Trade Deadline Countdown....January 2016

[TASTIC]

Brandon Knight is one of those players that ends up in teams like Charlotte.

How far off are we from having other teams saying

Player X is one of those players that ends up in teams like Phoenix

[Frank Lee]

Brandon Knight is one of those players that ends up in teams like Charlotte.

What does that mean ???

BK has ended up here. You really think someone is going to relieve us of the $57 mill obliged to him ?

I would find new respect for McDontdothatagain if he was able to find a deal for BK, let alone actually pull the trigger on his prized #2 FA signing. A dangerous pattern is forming.

[TASTIC]

Brandon Knight is one of those players that ends up in teams like Charlotte.

What does that mean ???

BK has ended up here. You really think someone is going to relieve us of the $57 mill obliged to him ?

I would find new respect for McDontdothatagain if he was able to find a deal for BK, let alone actually pull the trigger on his prized #2 FA signing. A dangerous pattern is forming.

Frank, you're new Suns GM....GO!

- decide what to do with Hornacek
- who you want to keep and/or trade
- come up with some realistic trades
- who are you looking at in FA next year?

I'm really curious what you'd do cos I've seen criticism of McD etc but not many fan-fueled rosterbation from you!

[Frank Lee]

Why..? I am not the one who has the answers. I am the one of many thousands who this organization needs to please. Their fan base is eroding with natural attrition for the uninteresting unlikable product being put on the court. New fans ? Ha... who would select Phnx at this point.


But I will give it some thought.

I wouldn't fire Hornecek though. Nor would I rehire him. I am half way thinking he wont re-apply anyway. This is McDetonator's mess...

[Mulhollanddrive]

Given every top 5 player would be in demand from every single team, I'm surprised no-ones done (or been caught) doing some nifty accounting, oh what my mom owns a $20m house now, thanks.

[bwgood77]

The way things are going now with this team, we are a lock for top three Pong ball allotment, but truthfully probably have an excellent chance of number one, certainly number two.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yup. We are the worst team playing basketball right now. I think we have a real shot at the 2nd or 3rd seed in the tankathon if this continues. It's kind of exciting, because despite what many think on here, I don't believe we're anywhere close to as untalented as these other teams. We were never legitimate contenders anyways, so the net result of this year could benefit us if we get a great player we otherwise couldn't have when the season ends, and we add it to a team that is drastically underachieving, which can pay real dividends once the ship is righted.

Ben Simmons is no joke, he has great court awareness and passing skills, he can be a superstar. We are only .5 games from 3rd, 3 games from 2nd and 8 games from 1st


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I think you miss the point about their being a lottery, but I do agree that Ben Simmons can be a star. If he can learn to shoot he can be a superstar. He can so absolutely everything but shoot. Surround him with premier shooters, he is great. If we get him, you throw him out there as a Power/Point forward with Bledsoe, a better defending Booker and Warren, and even Leuer at the 5, that team could be brutal offensively. If you want a presence in the middle OR if Simmons learns to shoot, you put Len or Chandler at 5.

[jcsunsfan]

Yup. We are the worst team playing basketball right now. I think we have a real shot at the 2nd or 3rd seed in the tankathon if this continues. It's kind of exciting, because despite what many think on here, I don't believe we're anywhere close to as untalented as these other teams. We were never legitimate contenders anyways, so the net result of this year could benefit us if we get a great player we otherwise couldn't have when the season ends, and we add it to a team that is drastically underachieving, which can pay real dividends once the ship is righted.

Ben Simmons is no joke, he has great court awareness and passing skills, he can be a superstar. We are only .5 games from 3rd, 3 games from 2nd and 8 games from 1st


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I think you miss the point about their being a lottery, but I do agree that Ben Simmons can be a star. If he can learn to shoot he can be a superstar. He can so absolutely everything but shoot. Surround him with premier shooters, he is great. If we get him, you throw him out there as a Power/Point forward with Bledsoe, a better defending Booker and Warren, and even Leuer at the 5, that team could be brutal offensively. If you want a presence in the middle OR if Simmons learns to shoot, you put Len or Chandler at 5.

He is a 75% free throw shooter, so he has some shooting skills. The primary knock on him is that he doesnt shoot from outside much. But he seems to be able to get to the rim at will, and is supremely efficient when he does. So, at this point, he has no reason to shoot from the outside. If you have equal ability to get a 15 footer or a layup, you take the layup.

His outside shooting is basically unknown at this moment.

