PC Board OT thread

[Dr Spaceman]

I've seen people try to argue that "depth" doesn't matter as much in the playoffs, and it really makes no sense to me.

Well the arguments for why depth doesn't matter as much in the playoffs remain valid. Longer breaks between games and longer timeouts during games. It does mean your best players can play more minutes which means for teams without quality depth they benefit from it.

For a team like the Spurs that likes to play lots of guys and not extend a ton of minutes to anyone(tho I expect Kawhi's minutes to go up notably in the PS) it certainly doesn't hurt them either. Especially since Mr. Duncan will play more minutes in the playoffs. In other words, you can continue to play a ton of guys and spread the minutes out in the playoffs if you want. But if you are a top heavy team like the Thunder, Clippers, Rockets--well I think they obviously benefit.

The Spurs are an exception to this notion imo, not a reason to dismiss it.

Oh no I was talking specifically about people levying that criticism against the Spurs. As if Manu/Mills/Diaw are going to see their minutes cut just because the playoffs are happening. I think what we'll see is that they'll just cut everyone but the top 9 (starters and Mills/Manu/Diaw/West) out of the regular rotation and only play those other guys for match ups. I think Kawhi and Aldridge will see their minutes jump but this team has legit players all up and down the front court and I don't think we're going to see Duncan for 35 minutes anymore. Diaw absolutely needs minutes and they have to come from somewhere. The backcourt rotation will be super interesting too; if Green continues to suck we may get a heavier dose of Manu, which who knows if he can handle at this age. I don't want to doubt a Jedi master, but still.

Changing gears for a sec: would you say Manu is one of the smartest players you've seen? The way he manipulates and controls the game is something else, and to remain this effective as a scoring guard at 39 is frankly obscene. SAS offense has always been its best with him on the floor for more than a decade now, and he's the all-time leader in plus-minus (only tracked since 2000)

[Texas Chuck]

Changing gears for a sec: would you say Manu is one of the smartest players you've seen? The way he manipulates and controls the game is something else, and to remain this effective as a scoring guard at 39 is frankly obscene. SAS offense has always been its best with him on the floor for more than a decade now, and he's the all-time leader in plus-minus (only tracked since 2000)

First, let me say that Manu has been one of my favorite 3 or 4 players to watch play the game since he's been in the league. He's just incredibly entertaining and creative as a player. Love him. Absolutely think he has a unique ability to create angles for himself and teammates, he is one of the best I've ever seen at baiting players into mistakes as a defender.

I don't know that I would call him necessarily one of the smartest(obviously very smart tho) because even now when he should really know better, he still commits silly turnovers. It's really the biggest knock on him as a player is how often he turns it over. I can live with it obviously because of everything else that he brings, but it's surprising that it's still an issue for him.

Obviously not going to be recognized as one of the elite players of his generation because of the lack of minutes, but for the time he gives you, he's right up there with any guard of his generation. Just a treasure of a player and the fact that he and Duncan have been able and willing to keep playing all these years is something I hope none of us has taken for granted.

I have tickets to the last Spurs game at Dallas this year just in case this is it for he and Duncan. I just hope it won't be a Pop ordered rest night.

[Dr Spaceman]

Changing gears for a sec: would you say Manu is one of the smartest players you've seen? The way he manipulates and controls the game is something else, and to remain this effective as a scoring guard at 39 is frankly obscene. SAS offense has always been its best with him on the floor for more than a decade now, and he's the all-time leader in plus-minus (only tracked since 2000)

First, let me say that Manu has been one of my favorite 3 or 4 players to watch play the game since he's been in the league. He's just incredibly entertaining and creative as a player. Love him. Absolutely think he has a unique ability to create angles for himself and teammates, he is one of the best I've ever seen at baiting players into mistakes as a defender.

I don't know that I would call him necessarily one of the smartest(obviously very smart tho) because even now when he should really know better, he still commits silly turnovers. It's really the biggest knock on him as a player is how often he turns it over. I can live with it obviously because of everything else that he brings, but it's surprising that it's still an issue for him.

