Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread (Part 2)

[MaceCase]

Say in three years they are paying Middleton, Giannis and Jabari a combined $55M... is it really going to be that hard to fill in key pieces around them with a cap of almost double that?

This is a point that continues to elude some on this board. They'll tell you that your roster would be set in perpetuity and given that you're currently not a great team now then don't expect anything to change in the future. I think you'd agree that that isn't a reasonable assessment, right?

Regardless, you will mostly see Teague trades because it's believed that he is the most expendable due to a potential replacement playing behind him, holes elsewhere on the roster to fill, and honestly people overestimating the type of haul they expect to get in return for him even at his peak last season. Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Eric Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Isiah Thomas, Rajon Rondo, Brandon Knight, MCW, Ty Lawson, and Deron Williams were all the top PGs that changed teams in the last 3 seasons and the best pick with the least protection within the next 4 years and the best player that these teams got in return were the Lakers' pick (which has a great chance of staying in their control) and Enes Kanter.... There's not exactly a great trade market during the golden age of PGs,

Similar to Teague the same is true of Bazemore in that a team is going to have to really love him to get the Hawks to budge on moving a starter because they value what these guys provide on the court more than making a move just to say they got something. Given that he only has early-Bird rights a team would have to have the requisite cap space to attempt to resign him and if they have that cap space in the first place they'd be better served trying to sign him in the summer rather than moving assets to obtain him.

[PandaKidd]

Lmao

Stopped reading after this...

Just a prediction. We've seen this movie before...

Best of luck to you guys though. As a small market team, I do root for you guys.

Speaking of predictions, that's the only thing that you must be going off of, because even with Monroe us Bucks fans knew we weren't going to win the east this year. Again we should not be anywhere near as bad, but we've also been banged up and start 5 guys under 25. I'd much rather let a core build up ala OKC than trade for an aging star. For every Shaq trade there is a Joe Johnson trade to counter it.

Question i was having with a buddy of mine and this is kind of where Im at with the Hawks (that some other people on this post dont understand).

Would you rather be the Hawks or:
the Bucks?
the Timberwolves?
the Lakers?
the HEAT?

Knowing what we know, the Hawks DONT DRAFT well AT ALL. They also are GREAT at signing value ROLE PLAYERS and developing them. But the future doesnt look great to me. Because they are going to lock in over 70 millions to the same set of starters that just got blown out by the Hornets. Again, YOU ARE RESIGNING THE SAME STARTING 5 that I believe (AND ALMOST EVERYONE ELSE BELEIVES) ISNT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP. Think about that.

So what is their plan? Im not really sure.

At least the teams I mentioned above have young talent. we are heading toward a team of:
Dennis Schroeder
Paul Millsap
Al Horford
Korver/Thabo (Because they are on the books).

So unless they get lucky and sign or trade for some SG/SF that is out there (GO LOOK AT THE LIST OF FREE AGENTS) there isnt really any "superstars" , maybe Chandler Parsons.

That team is not winning the east, and isnt beating anyone in the West. I believe we need to reset and look at trading Teague and Horford this season, Possibly Korver if anyone will give anything for him. The team had 1 good stretch last year and people think that is the NORM. they should be shopping a lot of assets and looking to improve the talent.

Thats not a popular opinion because nerds will sit here and throw out fancy cap words and projections all while missing the overall point is that you dont sign starting level talent when your starting 5 is already paid for. It would be nice if we had a Portis or Justice Winslow in the wings getting playing time. Instead we have.............who?

The hawks are 1 piece away, but they are 5 steps away from getting that piece.

[Jamaaliver]

The hawks are 1 piece away, but they are 5 steps away from getting that piece.

You, PK...are the only one who gets me!!!

Also Yungsta...and ATLBoy...and Azure (sometimes)

And D12...and theatlfan (hope all is well, bud)




We seem (on this board) to always be more focused on the team on the floor when it comes to personnel (similar to a coach). Instead of the team we're gonna be fielding for the next few years (like a GM).