[AtheJ415]

Brandon Knight is one of those players that ends up in teams like Charlotte.

What does that mean ???

BK has ended up here. You really think someone is going to relieve us of the $57 mill obliged to him ?

I would find new respect for McDontdothatagain if he was able to find a deal for BK, let alone actually pull the trigger on his prized #2 FA signing. A dangerous pattern is forming.

Frank, you're new Suns GM....GO!

- decide what to do with Hornacek
- who you want to keep and/or trade
- come up with some realistic trades
- who are you looking at in FA next year?

I'm really curious what you'd do cos I've seen criticism of McD etc but not many fan-fueled rosterbation from you!

Better yet, I want to hear what McD should've done. It's easy to say this team is unlikeable and sucks. It's another to say how the team he walked into should really be much better at this point. Let's see what we really should've turned Scola, Gortat, Goran, and Dudley into.

[bigfoot]

What does that mean ???

BK has ended up here. You really think someone is going to relieve us of the $57 mill obliged to him ?

I would find new respect for McDontdothatagain if he was able to find a deal for BK, let alone actually pull the trigger on his prized #2 FA signing. A dangerous pattern is forming.

Frank, you're new Suns GM....GO!

- decide what to do with Hornacek
- who you want to keep and/or trade
- come up with some realistic trades
- who are you looking at in FA next year?

I'm really curious what you'd do cos I've seen criticism of McD etc but not many fan-fueled rosterbation from you!

Better yet, I want to hear what McD should've done. It's easy to say this team is unlikeable and sucks. It's another to say how the team he walked into should really be much better at this point. Let's see what we really should've turned Scola, Gortat, Goran, and Dudley into.

1) Well Gortat for Okafor and Ennis really was a poor trade. We should have just kept Gortat and tried to resign him. Right now he's making less than Chandler and would have been good a mentor to Len.

2) McD should have just kept Goran and drafted a rookie replacement. Right now we are looking at a 2018 and a 2021 1st round draft pick. Typical rookies take 3-4 years to make a difference so I don't expect any payoff for those two for five to ten years.

3) Getting rid of Scola and Dudley was the right thing to do.

4) He should have held onto Ish Smith. He was a glue guy for the second unit

5) No need to sign Knight

6) Should have dumped Kief this summer for chump change but glad he got rid of Marcus.

We would be sitting with

Bledsoe / Smith
Dragic / Booker? / Goodwin
Tucker / Warren
Leuer / Telly
Gortat / Len

Lakers 1st round pick

Of course this is all hindsight

[saintEscaton]

Frank, you're new Suns GM....GO!

- decide what to do with Hornacek
- who you want to keep and/or trade
- come up with some realistic trades
- who are you looking at in FA next year?

I'm really curious what you'd do cos I've seen criticism of McD etc but not many fan-fueled rosterbation from you!

Better yet, I want to hear what McD should've done. It's easy to say this team is unlikeable and sucks. It's another to say how the team he walked into should really be much better at this point. Let's see what we really should've turned Scola, Gortat, Goran, and Dudley into.

1) Well Gortat for Okafor and Ennis really was a poor trade. We should have just kept Gortat and tried to resign him. Right now he's making less than Chandler and would have been good a mentor to Len.

2) McD should have just kept Goran and drafted a rookie replacement. Right now we are looking at a 2018 and a 2021 1st round draft pick. Typical rookies take 3-4 years to make a difference so I don't expect any payoff for those two for five to ten years.

3) Getting rid of Scola and Dudley was the right thing to do.

4) He should have held onto Ish Smith. He was a glue guy for the second unit

5) No need to sign Knight

6) Should have dumped Kief this summer for chump change but glad he got rid of Marcus.

Bledsoe / Smith
Dragic / Booker? / Goodwin
Tucker / Warren
Leuer / Telly
Gortat / Len

Lakers 1st round pick

Of course this is all hindsight

Agreed with everything except I was fine dealing Goran considering we got a decent bounty for a disgruntled soon to be UFA who we had no leverage over walking for nothing.. In fact I would have blown it up earlier and sold higher on him coming off the fluke 113-14 season after we decided to not overpay Frye. Our success was predicated on the pick n' pop duo. We could have just kept Green around as our stopgap SG instead of mortgaging the future for a knee jerk acquisiton to save face. Trading for Knight accomplished nothing as we could have just signed in the summer and we didn't end up using his Bird Rights to exceed the cap because we signed Chandler out right.