Obviously not going to be recognized as one of the elite players of his generation because of the lack of minutes, but for the time he gives you, he's right up there with any guard of his generation. Just a treasure of a player and the fact that he and Duncan have been able and willing to keep playing all these years is something I hope none of us has taken for granted.

I have tickets to the last Spurs game at Dallas this year just in case this is it for he and Duncan. I just hope it won't be a Pop ordered rest night.

Very true, although in his defense he doesn't make a lot of careless turnovers. He makes a lot of "Manu unchained" type turnovers where he tries to force a pass or drive that isn't quite there. Kind of similar to Nash, and as opposed to the LeBron or Harden sloppy ball handling or carelessness turnovers.

Speaking of Nash, I'm glad you mentioned angles; Manu and Nash are the two best I've seen at understanding and manipulating floor geometry. Manu has that weird syncopated gait too where he takes a lethargic first step and you go "What the hell is he doing, there's no driving room" and then all of a sudden he unleashes a long stride and you go "how on EARTH did he just split that double team?" I wonder how much futbol influence there is in both guys, a game that heavily emphasizes this type of passing and playmaking. I know Nash was an all-timer as a high-schooler, but I don't know that much about Manu's background.

On a related note, I think an underrated aspect of the Spurs dominance is how damn smart they are collectively. Like, there may not have ever been a greater collection of basketball IQ. Duncan is Duncan, obviously, but Diaw is a pretty renowned basketball genius as well; Nash has called him the smartest teammate he's had and "he sees things I don't". Obviously we talked about Manu, and you don't get to Kawhi's level of defense without being a visionary IMO. And Pop as far as I'm concerned is the most brilliant coach we've ever seen.

[Texas Chuck]

Oh no question his turnovers are as a result of him trying to do too much and very rarely just a physical error. I kinda love that he plays for such an old-school guy like Pop who hates that kind of basketball, but realizes that Manu is a special player and so he just lets him do his thing.

And agree with Diaw. Very underrated player in general and definitely a basketball savant. Always wondered what he could have been had he committed himself a bit more to fitness. Even some of their more bit players through the years have been very smart guys. That's part of why Matt Bonner has been on the roster 3 years past his actual usefulness. Because Pop knows when he has to throw him out there, he's not going to get the team killed.

[Dr Spaceman]

Oh no question his turnovers are as a result of him trying to do too much and very rarely just a physical error. I kinda love that he plays for such an old-school guy like Pop who hates that kind of basketball, but realizes that Manu is a special player and so he just lets him do his thing.

And agree with Diaw. Very underrated player in general and definitely a basketball savant. Always wondered what he could have been had he committed himself a bit more to fitness. Even some of their more bit players through the years have been very smart guys. That's part of why Matt Bonner has been on the roster 3 years past his actual usefulness. Because Pop knows when he has to throw him out there, he's not going to get the team killed.

Forgot to mention Aldridge, who from everything ive heard is a huge stat nerd/league pass junkie and seemed to have no trouble acclimating to the Spurs' schemes, even if the on-court chemistry isn't yet cemented with guys who are going on a decade playing together.

By all accounts his decision to join the Spurs was based on them appealing to his crazy basketball intelligence (as well as a winning culture; both excellent and ironic counterpoints to the Lakers' approach). He also hated the Lakers meeting because they didn't talk enough specifics about basketball.

[Larry David]

11 spurs players have a ts% of .55 or higher

thats gotta be pretty rare and gs has 10

[Mutnt]

Funny, because when I envision what ''intelligent'' basketball looks like on the court I'd have a pretty decent way to go before Aldridge's name popped into my mind.

For example, CP3 is a player whose game strikes me as a product and/or result of understanding various basketball specifics, schemes, situations, being very attentioned to detail etc. The way he approaches the game seems analytical to me.

