We Must Commit To Our Youth, Stop Making Them Role Players

[SOUL]

WARNING: Long post/rant ahead.

As I look through most teams in similar situations as ours (young team wishing for playoffs), we by far give the least opportunity (via minutes or FGA or involvement) to our high draft picks compared to most other teams (this is in no way advocating we give a lion's share to particular players, just to highlight have much we've been hiding them and stifling them).

It's like the entire coaching staff/management/fans forgot we are rebuilding through the draft (which doesn't necessarily mean losing if you do it right).

Hezonja is hovering at 3.9 attempts a game as our 5th pick who has a calling card of shooting. When he's out there, that's what he has to do (along with some playmaking), point blank.

AG had 4 attempts last year and only 5.6 this year and has shown he can actually do things on the offensive end contrary to popular belief.

Tobias came over Milwaukee and attempted 14+ shots a game, 11-14 the next few years.

Vucevic came over and immediately shot 10+ a game.

Oladipo was given 15 to pretty decent results last year.

Towns is at 12.6, Wiggins at 14 his rookie year and 16.7 this year. Randle is at 10.2, Smart was at 7.1, Russell 11.6, Mudiay 12.5, Noel was at 8.7, Kaminsky 6.8, Stanley 8.7, Porzingis 11.9, Jabari was 10.5, LaVine 8.8 and 10.8. Booker only at 6.4 but as of this month is getting more attempts and playing good, MCW 10-15 various years, Exum (who was allergic to shooting) had 5.0 attempts, Winslow 5.2.

I can keep going and going, but you catch my drift. I added both players that are ready, and ones that weren't and that are better and worse offensively.

**********************

Payton got a fair amount of shots realistic to his offensive level his rookie year, but it's fair to say that the ball should be in his hands more this year instead of being passed around the perimeter for bad shots. Oladipo went through a slump this year but is finally getting to be the Dipo we all saw from last year.

We rarely see a lineup of our picks from the last 4 years together let alone 3 of them playing at the same time. For some reason, we always promote veteran players that aren't stars to dictate the offense. From Nelson to Afflalo to Big Baby to Willie Green to Ben Gordon to Jason Smith. Now we're getting to the territory where we're not sure that the players that have came in and showed promise like Tobias and Vucevic and Oladipo (to a small extent) actually can be legit first or second options on a team. But they aren't quite in that territory yet because I think most of the players on this team would be more effective in a different offense than the one we are running

We have declared that we have no stars before giving a real shot at running the team, let alone running plays for our high draft picks that we have tanked for. It's crazy to me when I hear that we'll never have a star because we treat most of our players like role players the minute they get here.

Oladipo has looked like an all-star, if not solid player that is learning the game before his huge slump and people gave up on him.

Payton has looked like a legit point guard who great vision and a ton of positive aspects to his game with the ball in his hands.

AG is showing that he actually has offense and is being criminally underused, and purposely ignored by certain members of the team.

Hezonja has been a whirlwind on the court, good and bad. He looked completely overmatched at times early on in the season but has cut down his defensive mistakes recently. We use him to the tune of barely 4 shots a game sans blowouts.

I know there will be struggles, I get that. I read the Sam Mitchell article that shows a lot of bad tendencies from young players coming out of AAU or just bad systems growing up and that they're going against men, I get that. I understand there is a lot that we as fans do not see which makes coaches want to play the more "steady hand" veterans.

I'm not advocating that all of our youth should just dominate the game 48 minutes and take all of the shots. Would that be cool? Yeah, I guess, but it's unrealistic and will not win much games -- but they can be way more involved both in lineups together and in shots created for them (in AG and Mario's case) than they currently are.

I get that people love when players work hard for something and aren't given everything. It's the American way, right? I feel like we do that to an extent where it's a detriment. Teams like the Wolves aren't winning anything this year, but they have players like KG and Prince to get in the ear of the young players when they mess up or aren't familiar with a situation. I feel like we have players that just shoot bad shots on the court and don't really provide a mentor role.

Every other young team is giving more attempts to their younger players. Bucks fans are pissed that they only get around 9-13 attempts each game for Jabari/Giannis, they'd go insane if they saw how we do it.

I predicted 9th seed for the team this year because I was under the impression that we'd actually involve players more and run certain lineups and play a certain style. We haven't done much of what I expected. The fans and management for that matter sort of half-assed the rebuild and bought into the "suddenly we should be a winning team now" thing without wanting to give the appropriate time to most of the players we actually tanked for. We didn't tank for Fournier or Harris or Vucevic, we traded for them. We drafted 4 players that we are pretending are role players.

