2015-16 Fake Trade Thread

[BatumtheGlue]

No Terrence Jones pls, Marvin is a much better player than him. Just NO.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4691014-nba-trade-market-atlanta-hawks-memphis-grizzlies-chicago-bulls-houston-rockets-cleveland-cavaliers



So SF is the main issue for this team but it wouldn't hurt to upgrade at center. Honestly this really shows the impact of the MKG injury to me. If we do any trades I would hope that we would address SF with the idea that the player would be MKG's likely backup going forward.

Pre-injury that Noah / Snell trade might have done that. It's the kind of trade that would help the team the most IMHO.

[fatlever]

I assume in this chart Batum is the SG and PJ is the SF.

[HornetJail]

Carrying the discussion from the Clifford thread:

Can we all agree that trading a lottery protected 1st to the Raptors in order to get Bismack back would be worth it? Or would Clifford play Spencer Hawes over him?

I would argue that it would be spending too much for an asset which we don't exactly need that much.

a) despite his stats, I think we can all agree that Biz is at his best when playing about 20-25 minutes. a lottery protected pick would be a hefty price for such a player.

b) his skills somewhat overlap with Cody's and we have a logjam at the front-court when Al is healthy. is this really the time to spend a pick for another big? it would be moreso justified if we at least had moved one of the bigs we already have.

c) due to his shortcomings, he plays a role and possesses skills which are largely replicable. if you want a more defensive-minded big than Hawes that's fine but I bet there are athletic bigs out there who can do 70% of what Biz does in 20mpg and can be acquired for a lesser price.

d) his deal expires in the summer of 2017. if you look at him as a core asset for the future of the franchise you might as well woo him over then. if I had to put an over/under for our playoff series wins before the summer of 2017, it would probably be 0.5. thus I don't see a real need to try out such a luxury (spending a lotto-protected pick on a 25mpg center) if we're not likely to go far in the playoffs during this time span.

a) No doubt he would be ~25mpg player. A lottery protected pick would end up somewhere in the 15-20 range. We're not looking at a very strong draft in 2016 from what I've heard so far, there are some nice names in the top 10, but the rest doesn't look too strong. Is a 15th-20th pick definitely going to yield an impact player worth starting for 30+ minutes some day? Typically, you expect top 10 picks to yield that, and someone in the 15-20 range that can start is typically seen as a gem. Even if we ended up dealing a 15th pick for Biz, it's probably an even deal.

b) This would obviously spell the end for Al in Charlotte. He'd be moved or bought out in a separate deal. Biz+Cody would be our center rotation, each one seeing the court for half the game and only playing together in spot minutes. Cody can't bring his defensive A-game every night, and their overlapping skill sets are a good thing since that's a skill set we need. If Biz is playing well and we need D and rebounds, he plays more than Cody. If Cody is playing well and we need offense, then he plays more than Biz.

c) I'd be happy to hear who these big men are that provide great rebounding and rim protection whose teams will give them away for cheap. If there's one out there, I'd love to acquire him.

d) My exact reasoning for being pissed off about the Batum trade. Yet we gave up our starting SG and our last season's #9 overall draft pick for one year of Batum, rather than an unknown draft pick that could be as late as #20 for 1.5 years of Biz. Batum has worked out very well here, but there was still a lot of risk in that deal. I'm more happy about Cho's drafting than most on here, but a late teens pick in what appears to be a mediocre draft is probably worth the defense and rebounding that Biz can bring to the table.

[yosemiteben]

Until I'm convinced that rim protection or rebounding is a weakness for this team, I don't buy the need for Biz. I understand the argument that our top tier paint defense and rebounding stats are due to overhelping and maybe that's true, but I would rather see us tweak our scheme than just say it's impossible and we need to force feed minutes to a flawed player who only helps in those areas to correct it, especially since we have been playing this whole season without our best and most effective defender. I'm going to need to see more definitive evidence that our bigs are the reason that we can't guard the perimeter before I buy that argument.

[LamarMatic7]

Carrying the discussion from the Clifford thread:

Can we all agree that trading a lottery protected 1st to the Raptors in order to get Bismack back would be worth it? Or would Clifford play Spencer Hawes over him?

