Around the NBA

[lilfishi22]

I've always like Ish Smith on our team. No one ever expected much from him but when he was in, he stayed composed, knew his limitations and stayed in his lane.

[m1chal]

It's really just so disheartening, to have grown up watching KJ avg 10+ assists forever, then to have Kidd be a pure passer, than even the shoot first Marbury averaged like 8 at least, and then Nash....since then it has just not been pass first players. And with Bledsoe out, and Knight starting at pg, is is nightmarish.

My thoughts exactly. Great point guards have always been one of the reasons I loved to watch the Suns play.

[Damkac]

Suns don't need a pass-first point guard if they are good passing as a team. Spurs and Warriors are great at distributing the ball though Parker and Curry are more scorers than passers.

We really need Simmons

[bwgood77]

Suns don't need a pass-first point guard if they are good passing as a team. Spurs and Warriors are great at distributing the ball though Parker and Curry are more scorers than passers.

We really need Simmons

The bad thing is that I think we do have some willing passers, but when the ball gets to Knight, or sometimes Bledsoe it stops. Or they start out with it in the first place and it never gets passed at all.

[jcsunsfan]

Suns don't need a pass-first point guard if they are good passing as a team. Spurs and Warriors are great at distributing the ball though Parker and Curry are more scorers than passers.

We really need Simmons

The bad thing is that I think we do have some willing passers, but when the ball gets to Knight, or sometimes Bledsoe it stops. Or they start out with it in the first place and it never gets passed at all.

The problem is that they pass only when they are trying to bail themselves out rather trying to set a teammate up.

[letsgosuns]

Suns don't need a pass-first point guard if they are good passing as a team. Spurs and Warriors are great at distributing the ball though Parker and Curry are more scorers than passers.

We really need Simmons

This is true. However you need an unselfish point guard willing to make the right play. That is the key. Parker and Curry are scorers but unselfish. They also score efficiently. There were times during Parker's prime where he was leading the league for guards for fg% in the paint. Curry obviously shoots at an extremely high fg% as well. Curry can also get 10+ assists whenever he wants.

Players like Knight have tunnel vision, are extremely inefficient scorers, and are stupid. That is the worst part. Their basketball iq is very low.

When you actually look at Knight, there are so many cons and very few pros.
Knight's pros: excellent wide open set shooter, plays hard, has a good motor
Knight's cons: ball handling, inefficiency, playmaking, passing, iq, defense, size for a two guard,

[lilfishi22]

Suns don't need a pass-first point guard if they are good passing as a team. Spurs and Warriors are great at distributing the ball though Parker and Curry are more scorers than passers.

We really need Simmons

The bad thing is that I think we do have some willing passers, but when the ball gets to Knight, or sometimes Bledsoe it stops. Or they start out with it in the first place and it never gets passed at all.

The problem is that they pass only when they are trying to bail themselves out rather trying to set a teammate up.

That's exactly my observation bwgood77 and jcsunsafn

Ball movement just won't exist organically when the two players that handle the ball at the start of each possession are looking to end that possession with it in their hands. Neither players are the type to set up anything more than a drive and kick. It's just so incredibly frustrating to watch when your "PG" is dribbling for 20 seconds and then settle for a long 2. Like seriously, you waste 20 seconds to settle for a long 2? That's the best shot you can get? Bledsoe is a little bit better because at least he attacks the basket and he's better at getting open shots.

Then when we do see some ball movement, most of the time it's without purpose so it ends up going back to the PG's who "bail" them out with an iso play.

[lilfishi22]

This is true. However you need an unselfish point guard willing to make the right play. That is the key. Parker and Curry are scorers but unselfish. They also score efficiently. There were times during Parker's prime where he was leading the league for guards for fg% in the paint. Curry obviously shoots at an extremely high fg% as well. Curry can also get 10+ assists whenever he wants.

Players like Knight have tunnel vision, are extremely inefficient scorers, and are stupid. That is the worst part. Their basketball iq is very low.