[SOUL]

And I know there are certain posters that are going to say "they need to earn it!", "aw yeah I pop boners to hardhats and lunch pails, get off my lawn and stop with the hippity hop." Yeah, I get it, they don't need to be coddled. But they need to be able to make mistakes at the same level as less effective players and know that there is faith from the coaching staff that they can get it done. If they're truly hurting the team, yank them obviously.

I know I'll hear "we have 20 wins already!" amongst other things, that isn't what I'm touching on. I'm glad we can beat worse teams on a daily basis although I'm not even sure about that anymore. I'm not saying Fire Skiles. I'm not saying start all of our young players, just give them more opportunities and let them play together so we can see our future and not do an undervaluing of our own players if we decide to trade them.

We were sold one thing from management and the coaching staff and we always see a different thing on the court year in and year out. We rushed everything sloppily and think we're the Spurs all of a sudden when in reality, we're in the same boat as most of these teams. We just know less about our players.

[the_hobo]

Perma-bench Frye, Harris, and Fournier.

Play Nicholson, Gordon, and Mario.

If we're going to miss playoffs with these jokers, then we need to try to win with our future core.

Good post Soul

[SOUL]

Perma-bench Frye, Harris, and Fournier.

Play Nicholson, Gordon, and Mario.

If we're going to miss playoffs with these jokers, then we need to try to win with our future core.

Good post Soul

Thanks. I hope people read what I post instead of glossing over it to debate me over small things. When we started this rebuild, I wasn't a fan. But I've enjoyed the ride and following the younger players because I figured that's what we'd be featuring. 2-3 years in and I'm shocked. I'm progressively harder on players each year when they have more experience/pay, but it's hard for me now to follow that pattern when certain players get more or less of a fair shake at things.

Nicholson is an odd case for me. I hate his game and I like it. I think he can be super effective in certain lineups and love when he's on the block. I like his rebounding. I don't like the staring at open teammates on the 3 point line thing and stalling ball movement backdown. If he kicks it out in both scenarios, he can re-post or just get a nice assist. He should be used more in the post for sure.

[BadMofoPimp]

No coach in NBA history played rookies just for the sake of getting them minutes if the team is battling for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs are out of reach, then NBA coaches gift rookies minutes without earning them.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I think its too early to throw in the towel but I wouldn't mind seeing Payton, Dipo, Mario, AG, Vooch. Earlier in the season I'd never say that but as of late Fournier is playing like ass while Harris has been...I don't know. "Ok" not really a game changer. I'd rather see what this young group could do for at least a few games.

In reality no coach would do that though and certainly not at this juncture.

[SOUL]

No coach in NBA history played rookies just for the sake of getting them minutes if the team is battling for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs are out of reach, then NBA coaches gift rookies minutes without earning them.

That's my point though, we sort of assumed we were going to be a playoff team when none of us had any idea. Usually picks in the top 5 will get PT or opportunity unless it was a Darko scenario.

Regardless, all of this is a moot point if he starts the process now of committing playing time towards groups of certain players and getting other ones more involved or else it will be a never ending cycle of 2nd and 3rd year players being introduced to certain nuances and situations that they probably should've experienced already relative to the talent of the team they were on.

[SOUL]

I think its too early to throw in the towel but I wouldn't mind seeing Payton, Dipo, Mario, AG, Vooch. Earlier in the season I'd never say that but as of late Fournier is playing like ass while Harris has been...I don't know. "Ok" not really a game changer. I'd rather see what this young group could do for at least a few games.

In reality no coach would do that though and certainly not at this juncture.

I wouldn't say never. Did you see the punishment lineup Skiles threw out there? He is a wildcard lol.

And like I said, it could be a good thing. Play those lineups and see if it actually is legit, and it's not like we wouldn't play our regulars as well, just in different roles and less minutes depending on their game.

[BadMofoPimp]

No coach in NBA history played rookies just for the sake of getting them minutes if the team is battling for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs are out of reach, then NBA coaches gift rookies minutes without earning them.

That's my point though, we sort of assumed we were going to be a playoff team when none of us had any idea. Usually picks in the top 5 will get PT or opportunity unless it was a Darko scenario.

Regardless, all of this is a moot point if he starts the process now of committing playing time towards groups of certain players and getting other ones more involved or else it will be a never ending cycle of 2nd and 3rd year players being introduced to certain nuances and situations that they probably should've experienced already relative to the talent of the team they were on.