[AtheJ415]

Spoiler:

Knight is not a near all star. He was in the all star conversation in the crappy east last year but wouldn't sniff it against guards in the west. Not even Bledsoe will, despite you saying it be so.

We were projected to win 36.5 games, and have certainly overachieved, but have had a disgruntled player taking us out of games early, and some boneheaded turnovers or end bounds passes by your near all star.

We do have some talent, and might be in the playoff conversation, but NOBODY except a few people here put us ahead of Utah or New Orleans, or the top six not including Dallas, but Dirk continues to play well, and we don't have anyone as good as him, and Wesley Matthews has recovered better than expected.

That's a big part of the problem. The owner, the FO, you, others, think this team is full of talent. We don't have a third team all nba guard like a couple years ago or the best pick n roll tandem in the league. That drove a lot of our success....in year one the team proved to have chemistry and it was torn to pieces. We are trying to regain some but it has basically been trying to swing for home runs, and miss, and miss other big names, and scramble for the scraps that are left. The last two offseasons and the last trade line were disasters.

Being an all star and having all star talent are 2 different things. Bledsoe has all star talent and played at an all star level this year. His numbers are unequivocally better than a couple guys who will make it. Yes, he won't make it, but that's a different conversation. Goran was top 5 in win shares and made 3rd team all nba but wasn't an all star that year. Kobe is having the worst year maybe ever and is going to make it. He made it as a youngin despite not even starting on his team simply because he was popular. A lot goes into that. Knight, in my opinion, has a hell of a lot of talent, which I would call near all star. He doesn't play like it this year for many reasons, which we've discussed on this board ad nauseum. But I think it's fair to say he's not performing up to his talent level, and within that statement it means his talent level is higher than what he's shown.

To characterize our season as lost relative to where we are now because of our early season issues with Markieff and the boneheaded plays by Knight is a big misnomer. That's why the playoffs may have been lost and explains why we might have been the 9 or 10 seed picking in the early teens, but it in no way explains where we are now, which is what I was discussing in my post when I said we can catch a 2 seed potentially and I'm excited about that.

Also, I'll say this: Those issues aren't talent-related. Markieff being disgruntled has nothing to do with Markieff's talent. Knight making a boneheaded play isn't because he's untalented. Those are both mental issues. Hell, Hornacek could've prevented both by: 1. Benching Markieff, but Hornacek kept playing him through his awfulness for no reason, then sat him, watched others drastically outperform him, and then miraculously played him again. 2. Not running game-deciding plays through Knight. But hell, Hornacek wasn't good at end of game scenarios even during Dragic's monster year. He's always struggled with that, but his defenders always make excuses for that, just like his lack of assists, lack of leadership, the constant lack of chemistry, and lack of respect he seems to command with almost everyone we add. The entire team is underperforming, which points to a much larger issue. Our coach is the 2nd biggest underperformer imo. A coach's job is so much more than X's and O's, and while Hornacek may be a smart guy, I've yet to see him be the locker room leader who commands respect and disciplines this team in the manner a coach should. It's been an issue our entire time here.

Now, we have reached a new low, and so either Bledsoe ought to be an MVP candidate and considered way more than an all-star given what's happened since he left, because he was the difference between getting blown out by the Lakers and losing to the 76ers and competing for the 8 or 9 seed, or perhaps the team has given up because our coach has been unable to get them to perform to their potential. You can't have it both ways. You can't say our star guard isn't a star, but then also use that as an excuse for why we have suddenly become the worst team in the NBA, all while absolving the coach. We have had a dramatic and epic fall off that teams that have lost stars simply haven't, and I don't see, for instance, Indy last year without Paul George as more talented than what we have right now.

I'm not sure why the playoffs somehow came into this. None of my previous post was about us making the playoffs. It was about us having way more talent than the other tanking teams. Utah certainly isn't one of those tanking teams. We have more talent than how we are playing right now, and therefore have no business having a shot at the 2 seed in the tankathon. I'm merely stating that, and that I'm happy for it because it may benefit us more in the long run than playing to our potential would have thanks to this high pick. Also, when it comes to a discussion of the playoffs in the current year, developed talent is the key. That is different from long-term talent that you'd want to build around. So the word talent means different things in those 2 contexts. The guys I labeled as keepers, as guys we must move, and as in-between are all based on long-term value and therefore includes undeveloped talent/ceiling, and not their short-term ability to help us succeed this season. Those are 2 very different discussions. Otherwise, Bledsoe is my keeper and not in between, for instance.