When you actually look at Knight, there are so many cons and very few pros.
Knight's pros: excellent wide open set shooter, plays hard, has a good motor
Knight's cons: ball handling, inefficiency, playmaking, passing, iq, defense, size for a two guard,

I don't think Knight has a terribly low bball IQ. I really think he lacks the skills (as you've mentioned) to be more than just a gunner. That's why he settles so often for long 2's. I've seen time and time again, he would get a mismatch at the top of the key only to settle for a long two after making his move instead of using the mismatch to set up a play or get in for a higher % shot.

[bwgood77]

The bad thing is that I think we do have some willing passers, but when the ball gets to Knight, or sometimes Bledsoe it stops. Or they start out with it in the first place and it never gets passed at all.

The problem is that they pass only when they are trying to bail themselves out rather trying to set a teammate up.

That's exactly my observation bwgood77 and jcsunsafn

Ball movement just won't exist organically when the two players that handle the ball at the start of each possession are looking to end that possession with it in their hands. Neither players are the type to set up anything more than a drive and kick. It's just so incredibly frustrating to watch when your "PG" is dribbling for 20 seconds and then settle for a long 2. Like seriously, you waste 20 seconds to settle for a long 2? That's the best shot you can get? Bledsoe is a little bit better because at least he attacks the basket and he's better at getting open shots.

Then when we do see some ball movement, most of the time it's without purpose so it ends up going back to the PG's who "bail" them out with an iso play.

I really do wonder if this is something a new coach can fix. I remember in a Pelton chat a Raptors fan was complaining about DeRozan iso-ing and blaming Casey or whatever and Pelton's response was something like "well if you are going to have DeRozan on your team, that is what he is going to do. That's his game.

Westbrook has had similar issues in the past, but also has gotten much better as passing, so maybe it can get better, though I can hardly compare Knight to Westbrook.

I know Hornacek wants more ball movement and has preached it, and perhaps people tune it out and would listen to something else, but you just have to wonder if people just get tired of playing with people like Knight, just like they do with Kobe.

You can also talk about benching guys if they don't listen, but then if you bench Bledsoe and Knight, what do you do at PG?

It's really tough for me to know if it's mostly due to youth, roster construction, coaching, constant roster turnover along with injuries, disgruntled players, or what. It's likely a combination of everything.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months.

[lilfishi22]

The problem is that they pass only when they are trying to bail themselves out rather trying to set a teammate up.

That's exactly my observation bwgood77 and jcsunsafn

Ball movement just won't exist organically when the two players that handle the ball at the start of each possession are looking to end that possession with it in their hands. Neither players are the type to set up anything more than a drive and kick. It's just so incredibly frustrating to watch when your "PG" is dribbling for 20 seconds and then settle for a long 2. Like seriously, you waste 20 seconds to settle for a long 2? That's the best shot you can get? Bledsoe is a little bit better because at least he attacks the basket and he's better at getting open shots.

Then when we do see some ball movement, most of the time it's without purpose so it ends up going back to the PG's who "bail" them out with an iso play.

I really do wonder if this is something a new coach can fix. I remember in a Pelton chat a Raptors fan was complaining about DeRozan iso-ing and blaming Casey or whatever and Pelton's response was something like "well if you are going to have DeRozan on your team, that is what he is going to do. That's his game.

Westbrook has had similar issues in the past, but also has gotten much better as passing, so maybe it can get better, though I can hardly compare Knight to Westbrook.

I know Hornacek wants more ball movement and has preached it, and perhaps people tune it out and would listen to something else, but you just have to wonder if people just get tired of playing with people like Knight, just like they do with Kobe.

You can also talk about benching guys if they don't listen, but then if you bench Bledsoe and Knight, what do you do at PG?

It's really tough for me to know if it's mostly due to youth, roster construction, coaching, constant roster turnover along with injuries, disgruntled players, or what. It's likely a combination of everything.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months.