Now, if I think of a guy with very limited peripheral floor vision and passing skills taking a lot of horrible mid-range turnaround shots with very little understanding of how to actually move around the court and use his threat as a scorer to open up the game for his teammates, now that's more Aldridge's suit, at least it was in Portland.

[Dr Spaceman]

Funny, because when I envision what ''intelligent'' basketball looks like on the court I'd have a pretty decent way to go before Aldridge's name popped into my mind.

For example, CP3 is a player whose game strikes me as a product and/or result of understanding various basketball specifics, schemes, situations, being very attentioned to detail etc. The way he approaches the game seems analytical to me.

Now, if I think of a guy with very limited peripheral floor vision and passing skills taking a lot of horrible mid-range turnaround shots with very little understanding of how to actually move around the court and use his threat as a scorer to open up the game for his teammates, now that's more Aldridge's suit, at least it was in Portland.

That's a pretty brutal assessment. For one thing, I'd say it's pretty intelligent to understand what your skills are (in this case his insane midrange shot and low post scoring) and apply them in the best way possible to help your team be effective. It's also weird to hear you mention gravity and then dismiss Aldridge, considering those offenses were build around his scoring threat when he occupied certain spaces of the floor.

LaMarcus isn't a high-flyer and he doesn't have the foot speed to play a perimeter game. He developed a really killer elite skill and anchored great teams with it. There's no reason to kill the guy for not being Daryl Morey's dream girl.

[PaulieWal]

There's no reason to kill the guy for not being Daryl Morey's dream girl.

I might just sig that and take out JB's mumbo-jumbo for a while.

[E-Balla]

Funny, because when I envision what ''intelligent'' basketball looks like on the court I'd have a pretty decent way to go before Aldridge's name popped into my mind.

For example, CP3 is a player whose game strikes me as a product and/or result of understanding various basketball specifics, schemes, situations, being very attentioned to detail etc. The way he approaches the game seems analytical to me.

Now, if I think of a guy with very limited peripheral floor vision and passing skills taking a lot of horrible mid-range turnaround shots with very little understanding of how to actually move around the court and use his threat as a scorer to open up the game for his teammates, now that's more Aldridge's suit, at least it was in Portland.

This post is so bad it hurts. LaMarcus operates off making the defense bend to his will like a poor man's Dirk. Historically its worked extremely well with him leading the 2nd best offense just 2 years ago and the 9th best offense last year. As long as he has a G that can run the PNR with him and shooters he will be able to exploit that to demolish defenses. He did it with Roy, Miller, Felton, and Lillard and he lead (or was 2nd fiddle to) top 10 offenses all but 2 of those seasons (11th in 2011 when Felton was extra out of shape and he got hurt and 15th in 2012 when he got a brand new coach that wanted him taking more jumpers and posting up less).

LaMarcus' offensive value is in that he's smart enough and skilled enough to be slightly below elite in any scoring role. Can he be a pick and roll 2nd option with the ability to face up out the high post? Yes. Can he be a low post big that rarely works from the outside unless its a pick and pop? Yes. Can he be a player that gets the ball and attacks the rim? Yes. Can he be a pseudo Dirk that operates out the high post and on post up opportunities? Yes. He doesn't have to be the most efficient scorer if everyone he plays with (by virtue of playing with him) gets way better.

The part I bolded in your post worries me. It makes it seem as if you've honestly never seen LaMarcus play (or never even cared to pay attention to what he was doing on the court when you did watch him) and you instead decided to base his effectiveness in your eyes on nothing but his shooting percentages. When LaMarcus is on the floor so many less team possessions end in bad midrange shot attempts and when it does end in bad midrange shot attempts they're usually shot by LaMarcus who's pretty good at making them (he's over 45% on shots with defenders within 2 feet of him for the 3rd straight year despite only being 28% on pull up jumpers compared to 39% the last 2 years).

There's no reason to kill the guy for not being Daryl Morey's dream girl.

