people would admit that he's very close to Magic or even his equal, which doesn't really make much sense to me, as his 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013 seasons are all roughly interchangeable (well, maybe '10 is a little below the other three, due to his somewhat disappointing playoff series against the Celtics, but it's certainly not far behind).


It's funny because you're seeing the exact same resistance with Curry right now. Aside from a few people willing to jump out in front, many are still holding back and saying they would take players like Wade/Kobe over him... I imagine if Curry continues at this level we could see a similar thing if we pull up threads from 2016.

Good find.
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Re: PC Board OT thread 

Post#1900 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jan 6, 2016 4:49 am

Game tonight just illustrated why Boogie Cousins is the most frustrating player in the entire Association. Just has the ability to do anything and everything on the court. Can be completely dominating and then completely brain-dead. This guy should be one of the 5 best players in the league. He's that talented. I wonder if he can ever figure it out in that Sacramento mess.
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