I have never seen a NBA Organization give up fighting for the playoffs being only (1) game out of the 8th spot. Much less before midseason!!!

Look at Otto Porter. He barely played his rookie season. "Look at him now!"

[BadMofoPimp]

I think its too early to throw in the towel but I wouldn't mind seeing Payton, Dipo, Mario, AG, Vooch. Earlier in the season I'd never say that but as of late Fournier is playing like ass while Harris has been...I don't know. "Ok" not really a game changer. I'd rather see what this young group could do for at least a few games.

In reality no coach would do that though and certainly not at this juncture.

I wouldn't say never. Did you see the punishment lineup Skiles threw out there? He is a wildcard lol.

And like I said, it could be a good thing. Play those lineups and see if it actually is legit, and it's not like we wouldn't play our regulars as well, just in different roles and less minutes depending on their game.

Skiles has played those young lineups when the Magic were getting blown out. And, they still had a hard time keeping up with other teams backups much less opponents starters.

[SOUL]

No coach in NBA history played rookies just for the sake of getting them minutes if the team is battling for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs are out of reach, then NBA coaches gift rookies minutes without earning them.

That's my point though, we sort of assumed we were going to be a playoff team when none of us had any idea. Usually picks in the top 5 will get PT or opportunity unless it was a Darko scenario.

Regardless, all of this is a moot point if he starts the process now of committing playing time towards groups of certain players and getting other ones more involved or else it will be a never ending cycle of 2nd and 3rd year players being introduced to certain nuances and situations that they probably should've experienced already relative to the talent of the team they were on.

I have never seen a NBA Organization give up fighting for the playoffs being only (1) game out of the 8th spot. Much less before midseason!!!

Come on BMP, I've seen your posts advocating starting Gordon. Stop the trolling schtick for once and agree with me lol.

What we're doing now is not working. And I don't call it giving up playing talented players together more and giving certain players more opportunity. If I said give 80 shots to these 4 players and don't play anybody else, obviously you'd have a point.

Would you rather lose with Drummond, Johnson, KCP and Jackson or Baynes, Morris (I had to add a solid player), Ilyasova and Tolliver?

[SOUL]

I think its too early to throw in the towel but I wouldn't mind seeing Payton, Dipo, Mario, AG, Vooch. Earlier in the season I'd never say that but as of late Fournier is playing like ass while Harris has been...I don't know. "Ok" not really a game changer. I'd rather see what this young group could do for at least a few games.

In reality no coach would do that though and certainly not at this juncture.

I wouldn't say never. Did you see the punishment lineup Skiles threw out there? He is a wildcard lol.

And like I said, it could be a good thing. Play those lineups and see if it actually is legit, and it's not like we wouldn't play our regulars as well, just in different roles and less minutes depending on their game.

Skiles has played those young lineups when the Magic were getting blown out. And, they still had a hard time keeping up with other teams backups much less opponents starters.

I'd have to see stats for how good/bad they've been, but generally speaking I think any lineup with Shabazz and a bunch of rookies shouldn't dictate how they play in other lineups whether they play good or bad in the young lineup in the first place. Shabazz needs to be stricken from the record books.

[BadMofoPimp]

That's my point though, we sort of assumed we were going to be a playoff team when none of us had any idea. Usually picks in the top 5 will get PT or opportunity unless it was a Darko scenario.

Regardless, all of this is a moot point if he starts the process now of committing playing time towards groups of certain players and getting other ones more involved or else it will be a never ending cycle of 2nd and 3rd year players being introduced to certain nuances and situations that they probably should've experienced already relative to the talent of the team they were on.

I have never seen a NBA Organization give up fighting for the playoffs being only (1) game out of the 8th spot. Much less before midseason!!!

Come on BMP, I've seen your posts advocating starting Gordon. Stop the trolling schtick for once and agree with me lol.

What we're doing now is not working. And I don't call it giving up playing talented players together more and giving certain players more opportunity. If I said give 80 shots to these 4 players and don't play anybody else, obviously you'd have a point.

Would you rather lose with Drummond, Johnson, KCP and Jackson or Baynes, Morris (I had to add a solid player), Ilyasova and Tolliver?

If coach starts playing Gordon 30mpg like he did last night, then I am all for it. But, Frye does play within the "system" much better than Gordon who freelances just too often. I like Gordon for just one thing that is severely lacking on this team, Defense. He doesn't have to start if he just gets some more minutes. I am just saying that players should earn their spots on playoff contending teams.