I might just sig that and take out JB's mumbo-jumbo for a while.

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

[E-Balla]

Just finished Making A Murderer. Good show if you want to torture yourself. Nice to know 2 officers that don't like you is really all it takes to land you a life bid (helps if you have a teenaged nephew with the mental capacity of a child too).

[PaulieWal]

There's no reason to kill the guy for not being Daryl Morey's dream girl.

I might just sig that and take out JB's mumbo-jumbo for a while.

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

[E-Balla]

I might just sig that and take out JB's mumbo-jumbo for a while.

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

You have a point with those last 2 sentences but the 2011 Heat offense in the postseason was better than the 2012 Heat offense prior to the Finals. Saying Wade wasn't as good as he was the previous year is a massive understatement IMO. Wade (at least to me) was the best basketball player on the planet in 2011 but by 2012 with his injuries he was barely top 10. The 2011 Heat were better in the regular season in every way and in the playoffs they ran through the East before Lebron choked. In 2012 they struggled heavily with Indiana and Boston due to the declining health and play of both Wade and Bosh.

[Dr Spaceman]

I might just sig that and take out JB's mumbo-jumbo for a while.

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

The 2011 Heat were in no way shape or form better than 2012. The 2011 team was giving starter minutes to Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony, Miller was in and out of the lineup and shot like crap, and they played a stone-age brand of basketball that allowed the Mavs to choke the life out of them in the Finals.

The 2012 team added Battier, who is IMO one of the best role player signings ever, Miller stayed healthy for most of the playoffs and played terrifically in the Finals, and the redesigned "orbit" offense payed dividends especially when LeBron played the four and there was no longer Haslem or Anthony to muck up the machinery.

[PaulieWal]

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

You have a point with those last 2 sentences but the 2011 Heat offense in the postseason was better than the 2012 Heat offense prior to the Finals. Saying Wade wasn't as good as he was the previous year is a massive understatement IMO. Wade (at least to me) was the best basketball player on the planet in 2011 but by 2012 with his injuries he was barely top 10. The 2011 Heat were better in the regular season in every way and in the playoffs they ran through the East before Lebron choked. In 2012 they struggled heavily with Indiana and Boston due to the declining health and play of both Wade and Bosh.

Thing is though that Wade was still pretty good in the RS before the knee injury and outside of the Boston series was a pretty decent 2nd option IMO. And as Spaceman pointed out Miami finally moved away from Bibby and Anthony. I think a team having an identity with two top 10 players including the best in the game will be more deadly than 2011 where the Heat was just winning on D + the sheer raw talent of Wade/Bosh/James.

I'd take 2012 Heat over 2011 but hey if you make a reasonable case or post you don't end up in my sig .

Edit: Oh I'd add I don't think they really struggled with Indy. It was a tough series but after game 4 the outcome of the series was never in doubt. If Bosh play against the Celts they probably win that series in 6 too. That 3 game stretch were Wade-James completely dismantled the Pacers was a sight to behold. Games 4-6 had so many spectacular plays between the two.

[E-Balla]

The 2011 Heat were easily better than the 2012 Heat. You might need to apologize to JB for that one. Winning a ring isn't the determining factor in team strength.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

The 2011 Heat were in no way shape or form better than 2012. The 2011 team was giving starter minutes to Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony, Miller was in and out of the lineup and shot like crap, and they played a stone-age brand of basketball that allowed the Mavs to choke the life out of them in the Finals.

The 2012 team added Battier, who is IMO one of the best role player signings ever, Miller stayed healthy for most of the playoffs and played terrifically in the Finals, and the redesigned "orbit" offense payed dividends especially when LeBron played the four and there was no longer Haslem or Anthony to muck up the machinery.

Joel Anthony played more on the 2012 Heat (21 mpg vs 19 mpg), Bibby didn't start until the playoffs (he only played 22 games in the regular season), and even then Rio was outplaying him on the 2011 team. Yeah they signed Battier but that doesn't make up for the 2011 team having a way better D. Wade.