I would argue that it would be spending too much for an asset which we don't exactly need that much.

a) despite his stats, I think we can all agree that Biz is at his best when playing about 20-25 minutes. a lottery protected pick would be a hefty price for such a player.

b) his skills somewhat overlap with Cody's and we have a logjam at the front-court when Al is healthy. is this really the time to spend a pick for another big? it would be moreso justified if we at least had moved one of the bigs we already have.

c) due to his shortcomings, he plays a role and possesses skills which are largely replicable. if you want a more defensive-minded big than Hawes that's fine but I bet there are athletic bigs out there who can do 70% of what Biz does in 20mpg and can be acquired for a lesser price.

d) his deal expires in the summer of 2017. if you look at him as a core asset for the future of the franchise you might as well woo him over then. if I had to put an over/under for our playoff series wins before the summer of 2017, it would probably be 0.5. thus I don't see a real need to try out such a luxury (spending a lotto-protected pick on a 25mpg center) if we're not likely to go far in the playoffs during this time span.

a) No doubt he would be ~25mpg player. A lottery protected pick would end up somewhere in the 15-20 range. We're not looking at a very strong draft in 2016 from what I've heard so far, there are some nice names in the top 10, but the rest doesn't look too strong. Is a 15th-20th pick definitely going to yield an impact player worth starting for 30+ minutes some day? Typically, you expect top 10 picks to yield that, and someone in the 15-20 range that can start is typically seen as a gem. Even if we ended up dealing a 15th pick for Biz, it's probably an even deal.

b) This would obviously spell the end for Al in Charlotte. He'd be moved or bought out in a separate deal. Biz+Cody would be our center rotation, each one seeing the court for half the game and only playing together in spot minutes. Cody can't bring his defensive A-game every night, and their overlapping skill sets are a good thing since that's a skill set we need. If Biz is playing well and we need D and rebounds, he plays more than Cody. If Cody is playing well and we need offense, then he plays more than Biz.

c) I'd be happy to hear who these big men are that provide great rebounding and rim protection whose teams will give them away for cheap. If there's one out there, I'd love to acquire him.

d) My exact reasoning for being pissed off about the Batum trade. Yet we gave up our starting SG and our last season's #9 overall draft pick for one year of Batum, rather than an unknown draft pick that could be as late as #20 for 1.5 years of Biz. Batum has worked out very well here, but there was still a lot of risk in that deal. I'm more happy about Cho's drafting than most on here, but a late teens pick in what appears to be a mediocre draft is probably worth the defense and rebounding that Biz can bring to the table.

a) That player though would be on a killer deal for four years. These rookie scale contracts will be worth even more under the new rise in the cap.

c) I'm talking about athletic guys like Miles Plumlee, per example. Gets no burn in Milwaukee, has very good athleticism, a decent head on his shoulders and probably could replicate about 70% of what Biz does if Clifford and the coaching staff spend some time with him.

[HornetJail]

a) That player though would be on a killer deal for four years. These rookie scale contracts will be worth even more under the new rise in the cap.

c) I'm talking about athletic guys like Miles Plumlee, per example. Gets no burn in Milwaukee, has very good athleticism, a decent head on his shoulders and probably could replicate about 70% of what Biz does if Clifford and the coaching staff spend some time with him.

a) the two years we would have Biz, it would be like a rookie scale contract. The other two are likely not that cheap, but that's the risk I'm willing to take for a guy that's already proven to be good at the skills we need out of him.

c) A guy like Miles Plumlee would be nice to have as a third string project big man. He'd be a prime target for the Greensboro Swarm next season. You can ask fans of Phoenix and Milwaukee (Phoenix especially, since they saw him quite a bit), he's not a good basketball player at all. Signing him in the offseason to be our backup would be like signing Brian Roberts as your backup point guard. Oh wait we already did that.

Until I'm convinced that rim protection or rebounding is a weakness for this team, I don't buy the need for Biz. I understand the argument that our top tier paint defense and rebounding stats are due to overhelping and maybe that's true, but I would rather see us tweak our scheme than just say it's impossible and we need to force feed minutes to a flawed player who only helps in those areas to correct it, especially since we have been playing this whole season without our best and most effective defender. I'm going to need to see more definitive evidence that our bigs are the reason that we can't guard the perimeter before I buy that argument.