We too often get stuck embracing the good second tier pieces that we won't even consider converting them into top pieces. We saw that for years with Smoove. He was considered to valuable to move. Until he wasn't... Teams called us for years about Smoove. But the owners and GM (and most fans) were dead set on building around a second tier component.

That led to solid season of 50+ wins and second round knockouts. That's what building around second tier talent gets you. Good teams that lose to great players. (Dwight, LeBron, Paul George, KG & Pierce)

We've seen this for 8 straight years.

Pat Riley turned second tier talents Caron Butler and Lamar Odom into Shaq and won a title.
Danny Ainge turned second tier talents AL Jefferson into KG and won a title.
Kupchak turned second tier assets Kwame Brown and little known Marc Gasol into Pau Gasol and won titles.

That's the model. Select one really good young player to build around and convert all other second tier assets into a top asset to help us contend.

Think of all the young assets we've held onto for the last decade. Most of it wasted. Marvin...turned to dust because we held on too long. Josh turned to dust because we held on too long. Childress turned to dust because we held on too long.

But Diaw and a #15 pick turned into All Star Joe Johnson (in a sign and trade). And that trade was so controversial it put our owners at each other's throats.

Because our owners over-value second tier talents. Our owner once went on record that we valued Josh Smith more than a bunch of guys in the All Star Game....14 months later we let josh Smith walk away for nothing. Because we over valued second tier assets.

We have a team stacked with 2nd tier assets right now. But the GM, Coach (and most fans) value these guys contributions today more than what value they can acquire for tomorrow.

THIS WAS NEVER THE FINAL TEAM FERRY INTENDED TO BUILD!!!

His last summer here, he was gifting third tier assets for CAP SPACE so he could pursue top Free Agents. He was STILL trying to improve the overall talent on the team.

But suddenly, the fans here want to embrace the half finished roster he settled upon after Josh Smith, Dwight Howard and Chris Paul neglected to sign-up for his ATL super team?!?

It makes no sense from a strategy standpoint.

[jayu70]

Why is paying Horford and Bazemore (and I'm not saying we should or shouldn't) this offseason lock us into this current starting line up next season?
Korver moves to the bench, Baze becomes the starting 2, Sign a free agent SF (I haven't checked who is available), Trade Splitter with the future Minny pick, Edy will be ready for full time back up minutes next season.
Or we make a run a Nicholas Batum or Evan Fournier and let Baze walk.
The $70 million as it relates to the remaining balance of the cap is not static. Options are available.
Why would I prefer to be Minny - they have been in perpetual rebuild mode since they drafted Kevin Love and haven't been to the playoffs for 11 YEARS and have Sam Mitchell as their coach?

[Jamaaliver]

Why is paying Horford and Bazemore (and I'm not saying we should or shouldn't) this offseason lock us into this current starting line up next season?
Korver moves to the bench, Baze becomes the starting 2, Sign a free agent SF (I haven't checked who is available), Trade Splitter with the future Minny pick, Edy will be ready for full time back up minutes next season.
Or we make a run a Nicholas Batum or Evan Fournier and let Baze walk.

But does that make us a great team? Or simply keep us as second tier for a few more years?


The above is all reasonable and a solid approach to building a good team.

But how is that treadmill any different from the one we were on with JJ, Smoove and Horford?

Why would I prefer to be Minny - they have been in perpetual rebuild mode since they drafted Kevin Love and haven't been to the playoffs for 11 YEARS and have Sam Mitchell as their coach?

Minny's history is sordid and disappointing. Just awful for the past twenty years.

But they have two generational talents at important positions and have lots of assets to improve.

Their past is terrible, but their future looks bright.

But they need to lose Sam Mitchell at Coach. No debating that.