And their style of basketball had nothing to do with them losing. Lebron playing worse than an average starting SF did. Can't say the Mavs forced him into being a passive bystander either that was clearly him.

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

You have a point with those last 2 sentences but the 2011 Heat offense in the postseason was better than the 2012 Heat offense prior to the Finals. Saying Wade wasn't as good as he was the previous year is a massive understatement IMO. Wade (at least to me) was the best basketball player on the planet in 2011 but by 2012 with his injuries he was barely top 10. The 2011 Heat were better in the regular season in every way and in the playoffs they ran through the East before Lebron choked. In 2012 they struggled heavily with Indiana and Boston due to the declining health and play of both Wade and Bosh.

Thing is though that Wade was still pretty good in the RS before the knee injury and outside of the Boston series was a pretty decent 2nd option IMO. And as Spaceman pointed out Miami finally moved away from Bibby and Anthony. I think a team having an identity with two top 10 players including the best in the game will be more deadly than 2011 where the Heat was just winning on D + the sheer raw talent of Wade/Bosh/James.

Wade was pretty good but he wasn't arguably the best player in the league. In the postseason he was bad against Boston, terrible in games 1-3 vs Indy, and mediocre in 3 of the 5 Final games. In 2011 he was amazing outside of the Chicago series. Also Bibby retired but was replaced by the terrible Norris Cole and Joel Anthony played just as much as he did in 2011.

An identity is nice sometimes but overwhelming talent can't be beat (unless of course they stop using their talent as Lebron did).

I'd take 2012 Heat over 2011 but hey if you make a reasonable case or post you don't end up in my sig .

Well the 2011 Heat did have more win shares.

[PaulieWal]

An identity is nice sometimes but overwhelming talent can't be beat (unless of course they stop using their talent as Lebron did).

I'd take 2012 Heat over 2011 but hey if you make a reasonable case or post you don't end up in my sig .

Well the 2011 Heat did have more win shares.

I also think that identity led to role players playing better? Or maybe it was the better role players? I am not sure. Chalmers was decent throughout the whole playoffs, as was Battier (who lit up OKC actually), even the terrible Cole was the sparkplug against OKC in game 4 after they jumped on the Heat early.

I think just having Battier makes such a difference and he was just what the team needed in 2012. A guy who could space the floor and was a great team defender.

[Dr Spaceman]

Why do you think I think that the 2012 Heat were better because of their title? They were better because LeBron was better, Wade wasn't as good as the year before but still pretty damn good and willingly took a backseat to LeBron to create a better 2 man game, they had more depth with Battier and finally discovered smallball. Oh and Spo also focused more on offense even if the ORTG wasn't as good as 2011. 2012 Heat's offense would be much more resilient in the PS with LeBron finally starting to go more in the post and Spo creating more ball movement/floor spacing.

Plus we all know JB's agenda and propensity to make trolling/derailing posts. If he had actually made a logical case for 2011 Heat I would have never sigged it.

The 2011 Heat were in no way shape or form better than 2012. The 2011 team was giving starter minutes to Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony, Miller was in and out of the lineup and shot like crap, and they played a stone-age brand of basketball that allowed the Mavs to choke the life out of them in the Finals.

The 2012 team added Battier, who is IMO one of the best role player signings ever, Miller stayed healthy for most of the playoffs and played terrifically in the Finals, and the redesigned "orbit" offense payed dividends especially when LeBron played the four and there was no longer Haslem or Anthony to muck up the machinery.

Joel Anthony played more on the 2012 Heat (21 mpg vs 19 mpg), Bibby didn't start until the playoffs (he only played 22 games in the regular season), and even then Rio was outplaying him on the 2011 team. Yeah they signed Battier but that doesn't make up for the 2011 team having a way better D. Wade.

And their style of basketball had nothing to do with them losing. Lebron playing worse than an average starting SF did. Can't say the Mavs forced him into being a passive bystander either that was clearly him.