We're halfway through the season. The Jazz game was game #41. I think it's pretty evident by now.

[yosemiteben]

Until I'm convinced that rim protection or rebounding is a weakness for this team, I don't buy the need for Biz. I understand the argument that our top tier paint defense and rebounding stats are due to overhelping and maybe that's true, but I would rather see us tweak our scheme than just say it's impossible and we need to force feed minutes to a flawed player who only helps in those areas to correct it, especially since we have been playing this whole season without our best and most effective defender. I'm going to need to see more definitive evidence that our bigs are the reason that we can't guard the perimeter before I buy that argument.

We're halfway through the season. The Jazz game was game #41. I think it's pretty evident by now.

It's evident that we have elite paint defense and rebounding stats but I've seen literally zero statistical or even anecdotal evidence that our bigs are responsible for our terrible perimeter defense. Let's see the examples of our wings doubling the post, resulting in open threes. I guarantee you for every example of that I could show you four examples of our guys playing lazy D and getting burned by leaving their man wide open.

[Braggins]

I don't know. The eye test and the stats don't align for me when it comes to paint defense and rebounding.

I understand why it seems this way for rebounding. We definitely have weak rebounding bigs but our scheme makes up for it. I still don't like that we are limiting what should be one of our biggest strengths, transition offense, in order to make up for our personnel issues. There still seems to be too many games where we get abused on the boards by teams that aggressively go for offensive rebounds. Getting MKG back will probably go a long way to fixing this.

I can't reconcile our interior defensive stats with what I actually see at all though. I'm just going to not think too much into and hope everything will be ok when MKG comes back.

[Braggins]

Guys I would probably trade our 1st round pick for that might be available...
John Henson
Jusuf Nurkic
Joffrey Lauvergne
Myers Leonard
Robert Covington
Donatas Motiejunas

Guys I would trade 2nd round picks for...
Markieff Morris
Timofey Mosgov
Alexis Ajinca
Dewayne Dedmon
Lucas Nogueira

[yosemiteben]

I can't reconcile our interior defensive stats with what I actually see at all though. I'm just going to not think too much into and hope everything will be ok when MKG comes back.

Honestly that's probably the right answer here, I'm kind of in the same spot.

[BeesWax]

I don't know. The eye test and the stats don't align for me when it comes to paint defense and rebounding.

I understand why it seems this way for rebounding. We definitely have weak rebounding bigs but our scheme makes up for it. I still don't like that we are limiting what should be one of our biggest strengths, transition offense, in order to make up for our personnel issues. There still seems to be too many games where we get abused on the boards by teams that aggressively go for offensive rebounds. Getting MKG back will probably go a long way to fixing this.

I can't reconcile our interior defensive stats with what I actually see at all though. I'm just going to not think too much into and hope everything will be ok when MKG comes back.

It is weird but I think it has to do with driving the lane. We have nobody inside to protect so wings are crashing down more and they do not recover like MKG could. He was so good at getting back out under control and stopping open looks. Without any defensive presence down low we have committed to rebounding and interior defense as a team but the issue seems to be if we commit to early we get kick out burned. I do think if we could add MKG it would help and if we add some big that can play even a little interior defense protecting the rim it would help even more.

[LamarMatic7]

c) A guy like Miles Plumlee would be nice to have as a third string project big man. He'd be a prime target for the Greensboro Swarm next season. You can ask fans of Phoenix and Milwaukee (Phoenix especially, since they saw him quite a bit), he's not a good basketball player at all.

I'll just have to disagree with you about that. Saw him plenty during that 2013-14 season, he has a place in an NBA team's rotation, imo.

[yosemiteben]

I don't know. The eye test and the stats don't align for me when it comes to paint defense and rebounding.

I understand why it seems this way for rebounding. We definitely have weak rebounding bigs but our scheme makes up for it. I still don't like that we are limiting what should be one of our biggest strengths, transition offense, in order to make up for our personnel issues. There still seems to be too many games where we get abused on the boards by teams that aggressively go for offensive rebounds. Getting MKG back will probably go a long way to fixing this.

