Positive Joe Dumars talk, anybody?

[Spider156]

Saints GM Mickey Loomis has taken on a greater personnel role above GM Dell Demps, but rival execs understand that move is only temporary. "Mickey is a football guy, not a basketball guy," one exec said. And at the D-League Showcase, the buzz was getting louder that it's only a matter of time before former Pistons executive Joe Dumars -- who has a close relationship with Saints and Pelicans owner Tom Benson -- returns to his native Louisiana to assume control.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/writer/ken-berger/25445439/with-trade-deadline-approaching-there-are-many-ways-to-become-a-seller

Was just a matter of time until Dumars got behind the controls of another team.

Anthony Davis will be the first true star Dumars has ever had, so it will be interesting to see how he can build around the brow.

I think this time he has a clean slate, no pressure and already a sure Superstar. He'll probably turn that organization around pretty quickly through the Draft and eventually Free Agency. This summer he'll have a high pick and will likely draft the right guy. He's better at the mid lottery picks. I'd like to see how he does at the trade department. He'll definitely have a better scouting program at NOLA. Pistons scouting didn't become this good until SVG took over.

[Pharaoh]

Do you realize how incredibly difficult of a standard that is to operate under?

It would be almost impossible to accomplish such a study, because "better" is such an objective concept. But if thats the metric we are judging by I would be very interested to see just how many leaguewide fails of draft picks there was from pick 6-40 during Joe's tenure. Top 5 picks are usually elite talent, and anything after 40 are usually forgettable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the failure rate was above the 80th percentile.

So you're saying that because most other teams are craptacular with picks it's ok for us to be the same?

IMO it's not. You don't settle for average! And that's always been my point.

What developmental systems did Joe implement? What changes to the scouting staff did he oversee? What did Joe do to attempt to be above average with picks?

Joe did what most long term GMs do - he did OK with picks and (in the beginning) was much better with signings and trades - proven talent

Doesn't that suggest we sucked at drafting? When you consider we traded for Ben, Chucky, Cliff, Barry, Corliss...won 50 games with them!

Then we traded for Hunter, Rip & Sheed, signed Dice & Soup...

Joe sucked as a drafter IMO. I'll spend some time looking up individual years and come back with real evidence...i believe I've done this many times in the last 6-7 years

Well there's nothing wrong with desiring or even demanding near perfection in the draft, but that is destined to result in an immense amount of dissapoinment.

If you're interested to take a look, here are lists of San Antonio's, LAL's, Dallas', Miami's, Boston's draft history. All these teams are considered to be well run and were consistently among the better teams and won rings during the Dumars' era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio_Spurs_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Los_Angeles_Lakers_first_and_second_round_draft_picks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Heat_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Celtics_draft_history

Judging those teams from 2000-2013 (Dumars era) I have to say that I'm not too impressed. Dumars stacks up very favorably here.

I never compared Joe's drafting to anyone else though.

What I said was he failed to play the long game whilst riding Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip & Chauncey.

Once we got that group in place Joe was informed the luxury tax wasn't an option - yet he didn't draft or trade well.

It's my day off today so I'll get to that evidence...

[thesack12]

So you're saying that because most other teams are craptacular with picks it's ok for us to be the same?

IMO it's not. You don't settle for average! And that's always been my point.

What developmental systems did Joe implement? What changes to the scouting staff did he oversee? What did Joe do to attempt to be above average with picks?

Joe did what most long term GMs do - he did OK with picks and (in the beginning) was much better with signings and trades - proven talent

Doesn't that suggest we sucked at drafting? When you consider we traded for Ben, Chucky, Cliff, Barry, Corliss...won 50 games with them!

Then we traded for Hunter, Rip & Sheed, signed Dice & Soup...

Joe sucked as a drafter IMO. I'll spend some time looking up individual years and come back with real evidence...i believe I've done this many times in the last 6-7 years

Well there's nothing wrong with desiring or even demanding near perfection in the draft, but that is destined to result in an immense amount of dissapoinment.

If you're interested to take a look, here are lists of San Antonio's, LAL's, Dallas', Miami's, Boston's draft history. All these teams are considered to be well run and were consistently among the better teams and won rings during the Dumars' era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio_Spurs_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Los_Angeles_Lakers_first_and_second_round_draft_picks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Heat_draft_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Celtics_draft_history

Judging those teams from 2000-2013 (Dumars era) I have to say that I'm not too impressed. Dumars stacks up very favorably here.

I never compared Joe's drafting to anyone else though.

What I said was he failed to play the long game whilst riding Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip & Chauncey.

Once we got that group in place Joe was informed the luxury tax wasn't an option - yet he didn't draft or trade well.

It's my day off today so I'll get to that evidence...

It seems we are debating two different angles.

I'm solely evaluating Dumars' drafting prowess. I'm under the belief that taking into account how other teams performed in the draft is one of the biggest metrics in evaluating a GM's drafting performance. If thats not an important factor in your evaluations, thats fine.

I'm aware of all of Dumars' player development, coaching hire, trade, and free agent signing fails.

That being the case, if you're so inclined knock yourself out with what you were talking about working on. But don't fret over it because I'm not sure how much further we can discuss this because our bases seem so different.