You have a point with those last 2 sentences but the 2011 Heat offense in the postseason was better than the 2012 Heat offense prior to the Finals. Saying Wade wasn't as good as he was the previous year is a massive understatement IMO. Wade (at least to me) was the best basketball player on the planet in 2011 but by 2012 with his injuries he was barely top 10. The 2011 Heat were better in the regular season in every way and in the playoffs they ran through the East before Lebron choked. In 2012 they struggled heavily with Indiana and Boston due to the declining health and play of both Wade and Bosh.

Thing is though that Wade was still pretty good in the RS before the knee injury and outside of the Boston series was a pretty decent 2nd option IMO. And as Spaceman pointed out Miami finally moved away from Bibby and Anthony. I think a team having an identity with two top 10 players including the best in the game will be more deadly than 2011 where the Heat was just winning on D + the sheer raw talent of Wade/Bosh/James.

Wade was pretty good but he wasn't arguably the best player in the league. In the postseason he was bad against Boston, terrible in games 1-3 vs Indy, and mediocre in 3 of the 5 Final games. In 2011 he was amazing outside of the Chicago series. Also Bibby retired but was replaced by the terrible Norris Cole and Joel Anthony played just as much as he did in 2011.

An identity is nice sometimes but overwhelming talent can't be beat (unless of course they stop using their talent as Lebron did).

I'd take 2012 Heat over 2011 but hey if you make a reasonable case or post you don't end up in my sig .

Well the 2011 Heat did have more win shares.

I've said all I want to about the 2011 Finals (I re-watched that series a bunch of times):http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1377189#p42968663

[ceiling raiser]

Silly question, but among guys who currently cover the Spurs, who is the best writer? Probably don't have an Ethan Sherwood Strauss type of guy, but maybe someone here has a favorite.

[E-Balla]

An identity is nice sometimes but overwhelming talent can't be beat (unless of course they stop using their talent as Lebron did).

I'd take 2012 Heat over 2011 but hey if you make a reasonable case or post you don't end up in my sig .

Well the 2011 Heat did have more win shares.

I also think that identity led to role players playing better? Or maybe it was the better role players? I am not sure. Chalmers was decent throughout the whole playoffs, as was Battier (who lit up OKC actually), even the terrible Cole was the sparkplug against OKC in game 4 after they jumped on the Heat early.

I think just having Battier makes such a difference and he was just what the team needed in 2012. A guy who could space the floor and was a great team defender.

Rio was just as good in the 2011 playoffs (he averaged 12/3/3 per 36 in 2011 and 12/4/4 in 2012). Battier was a great addition but I don't think it makes up for Wade being back.

The 2011 Heat were in no way shape or form better than 2012. The 2011 team was giving starter minutes to Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony, Miller was in and out of the lineup and shot like crap, and they played a stone-age brand of basketball that allowed the Mavs to choke the life out of them in the Finals.

The 2012 team added Battier, who is IMO one of the best role player signings ever, Miller stayed healthy for most of the playoffs and played terrifically in the Finals, and the redesigned "orbit" offense payed dividends especially when LeBron played the four and there was no longer Haslem or Anthony to muck up the machinery.

Joel Anthony played more on the 2012 Heat (21 mpg vs 19 mpg), Bibby didn't start until the playoffs (he only played 22 games in the regular season), and even then Rio was outplaying him on the 2011 team. Yeah they signed Battier but that doesn't make up for the 2011 team having a way better D. Wade.

And their style of basketball had nothing to do with them losing. Lebron playing worse than an average starting SF did. Can't say the Mavs forced him into being a passive bystander either that was clearly him.

I've said all I want to about the 2011 Finals (I re-watched that series a bunch of times):http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1377189#p42968663

That's a great post even if I can't agree with it. I'll still contend that I've seen defenses play Lebron way harder and I've seen him way outperform that and force the issue more (even in 2013 when he was passive he wasn't THAT passive).