I can't reconcile our interior defensive stats with what I actually see at all though. I'm just going to not think too much into and hope everything will be ok when MKG comes back.

It is weird but I think it has to do with driving the lane. We have nobody inside to protect so wings are crashing down more and they do not recover like MKG could. He was so good at getting back out under control and stopping open looks. Without any defensive presence down low we have committed to rebounding and interior defense as a team but the issue seems to be if we commit to early we get kick out burned. I do think if we could add MKG it would help and if we add some big that can play even a little interior defense protecting the rim it would help even more.

The issue IMO is that our guards are not good at containing penetration. They aren't crashing down to help our bigs contain their own men - if they are crashing it down it's because our bigs have to step up to try to contain because our defenders can't stay in front of their men.

You have to ignore the numbers to say it's because we lack rim protection. Cody and Marv are both posting top 10 rim protection stats this season, and that's supported by the eye test.

[Joest2003]

No Terrence Jones pls, Marvin is a much better player than him. Just NO.

We could play small ball with Jones at the 5. I guarantee he would be more productive than Zeller. We need some toughness on this team.

[BatumtheGlue]

No Terrence Jones pls, Marvin is a much better player than him. Just NO.

We could play small ball with Jones at the 5. I guarantee he would be more productive than Zeller. We need some toughness on this team.

Cody is better at C position than Jones. Toughness and Jones shouldn't be in a same sentence.

[Joest2003]

No Terrence Jones pls, Marvin is a much better player than him. Just NO.

We could play small ball with Jones at the 5. I guarantee he would be more productive than Zeller. We need some toughness on this team.

Cody is better at C position than Jones. Toughness and Jones shouldn't be in a same sentence.

That's because they have Howard playing center with Jones at the 4. If he came here and played center he would be a monster. We all seen what happened to Drummond this year after they got rid of Monroe. And if we're comparing him to Zeller then toughness would be putting it lightly.

[BatumtheGlue]

We could play small ball with Jones at the 5. I guarantee he would be more productive than Zeller. We need some toughness on this team.

Cody is better at C position than Jones. Toughness and Jones shouldn't be in a same sentence.

That's because they have Howard playing center with Jones at the 4. If he came here and played center he would be a monster. We all seen what happened to Drummond this year after they got rid of Monroe. And if we're comparing him to Zeller then toughness would be putting it lightly.

I have seen a lot of Rockets games, because of Ariza. Yes, he is why i watched a lot of Rockets games. I just couldnt see Jones is what we need right now. We need a rim protector big, not a stretch big, because we already have Marvin who is good enough for a 3 and D PF. And yes , Jones is a good shootblocker from the weakside, but it doesn't mean he is a good post defender nor a rim protector, he sucks at it. Another reason is, he is not a good finisher at rim, i couldn't count how many blocked layups he had

Sorry for my bad grammar, hope you could understand what i mean.

Jones = NO

[Braggins]

Denver has three good young centers in Jokic, Nurkic, and Lauvergne. Seems like they should want to flip one for a different asset as they definitely aren't going to need all three long term and they currently aren't able to get them all enough minutes. I think Jokic is playing the most of the three and hes averaging about 19 minutes.

Jokic seems to be the best of the three and has the highest upside. His combination of size, shooting, and passing is really impressive. I'd imagine he is off the table.

That leaves Nurkic and Lauvergne. Nurkic fits what we need the best and is currently getting the least amount of playing time, but hes also three years younger than Lauvergne. Lauvergne seems to be a weak rim protector, but he is averaging 5.5 rebounds in 18 minutes and is shooting over 40% from deep on 1.1 attempts per game. Hes also shooting 90% from the free throw line. Hes older than the other two at 24 already.

I think I'd rather have Nurkic but if Lauvergne is the most available due to being the older and overlapping with Jokic in terms of his skill set would he be worth a 1st round pick with some protection? I haven't seen him a lot but I'm leaning towards yes. Its not often that someone like that is as available as he theoretically should be.

PJ + 1st for Lauvergne works.

[BatumtheGlue]

^
^
Count me in to that trade. Except i'l throw Psycho T to that trade and keep PJ as an insurance fo our 2/3 position.