I agree we have some young talent, but even for the other tanking teams, I don't know how many fans outside of our forum, and many inside would take Booker, Len and Warren over Noel, Embiid and Okafor, or over Russell and Randle, or Wiggins, Towns, LaVine and Shabazz, or Greek Freak, Parker and Middleton. Perhaps you think our guys have more talent and that is fine.

Many talk about trading Bledsoe or Len. I don't want to do that. I like our talent and we have a lot of nice pieces, but we're also a makeshift roster, without a real FO plan when the big targets don't hit. I'm also glad we have a good chance at Simmons. I'm just not sure we have more young talent than the guys on those other teams.

Besides being a team playing the first year together with no continuity in roster, we've also played the most games in the league.

Hornacek has been far from a good coach this year but there have been all sorts of problems. I don't really want him to stay for his sake and sanity and I'm sure if he wants to coach he will find a place with more of a plan and continuity, though I think he might be happy just chilling in Phx.

You talk about raw talent but I really can't believe you think our young guys have more raw skills and talent than those other teams I named. Bledsoe has a lot of raw ability that I like, and has more athletic ability than a guy like Conley, but Conley plays smart ball.

I certainly wouldn't place Bledsoe above Curry, Westbrook, Harden (despite his down year), Klay, Paul, and probably Conley or Lillard...perhaps even Parker and Ginobili this year, because most of those play team ball. Bledsoe does have some great talent and should be ahead of at least those last three guys I named. I can't remember how many guards make the all star game though. We have a near all star in Bledsoe but the way even our fans (and fans of previous teams he's been on don't think he is really a near all star).

I'm not really concerned with what fans outside our forum would think. They follow their teams. We follow ours. But I watch enough hoops to feel pretty good about my statement. Also, the vast majority of people are going to be influenced by hype and draft slot. Since our guys have been under the radar or later selections, you aren't going to find those fans agreeing at all, which is fine. For instance, their assessment of Embiid or Parker vs. Booker, or their opinions of Okafor (saw a fan ask HP if Okafor would make the HOF putting up his current numbers for his career, which was laughed at. That's the difference in efficiency, hype, etc.).

I take ours over LAL's any and every day.

I take ours over PHI's any and every day. Okafor and Noel are the only one I'd want on my team, and right now Okafor's putting up numbers on shots. He is essentially their Brandon Knight. His efficiency is awful, and he's never defended and may never defend. He does have obvious upside though, which is why I'd want him, similar to why I'm not willing to give up on Knight when he's been so poorly coached here. Noel is a nice player but still has a ton of work to do to become an offensive threat imo. Embiid has already had questions about his commitment to the game, desire to recover from injuries as opposed to drink and party, and certainly looks like an immature Greg Oden. All 3 have a very clumsy fit together that is destined to have to be dismantled.

Brooklyn is RHJ and Lopez, who is probably too old for a rebuilding team.

New Orleans has Davis, who is an absolute monster. He is easily the player I'd take if I could pick anyone to build around. Unfortunately for them, their GM has done a criminal job of surrounding him with talent. He had more talent around him in college. There is not a single player I would want on my team relative to their salaries aside from Anderson, who is too old for a rebuild and will likely become overpaid this offseason, making him fall into the "not want" list for me. Holiday I would be on the fence on. That's it for me. Some may disagree on Evans but I am not a fan at all. I'd prefer Davis just because of who he is relative to the rest of our guys, but only if I didn't take Demps with me. That doesn't appear to be the case for NO for a few years at least, which imo will waste a good portion of their window.

Minnesota has the most talent. Pretty easily. But as far as the playoff conversation they are far too young to have been a legitimate threat. That's why these discussions can't be melded together. They are entirely different valuations. Either way, I don't really consider Minnesota a tanking team as far as our tanking discussions go. They are trying to win games, and imo it's in their best interest to win games, but are just too young to do it. They'll get there soon.

I don't buy Milwaukee's talent at all. Parker is a tweener who doesn't defend, may be best suited for the 4 but wants to be a 3, and can't really shoot at all from 3, and coming off a major injury. Many say he hasn't been the same, and I haven't watched as much this season so he may be playing worse, but his numbers are similar. He just simply wasn't that great before injury. He was good for a 19 year old, but he wasn't legitimately good for an NBA player in the slightest. He's still super young so he will improve, but I personally don't believe he becomes something special at all. He's never defended at any level, and so at best I see him as an elite 1 way player who won't be elite from 3 point range. That's not really that valuable. I honestly wouldn't trade Booker for him. Greak freak I like and think will be good. Middleton is 24, so throwing him in there with a tanking core is borderline imo. If that's the case we could throw Knight in there.