Sometimes when I watch the Suns play and see a lot of similarities with the local team I play with. We practice a lot of passing in "practice" but we might only see 2 or 3 possessions throughout the whole game where we might swing the ball at the top of the key and then the rest of the time, we just go with the "offense" we're comfortable with, which are iso plays. I think that's a similar issue with the Suns. For sure the Suns practice ball movement during training but I feel no one is confident is pulling the trigger thus it goes back into the hands of our two PG's for an iso play. Hornacek can preach ball movement as much as he likes but we just don't have the scorers outside of Bledsoe/Knight(could be Kieff in that category) that WANTS the ball in their hands.

Westbrook used to play with blinders on but he's so damn aggressive and he does have elite one on one skills which allows his passing game to be opened up once he matured enough to be more of a playmaker. Bledsoe has a similar game but I don't feel he has the same IQ as Westbrook nor the ideal team mate to allow him to be a better passer.

[AtheJ415]

Tony Douglas hit Marcus in the nuts. New favorite player.

[AtheJ415]

That's exactly my observation bwgood77 and jcsunsafn

Ball movement just won't exist organically when the two players that handle the ball at the start of each possession are looking to end that possession with it in their hands. Neither players are the type to set up anything more than a drive and kick. It's just so incredibly frustrating to watch when your "PG" is dribbling for 20 seconds and then settle for a long 2. Like seriously, you waste 20 seconds to settle for a long 2? That's the best shot you can get? Bledsoe is a little bit better because at least he attacks the basket and he's better at getting open shots.

Then when we do see some ball movement, most of the time it's without purpose so it ends up going back to the PG's who "bail" them out with an iso play.

I really do wonder if this is something a new coach can fix. I remember in a Pelton chat a Raptors fan was complaining about DeRozan iso-ing and blaming Casey or whatever and Pelton's response was something like "well if you are going to have DeRozan on your team, that is what he is going to do. That's his game.

Westbrook has had similar issues in the past, but also has gotten much better as passing, so maybe it can get better, though I can hardly compare Knight to Westbrook.

I know Hornacek wants more ball movement and has preached it, and perhaps people tune it out and would listen to something else, but you just have to wonder if people just get tired of playing with people like Knight, just like they do with Kobe.

You can also talk about benching guys if they don't listen, but then if you bench Bledsoe and Knight, what do you do at PG?

It's really tough for me to know if it's mostly due to youth, roster construction, coaching, constant roster turnover along with injuries, disgruntled players, or what. It's likely a combination of everything.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months.

Sometimes when I watch the Suns play and see a lot of similarities with the local team I play with. We practice a lot of passing in "practice" but we might only see 2 or 3 possessions throughout the whole game where we might swing the ball at the top of the key and then the rest of the time, we just go with the "offense" we're comfortable with, which are iso plays. I think that's a similar issue with the Suns. For sure the Suns practice ball movement during training but I feel no one is confident is pulling the trigger thus it goes back into the hands of our two PG's for an iso play. Hornacek can preach ball movement as much as he likes but we just don't have the scorers outside of Bledsoe/Knight(could be Kieff in that category) that WANTS the ball in their hands.

Westbrook used to play with blinders on but he's so damn aggressive and he does have elite one on one skills which allows his passing game to be opened up once he matured enough to be more of a playmaker. Bledsoe has a similar game but I don't feel he has the same IQ as Westbrook nor the ideal team mate to allow him to be a better passer.

Bledsoe's a plenty good passer imo. Nobody passes well in Jeff's system. Ish Smith currently has a 40+% assist percentage. In Jeff's system, he had a worse % than Bledsoe this year. Goran's assist % dropped from 35% before Hornacek to 28, then 22, then 20 in his time in Phoenix, while immediately jumping to 28% in Miami without Bosh and in a new system (although I realize the 20 year he was playing SF a lot in the hydra, but he had the ball a lot the year before that). Isaiah Thomas's assist % dropped from 32 in SAC to 23 in Phoenix, and immediately climbed to 35% in Boston. Point being, Eric's assist %'s are as good as Lowry and Dragic's ever were at the same age, and his turnover % is on par as well. I think he's fine passing, although obviously he has room to improve (and judging by history of PGs, despite what many say on this board, they DO IMPROVE as passers and get better running offenses as their understanding of the game increases).