[PandaKidd]

Why is paying Horford and Bazemore (and I'm not saying we should or shouldn't) this offseason lock us into this current starting line up next season?
Korver moves to the bench, Baze becomes the starting 2, Sign a free agent SF (I haven't checked who is available), Trade Splitter with the future Minny pick, Edy will be ready for full time back up minutes next season.
Or we make a run a Nicholas Batum or Evan Fournier and let Baze walk.
The $70 million as it relates to the remaining balance of the cap is not static. Options are available.
Why would I prefer to be Minny - they have been in perpetual rebuild mode since they drafted Kevin Love and haven't been to the playoffs for 11 YEARS and have Sam Mitchell as their coach?

You would be committing to paying pieces we already agree cant win a championship, and committing to paying them more than DOUBLE what they make now..........

So on the depth chart they list Baze thabo as SFs. Korver the SG with THJ/Holliday at backup.

You tell me how resigning both AH and Baze more opens up anything but a SG position if that. you signed Holliday to a 2 year deal right?

Baze slides to the 2 guard, then Thabo becomes your starting sf OR???? go look at available free agents. Chandler Parsons is the biggest name outside of like Durant (which is a pipe dream).

Korver and Thabo are both VETS who are rotational players. IF you signed a big name FA, you would be at around what, 90+ million (someone who is going to demand to be paid 20 millionish) and you still have many roster spots to fill out.

I dont see the key player in FA that makes this team better at the 3/4 spot. IE there is no quick fix, which is why I think we need to unload Teague and Horford NOW, hope for a decent 1st round, sign stop gap at Center who can stay healthy.

You guys realize all their draft picks are pretty much here , like Patterson/DS/Tavares, none of those guys are superstars.

[PandaKidd]

I guess in a round about way Im saying we need to do what the Heat did last year. get a top 10 pick, etc. The difference between US and THEM is they had young guys to play. They got to see a full season of Whiteside. Then they got Winslow.

we dont have anyone that talented to showcase. But , Ill be honest id rather see what Holliday can do and THJ that watch Korver play 30 min a game grinding himself into dust.

[jayu70]

Why is paying Horford and Bazemore (and I'm not saying we should or shouldn't) this offseason lock us into this current starting line up next season?
Korver moves to the bench, Baze becomes the starting 2, Sign a free agent SF (I haven't checked who is available), Trade Splitter with the future Minny pick, Edy will be ready for full time back up minutes next season.
Or we make a run a Nicholas Batum or Evan Fournier and let Baze walk.

But does that make us a great team? Or simply keep us as second tier for a few more years?


The above is all reasonable and a solid approach to building a good team.

But how is that treadmill any different from the one we were on with JJ, Smoove and Horford?

Why would I prefer to be Minny - they have been in perpetual rebuild mode since they drafted Kevin Love and haven't been to the playoffs for 11 YEARS and have Sam Mitchell as their coach?

Minny's history is sordid and disappointing. Just awful for the past twenty years.

But they have two generational talents at important positions and have lots of assets to improve.

Their past is terrible, but their future looks bright.

But they need to lose Sam Mitchell at Coach. No debating that.

What Move will make us this 'GREAT' team in say 2 years. Curry ain't walking through that door, neither is Kawhi.
We are in year 3 of a reboot with Coach Bud and now new owners.

[Jamaaliver]

IE there is no quick fix, which is why I think we need to unload Teague and Horford NOW, hope for a decent 1st round, sign stop gap at Center who can stay healthy.

You guys realize all their draft picks are pretty much here , like Patterson/DS/Tavares, none of those guys are superstars.

Agree. but if we're looking to reboot/retool the roster...we need to include Millsap in trade talks. He is our single most valuable trade chip at this point.

And not so bold prediction...Millsap's production is gonna start tailing off in the next 18 months. If he can't lead us back to the ECF, move him and Teague for young talent.

[PandaKidd]

I absolutely agree too, Millsap should be shopped.

Like , what moves did they make this past summer that panned out, SERIOUSLY?

THJ- BUST so far. Couldnt even get on the floor.
Splitter- BUST , cant stay healthy , 26 games out of 40? 3 REB per Game?
Holliday- Thought was a good sighting, but he disappeared off the rotation after the first 10 games.