[SOUL]

If coach starts playing Gordon 30mpg like he did last night, then I am all for it. But, Frye does play within the "system" much better than Gordon who freelances just too often. I like Gordon for just one thing that is severely lacking on this team, Defense. He doesn't have to start if he just gets some more minutes. I am just saying that players should earn their spots on playoff contending teams.

What is your ideal lineup? Do you feel this offense fits the team?

(I won't ask about defense since Skiles defenses shouldn't really be questioned if we run it correctly.)

[MagicStarwipe]

I don't know Soul. I'm pretty sure treating Fournier like an All-NBA player is the direction we need to keep heading in. And who needs athletic lineups on the floor in the NBA? Besides, I listen to all of coach Skiles' postgame press conferences and am now under the impression that we have no NBA level talent anyway, so what's the point?

[BadMofoPimp]

If coach starts playing Gordon 30mpg like he did last night, then I am all for it. But, Frye does play within the "system" much better than Gordon who freelances just too often. I like Gordon for just one thing that is severely lacking on this team, Defense. He doesn't have to start if he just gets some more minutes. I am just saying that players should earn their spots on playoff contending teams.

What is your ideal lineup? Do you feel this offense fits the team?

(I won't ask about defense since Skiles defenses shouldn't really be questioned if we run it correctly.)

I do think the future of this team barring any trades is:

Elf
Dipo
Harris
AG
Vooch

6th Man: Mario behind Dipo/Harris

[BadMofoPimp]

I don't know Soul. I'm pretty sure treating Fournier like an All-NBA player is the direction we need to keep heading in. And who needs athletic lineups on the floor in the NBA? Besides, I listen to all of coach Skiles' postgame press conferences and am now under the impression that we have no NBA level talent anyway, so what's the point?

This team would not have won almost half their games if they had no NBA level talent.

[MagicStarwipe]

If coach starts playing Gordon 30mpg like he did last night, then I am all for it. But, Frye does play within the "system" much better than Gordon who freelances just too often. I like Gordon for just one thing that is severely lacking on this team, Defense. He doesn't have to start if he just gets some more minutes. I am just saying that players should earn their spots on playoff contending teams.

What is your ideal lineup? Do you feel this offense fits the team?

(I won't ask about defense since Skiles defenses shouldn't really be questioned if we run it correctly.)

I'll take a stab at it. Going over every pick and roll whether a player can shoot or not. Running Fournier, Harris, Frye and Vucevic in the starting lineup and expecting to be a top 10 defense

[SOUL]

I do think the future of this team barring any trades is:

Elf
Dipo
Harris
AG
Vooch

6th Man: Mario behind Dipo/Harris

Fair enough, although I fundamentally think we have two ways of going about things as far as the future of our team. I'd rather follow the model of throwing them out there and benching them when they're really hurting the team thing rather than the slow roast approach where we sort of cap their ceilings temporarily (or permanently in a bad case) and make sure they learn every nuance before being handed the keys. Both have worked in the NBA. I feel the second way is actually way more susceptible to undervaluing and misjudging which is why we see a lot of young players blossom in different circumstances because they get traded, burnt out, buried, etc. Above all though, I just want us to play with more energy and pace -- it just so happens that we play players that do not excel in those areas.

I also feel like most teams that take the second approach have perennial playoff teams.

[BadMofoPimp]

I do think the future of this team barring any trades is:

Elf
Dipo
Harris
AG
Vooch

6th Man: Mario behind Dipo/Harris

Fair enough, although I fundamentally think we have two ways of going about things as far as the future of our team. I'd rather follow the model of throwing them out there and benching them when they're really hurting the team thing rather than the slow roast approach where we sort of cap their ceilings temporarily (or permanently in a bad case) and make sure they learn every nuance before being handed the keys. Both have worked in the NBA. I feel the second way is actually way more susceptible to undervaluing and misjudging which is why we see a lot of young players blossom in different circumstances.

I also feel like most teams that take the second approach have perennial playoff teams.

Actually, just about every successful team that is battling for the playoffs uses the slow roast approach to make sure youth learn every nuance before being handed the keys. That way they don't learn bad habits just because they been gifted the green light.

I think I have seen just as many players careers go badly due to being givin the green light too early as later on. Because, if they are given the green light early then after a year or two are sent to backup to a better player the team has, the player's career usually nosedives because they feel entitled.

There is nothing stating that AG, Mario etc will be superstars much less All-Stars. If that happens, it will be because they earn that status through hard work, determination and earning those minutes.