We've had many PGs, many who have left and proven to be much better passers than they ever showed in this system. There is 1 common denominator here, and I don't understand the free passes given and constant belittling of our guys to achieve it (although I fully admit Knight makes me want to rip my arm off and throw it at the TV at times). The system itself is not conducive to assists. It's built around exploiting 1 on 1 mismatches and spacing the floor to prevent double teams off of those mismatches.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bledser01&y1=2016&p2=smithis01&y2=2014&y3=2014&p3=dragigo01&y4=2015&p4=thomais02&p5=&p6=

[bwgood77]

I really do wonder if this is something a new coach can fix. I remember in a Pelton chat a Raptors fan was complaining about DeRozan iso-ing and blaming Casey or whatever and Pelton's response was something like "well if you are going to have DeRozan on your team, that is what he is going to do. That's his game.

Westbrook has had similar issues in the past, but also has gotten much better as passing, so maybe it can get better, though I can hardly compare Knight to Westbrook.

I know Hornacek wants more ball movement and has preached it, and perhaps people tune it out and would listen to something else, but you just have to wonder if people just get tired of playing with people like Knight, just like they do with Kobe.

You can also talk about benching guys if they don't listen, but then if you bench Bledsoe and Knight, what do you do at PG?

It's really tough for me to know if it's mostly due to youth, roster construction, coaching, constant roster turnover along with injuries, disgruntled players, or what. It's likely a combination of everything.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months.

Sometimes when I watch the Suns play and see a lot of similarities with the local team I play with. We practice a lot of passing in "practice" but we might only see 2 or 3 possessions throughout the whole game where we might swing the ball at the top of the key and then the rest of the time, we just go with the "offense" we're comfortable with, which are iso plays. I think that's a similar issue with the Suns. For sure the Suns practice ball movement during training but I feel no one is confident is pulling the trigger thus it goes back into the hands of our two PG's for an iso play. Hornacek can preach ball movement as much as he likes but we just don't have the scorers outside of Bledsoe/Knight(could be Kieff in that category) that WANTS the ball in their hands.

Westbrook used to play with blinders on but he's so damn aggressive and he does have elite one on one skills which allows his passing game to be opened up once he matured enough to be more of a playmaker. Bledsoe has a similar game but I don't feel he has the same IQ as Westbrook nor the ideal team mate to allow him to be a better passer.

Bledsoe's a plenty good passer imo. Nobody passes well in Jeff's system. Ish Smith currently has a 40+% assist percentage. In Jeff's system, he had a worse % than Bledsoe this year. Goran's assist % dropped from 35% before Hornacek to 28, then 22, then 20 in his time in Phoenix, while immediately jumping to 28% in Miami without Bosh and in a new system (although I realize the 20 year he was playing SF a lot in the hydra, but he had the ball a lot the year before that). Isaiah Thomas's assist % dropped from 32 in SAC to 23 in Phoenix, and immediately climbed to 35% in Boston. Point being, Eric's assist %'s are as good as Lowry and Dragic's ever were at the same age, and his turnover % is on par as well. I think he's fine passing, although obviously he has room to improve (and judging by history of PGs, despite what many say on this board, they DO IMPROVE as passers and get better running offenses as their understanding of the game increases).

We've had many PGs, many who have left and proven to be much better passers than they ever showed in this system. There is 1 common denominator here, and I don't understand the free passes given and constant belittling of our guys to achieve it (although I fully admit Knight makes me want to rip my arm off and throw it at the TV at times). The system itself is not conducive to assists. It's built around exploiting 1 on 1 mismatches and spacing the floor to prevent double teams off of those mismatches.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bledser01&y1=2016&p2=smithis01&y2=2014&y3=2014&p3=dragigo01&y4=2015&p4=thomais02&p5=&p6=

Problem is more the roster make up than the system. When the GM puts together a team with a bunch of scoring PGs, they are going to have fewer assists. Even if they are scoring PGs, if they are on other teams without other scoring iso type PGs, they will have a higher assist %. Booker, Tucker and others move the ball quite a bit especially when the scoring PGs are out....even Len and Chandler each had 4 assists last night.