[Jamaaliver]

What Move will make us this 'GREAT' team in say 2 years. Curry ain't walking through that door, neither is Kawhi.
We are in year 3 of a reboot with Coach Bud and now new owners.

The argument for keeping this group together today is THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT FOR KEEPING THAT CORE WITH JJ, SMOOVE AND MARVIN.


And why does it have to be 2 years? Why not field a good/solid playoff team while we cultivate a top young player in the pipeline?

We're in year three of a reboot that was never going to work. Ferry was trying to build through Free Agency when we were mediocre and terrible. We lost 45 games, made the playoffs, missed out on a lottery pick and then tried to sign Carmelo in Free Agency...that's short-sighted. Why would 'Melo, or Pau or Luol come to a losing team?


If we'd drafted better, we'd be in a completely different boat. If this team has Dennis, Gobert and Giannis on the bench with the same starting five we have now?!?!
That'd be the ideal scenario. Good veteran team mentoring GREAT young players. And when Millsap walks away...Gobert replaces him.

That's the ideal approach.

Currys, Kawhis, Paul Georges are available pretty much every draft. Let's get one. Acquire extra picks for Teague.
Improve our scouting. Draft good young players who can actually contribute.


Kawhi wasn't a lottery pick. Rondo was picked in the 20s of the draft. Gobert was picked in the 20s. Jimmy Butler was picked with the last pick of the first round. Khris Middleton, Tobias Gray, Draymond Green were all picked in the 2nd round.


We waste draft picks like no other team I can remember. Then wonder why we have no young talent in the pipeline. No player other teams want to trade for.

We need to better manage assets. And then move those assets for top players.

[PandaKidd]

:rockclap.gif:

[Tfence92]

Say in three years they are paying Middleton, Giannis and Jabari a combined $55M... is it really going to be that hard to fill in key pieces around them with a cap of almost double that?

This is a point that continues to elude some on this board. They'll tell you that your roster would be set in perpetuity and given that you're currently not a great team now then don't expect anything to change in the future. I think you'd agree that that isn't a reasonable assessment, right?

Not very reasonable considering how young the bucks are, but it could be reasonable for some teams with older cores (possibly you guys?).

Regardless, you will mostly see Teague trades because it's believed that he is the most expendable due to a potential replacement playing behind him, holes elsewhere on the roster to fill, and honestly people overestimating the type of haul they expect to get in return for him even at his peak last season. Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Eric Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Isiah Thomas, Rajon Rondo, Brandon Knight, MCW, Ty Lawson, and Deron Williams were all the top PGs that changed teams in the last 3 seasons and the best pick with the least protection within the next 4 years and the best player that these teams got in return were the Lakers' pick (which has a great chance of staying in their control) and Enes Kanter.... There's not exactly a great trade market during the golden age of PGs.

Never really looked at it all like this, but the only reason I even brought up Teague was because I saw some people posting about taking like late first for him; which I thought was a little ridiculous. The trade market hasn't been great I suppose, but I'd have to think it's better than that?

Similar to Teague the same is true of Bazemore in that a team is going to have to really love him to get the Hawks to budge on moving a starter because they value what these guys provide on the court more than making a move just to say they got something. Given that he only has early-Bird rights a team would have to have the requisite cap space to attempt to resign him and if they have that cap space in the first place they'd be better served trying to sign him in the summer rather than moving assets to obtain him.

Does early bird allow restricted FA? If so that could be a big difference.

[Jamaaliver]

Speaking of predictions, that's the only thing that you must be going off of...

Not very reasonable considering how young the bucks are, but it could be reasonable for some teams with older cores.

Just remember where you heard that prediction first. There will come a point where your leadership must decide to double down on the players you have...to let them walk away for nothing...or to move them for value.


Six years ago, we were in the same position with Smoove, the all world young talent who could play multiple positions. Marvin Williams, the one and done college kid drafted #2 overall with loads of untapped potential. And Joe Johnson, the veteran swingman and go to scorer.

Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Joe Johnson bear a lot in common with your young guns

We chose poorly in which direction to go from their. And peaked. Then clung to dear life on remaining second tier around that core.



it didn't work out.



I hope you guys choose more wisely than us.
(Bookmark this page and come see us in Summer 2019. I'll be here.)

Spoiler:

Update: Zach Lowe of ESPN (and Grantland) is already speculating that Bucks should consider moving Greg Monroe for value.

[jayu70]

Trade Teague, see what we can get for Korver, Trade Al, look for offers for Millsap. I see what this is - Let's just TANK.
Think I'll find something more productive to do.

[PandaKidd]

Trade Teague, see what we can get for Korver, Trade Al, look for offers for Millsap. I see what this is - Let's just TANK.
Think I'll find something more productive to do.

Not tanking, just retooling. Give up on players you know arent going to get any better and you know are valuable NOW. Teague should go, you have DS waiting in the background.

AH should be shopped you can get weaker at his position if you can gain strength at another. Another position that is FAR MORE valuable like SG/SF.

Millsap should be shopped just to see what we can get. No harm no foul.

Korver should be shopped but i fear hes destroyed most of his value.

Look i didnt say trade everyone, im saying WE SHOULD LOOK.

[Jamaaliver]

Trade Teague, see what we can get for Korver, Trade Al, look for offers for Millsap. I see what this is - Let's just TANK.
Think I'll find something more productive to do.

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is going so far as to encourage tanking. But A young team that is still growing but loses in the second round of the playoffs is fine. That's part of the process. That's how they learn to play.

But if your two best players are in their primes...in their thirties...and can't get you to title contention alone...why stay with that model?

• HOU wants to contend. They'd kill for Millsap. Take advantage of their desperation.
  
• BRK is starting over, they have no need for Brook Lopez. They desperately need prospects and draft picks...take advantage of that desperation.
  
• MIL needs shooters and a Point Guard. Take advantage of that desperation.
  
• TOR thinks they can contend this year and wants a scoring big. Take advantage of that desperation.
  
• MINNESOTA is flush with young talent at every position, but they need productive vets to help that young group make a playoff push next season...take advantage of their desperation.
  
• NOP is desperate to pair Anthony Davis with another young star player for the next few years...take advantage of their desperation.
  
• CHA has wing players galore, and is desperate to make a push to the playoffs this year to appease fans, increase revenue, convince Batum to stay....take advantage of their desperation.

Their are DOZENS of trade scenarios available.

What I am advocating is better managing assets. Nailing draft picks. Being opportunistic and winning trades. Not gifting them away...

Is that truly bad advice? Don't make stupid decisions...

Question: If we lose in the 2nd round this year...does AL re-sign? or walk?

[observer1995]

Retooling is NOT going to lead the Hawks to being championship caliber, forget it, it's not. Only a scorched earth rebuild and tanking will, otherwise they will continue a Georgia tradition of "always the bridesmaid, never the bride".

[PandaKidd]

Question: If we lose in the 2nd round this year...does AL re-sign? or walk?

Depends, if we offer him the max he stays, if we dont, he walks.

If we lose tonight i wonder how panicked the fanbase gets. We could drop to 6th in the east I think.

[Jamaaliver]

I found this Hawks Offseason Preview over at ESPN....from 5 years ago.

The names have changed, but the same questions/issues apply:

1. 1. Fact or Fiction: Atlanta is the second-best team in the Southeast.
   
2. 2. Fact or Fiction: Re-signing Joe Johnson was the right move.
   
3. 3. Fact or Fiction: Jeff Teague should start at point guard
   
4. 4. Fact or Fiction: The Hawks should trade Josh Smith.
   
5. 5. Fact or Fiction: Atlanta should re-sign Jamal Crawford

It's almost identical to the questions being asked now?

Are we second best to the LeBrons in the east?
Was re-signing Millsap the right move?
Should Dennis start at Point?
Should Hawks trade Teague?
Should Hawks re-sign Horford?



Same stuff...different year.