[AtheJ415]

Better yet, I want to hear what McD should've done. It's easy to say this team is unlikeable and sucks. It's another to say how the team he walked into should really be much better at this point. Let's see what we really should've turned Scola, Gortat, Goran, and Dudley into.

1) Well Gortat for Okafor and Ennis really was a poor trade. We should have just kept Gortat and tried to resign him. Right now he's making less than Chandler and would have been good a mentor to Len.

2) McD should have just kept Goran and drafted a rookie replacement. Right now we are looking at a 2018 and a 2021 1st round draft pick. Typical rookies take 3-4 years to make a difference so I don't expect any payoff for those two for five to ten years.

3) Getting rid of Scola and Dudley was the right thing to do.

4) He should have held onto Ish Smith. He was a glue guy for the second unit

5) No need to sign Knight

6) Should have dumped Kief this summer for chump change but glad he got rid of Marcus.

Bledsoe / Smith
Dragic / Booker? / Goodwin
Tucker / Warren
Leuer / Telly
Gortat / Len

Lakers 1st round pick

Of course this is all hindsight

Agreed with everything except I was fine dealing Goran considering we got a decent bounty for a disgruntled soon to be UFA who we had no leverage over walking for nothing.. In fact I would have blown it up earlier and sold higher on him coming off the fluke 12-13 season after we decided to not overpay Frye. Our success was predicated on the pick n' pop duo. We could have just kept Green around as our stopgap SG instead of mortgaging the future for a knee jerk acquisiton to save face. Trading for Knight accomplished nothing as we could have just signed in the summer and we didn't end up using his Bird Rights to exceed the cap because we signed Chandler out right.

I just don't think that team has any prayer of winning a title, and worse, is good enough to make the playoffs. So we reach our fantastically overrated goal of playoffs but are further from a title. You can't properly rebuild without getting younger.

[AtheJ415]

Speaking of Milwaukee and Philly. I found this super interesting. Comparing Len, Booker, Okafor, Greak Freak, Terrence Jones, and Jabari Parker:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bookede01&y1=2016&p2=parkeja01&y2=2016&p3=joneste01&y3=2016&p4=antetgi01&y4=2016&y5=2016&p5=okafoja01&y6=2016&p6=lenal01

[AtheJ415]

By the way, if I haven't mentioned it enough, we need Terrence Jones.

[aIvin adams]

By the way, if I haven't mentioned it enough, we need Terrence Jones.

agree and i think Hou is one of the teams most likely to make a trade before the deadline. they are one of the only teams that 1)need a trade and 2) can't take their time as they rack up ben simmons scratcher tickets. (bucks also came to mind)

i liked Jones a little more than Kieff even when Kieff wasn't a load. Hou isn't resigning him. i wonder what Hou is asking for and I wonder if we have anything the'yre interested in (PJ? archie/weems maybe?)

OTOH i don't want to give up too much for him bc i think he is an unrestricted FA after this yr, right? i dunno how bird rights even work so i don't know if we'd even be able to keep him if we wanted to

[alphagorilla]

If Lakers get the 1st pick and lets say we would pick 4th. Would u do Bledsoe,Len and 4th for 1st and Clarkson? or something similar

[RaisingArizona]

McD plays his cards to his chest. He's making Gambo go nuts haha

[Weemsickew14]

I think if we cant land Simmons we should go after Dunn. I know hes another PG but I think hes the second best player in the draft. Maybe trade Bled for a stud big and bring Knight off of the bench.

[thamadkant]

If Lakers get the 1st pick and lets say we would pick 4th. Would u do Bledsoe,Len and 4th for 1st and Clarkson? or something similar

Lakers say no. Maybe pre injury Bledsoe

[bwgood77]

If Lakers get the 1st pick and lets say we would pick 4th. Would u do Bledsoe,Len and 4th for 1st and Clarkson? or something similar

Lakers say no. Maybe pre injury Bledsoe

No one is trading that pick, espcially not for a package like that. I mean if Anthony Davis was on the table or something, yes, but not many other deals that get it done right now, unless it was for like two stars.