[jcsunsfan]

Lots of talk about a leadership problem in the locker room in Detroit. Is it a coincidence that wherever a Morris twin is, there is a leadership problem in the locker room?

[bwgood77]

Wow, David Blatt fired. Didn't really see that one coming.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Wow, David Blatt fired. Didn't really see that one coming.

The move itself doesn't surprise me just the timing. Blatt was a dead man walking once Bron didn't like him. Seems silly they do it now instead of just doing it last summer. Not sure how he could have been expected to perform any better than he has this season considering Irving's injury.

Kind of feels like the Cavs are panicking a little after they have come to the realization that they just aren't good enough to beat either the Warriors or Spurs in a 7 game series.. and that's not changing no matter who the coach is.

[bwgood77]

Wow, David Blatt fired. Didn't really see that one coming.

The move itself doesn't surprise me just the timing. Blatt was a dead man walking once Bron didn't like him. Seems silly they do it now instead of just doing it last summer. Not sure how he could have been expected to perform any better than he has this season considering Irving's injury.

Kind of feels like the Cavs are panicking a little after they have come to the realization that they just aren't good enough to beat either the Warriors or Spurs in a 7 game series.. and that's not changing no matter who the coach is.

Yeah, more the timing is what surprises me too. It just kind of seemed to come out of left field, though I guess they did just lose to the Spurs and Warriors but I think both were road games. But I guess one was a huge blowout.

[AtheJ415]

Sometimes when I watch the Suns play and see a lot of similarities with the local team I play with. We practice a lot of passing in "practice" but we might only see 2 or 3 possessions throughout the whole game where we might swing the ball at the top of the key and then the rest of the time, we just go with the "offense" we're comfortable with, which are iso plays. I think that's a similar issue with the Suns. For sure the Suns practice ball movement during training but I feel no one is confident is pulling the trigger thus it goes back into the hands of our two PG's for an iso play. Hornacek can preach ball movement as much as he likes but we just don't have the scorers outside of Bledsoe/Knight(could be Kieff in that category) that WANTS the ball in their hands.

Westbrook used to play with blinders on but he's so damn aggressive and he does have elite one on one skills which allows his passing game to be opened up once he matured enough to be more of a playmaker. Bledsoe has a similar game but I don't feel he has the same IQ as Westbrook nor the ideal team mate to allow him to be a better passer.

Bledsoe's a plenty good passer imo. Nobody passes well in Jeff's system. Ish Smith currently has a 40+% assist percentage. In Jeff's system, he had a worse % than Bledsoe this year. Goran's assist % dropped from 35% before Hornacek to 28, then 22, then 20 in his time in Phoenix, while immediately jumping to 28% in Miami without Bosh and in a new system (although I realize the 20 year he was playing SF a lot in the hydra, but he had the ball a lot the year before that). Isaiah Thomas's assist % dropped from 32 in SAC to 23 in Phoenix, and immediately climbed to 35% in Boston. Point being, Eric's assist %'s are as good as Lowry and Dragic's ever were at the same age, and his turnover % is on par as well. I think he's fine passing, although obviously he has room to improve (and judging by history of PGs, despite what many say on this board, they DO IMPROVE as passers and get better running offenses as their understanding of the game increases).

We've had many PGs, many who have left and proven to be much better passers than they ever showed in this system. There is 1 common denominator here, and I don't understand the free passes given and constant belittling of our guys to achieve it (although I fully admit Knight makes me want to rip my arm off and throw it at the TV at times). The system itself is not conducive to assists. It's built around exploiting 1 on 1 mismatches and spacing the floor to prevent double teams off of those mismatches.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bledser01&y1=2016&p2=smithis01&y2=2014&y3=2014&p3=dragigo01&y4=2015&p4=thomais02&p5=&p6=

Problem is more the roster make up than the system. When the GM puts together a team with a bunch of scoring PGs, they are going to have fewer assists. Even if they are scoring PGs, if they are on other teams without other scoring iso type PGs, they will have a higher assist %. Booker, Tucker and others move the ball quite a bit especially when the scoring PGs are out....even Len and Chandler each had 4 assists last night.

Ish Smith is currently 11th in APG. He's not a scoring PG and couldn't get assists with Jeff. The Spurs and Warriors both have scoring PGs who average 6.5 APG, and 5.2 APG, compared to Bledsoe's 6.1 APG this season, and neither of those teams have issues getting assists as a team.

Given the fact that every single PG playing under Jeff saw a drop in assist % and that that % rose after he left, isn't it more likely that Jeff's iso-based and pick and roll system results in more PG shots and more one on one scores for both PGs and other players than other offenses?

I mean half our offense last season was to dump it to Kieff, get out of the way, and occasionally cut to the hoop off the ball, but for the most part everybody on both teams knew he was shooting. That isn't really an assist opportunity for a guard at all. The other half was similar mismatch exploitation based on one on one plays, or end of clock pick and rolls, without an elite alley oop guy (Tyson hasn't been that for us either because he suddenly sucks), and with bad spacing thanks to the lineups Jeff insists on playing (he could have elite shooting on the court whenever he wants, but chooses PJ over Warren, this year's Kieff over Tele and Leuer, Tyson over Len or Leuer, and until injuries everyone over Booker, even Weems).

What do you guys really expect? Bledsoe to out assist Curry with none of the talent around him and in a system that doesn't call for the same ball movement (it's not motion off the ball centered, it's spacing centered, which is different)? I think our guys are selfish, but there are ways to control that or minimize it. Aldridge, for instance, has never been as unselfish as he is this year with SA. Jeff Teague is still selfish in Atlanta, although still noticeably less than before the coaching change. Other teams make the PGs work for their system and make the team run the system as its designed to be run. Jeff doesn't seem to be able to accomplish that with any PG, even Ish who is not a selfish scorer at all, and even when playing Goran at the 3, which should've given him passing advantages at the 2 and 3 spots.

Roster makeup, if it is a part of the problem, is a small part. The 76ers roster sucks and Ish gets dishes there. Isaiah got assists in Sac and Boston, but not here. Goran in Houston, then Phoenix before Jeff, but not after. We've had a ton of turnover at the time, and the guys have left for various roster situations, many of which have worse shooters than our team ever did around them. The odds that all of that is just coincidence doesn't fly imo.

I just think Jeff has the tools at his disposal to get more assists if he played more balanced lineups, but he tends to go all or nothing on offense or defense. Particularly with his pace and the amount of fast break points we get, our assist numbers ought to be at least average. Tucker and Chandler are almost always in, and then he started playing Price with them. That is a lineup that has no spacing and poor shooters galore. Assists are hard to come by with that lineup, versus a Bledsoe (if healthy), Booker, Warren, Tucker (small ball at the 4), Len lineup, which would have better defenders in Len and Tucker and Bledsoe and offensive options everywhere except for Tucker.

The most common theme of all to me is a cultural issue that points to Jeff being unable to discipline or control anybody who isn't just happy to be in the league and/or isn't in the biggest role of their life at that moment, and thus happy with the team. Young players who are rookies tend to do better with that because they haven't developed their egos fully as much as star vets. He handled the Morri until their egos grew too. He handled Goran until his ego grew. Egoless stars don't exist. We need stars to win a title. I have no faith in Jeff managing that balance.

[kennydorglas]

Blatt didnt even deserve to be in the League.
They thought he was a 'Yes, man' to serve from LeBron and he tried to showcase his 'skills'.
You could see the disaster coming from a MILE AWAY.

It's staggering how much power LeBron possesses right now.

Lue was always their man to keep LeBron 'calm'. It's really nice to be paid 9M in 3 years to be a counsellor.

[Jdiddy701]

Miles Turner 31pts, 8 Rebs vs the Warriors.


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