Can we wait until end of next season to acquire a legit PG?

Johnny Hoops · Post #141 » by **Johnny Hoops** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:10 pm

My biggest concern with Grant and I have a few concerns with him is NOT his shooting because that can always be improved with work.

I mostly concerned that he doesn't look natural on the court -- he always looks confused (almost like JR/Shump trying to play in the triangle). There are just too many instances where he's standing outside the 3-point line dazed/confused either holding or pounding the ball and going nowhere. Then once he makes a decision -- he almost always ends up with either a rushed shot or a very difficult off-balance shot. You compare that to a great PG like say Chris Paul who is almost always on balance / under control regardless of the situation. I'm not expecting him to be CP3 but I'm just saying he seems to lack pure PG instincts -- particularly given that he was a 5th year senior when we picked him.

Johnny Hoops · Post #142 » by **Johnny Hoops** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:13 pm

Even when we put Grant in high pick-roll situations more often than not he ends up going right and throwing up a tough running hook shot or lay-up attempt under severe duress. He's been best when kicking the ball back out to KP6 but he raterly looks smooth or decisive .

Post #143 » by **dakomish23** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:33 pm

PGs generally look awful the first half of their rookie season. It's in the 2nd half you can see growth and better gauge what they need to do to become the full time floor general.

I feel like we didn't give enough opportunity to Grant and deal with the growing pains, so we won't see that growth in the 2nd half of the season.

But hey, at least we got to see Sasha play more minutes here than he would in any league anywhere.

SMDFH

AmazingJason · Post #144 » by **AmazingJason** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:39 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:My biggest concern with Grant and I have a few concerns with him is NOT his shooting because that can always be improved with work.

I mostly concerned that he doesn't look natural on the court -- he always looks confused (almost like JR/Shump trying to play in the triangle). There are just too many instances where he's standing outside the 3-point line dazed/confused either holding or pounding the ball and going nowhere. Then once he makes a decision -- he almost always ends up with either a rushed shot or a very difficult off-balance shot. You compare that to a great PG like say Chris Paul who is almost always on balance / under control regardless of the situation. I'm not expecting him to be CP3 but I'm just saying he seems to lack pure PG instincts -- particularly given that he was a 5th year senior when we picked him.

Yeah that's a concern. Initially, I was giving Grant the benefit of the doubt, figuring that he was overwhelmed with the triangle. There's been flashes, but overall he hasn't looked anywhere near a competent PG at all. Even when he's running S/R.

KnicksGadfly · Post #145 » by **KnicksGadfly** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:43 pm

Damn this board has really gone nuts. For a while, I kept hearing "Start Grant." Now I'm hearing he's a bust.

He'll be alright. Just give him time to grow. He's a useful player...we just need to figure out how to let him grow. Guarantee that if he was on San Antonio right now that we would be pissed off at Phil Jackson for not drafting him.

AmazingJason · Post #146 » by **AmazingJason** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:45 pm

wang000hk wrote:I had high hope in Grant turning to be a decent starter for this team,and took the starting role from Jose since day 1 of 2016

No,his plays are very disappointing
Triangle or not,there isn't any excuse for 23y/o rookie PG to shoot 14% from the 3
His handles,speed aren't anything special,he doesn't have a jumpshot and just as bad as Jose on defense,if not worse

If the rookie has potential to be good,he must have figured out to play in certain system after several games
He already played in half of the season,and only had 1 good game so far

I don't watch every rookie this year,but I am almost sure he's one of the worst rookies drafted in first round,based on the numbers as well as eye test
If he was drafted in top 10,he would be a clear bust
I don't see him as future prospect anymore,he might turn out to be a solid backup on some other teams one day
But I wouldn't be surprised if he's out of the league after his rookie contract ends

Payne was drafted near him, and he looks so much more poised, and TBH, he just looks so much more skilled than Grant. If he has space, he'll shoot - which he's great at. If he gets into the lane, he'll use his floater to score. Or he'll find teammates. Grant doesn't seem to have enough NBA skills or athleticism to complement his passing. He looks like a project that'll take a few years, and even then, he may just end up being a decent backup.

kej718 · Post #147 » by **kej718** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:57 pm

Would much rather start Galloway, and have Grant as a backup. Maybe go for a SG?
Tony Allen?

Post #148 » by **King of Canada** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:00 pm

We should merge a few of these point guard threads together

Greenie · Post #149 » by **Greenie** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:01 pm

You guys thought I was crazy with FJU...

NYKnicksTAPE · Post #150 » by **NYKnicksTAPE** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:15 pm

knicksh20b wrote:Damn this board has really gone nuts. For a while, I kept hearing "Start Grant." Now I'm hearing he's a bust.

He'll be alright. Just give him time to grow. He's a useful player...we just need to figure out how to let him grow. Guarantee that if he was on San Antonio right now that we would be pissed off at Phil Jackson for not drafting him.

I wanted him to start during the offseason, but towards the end of the preseason, I realized that he had no business being a starting PG.

He looks decent at best in a fast paced setting, but in a half court game he doesn't even look like an NBA caliber player. He needs a ton of work. He shows flashes every now and then so hopefully he gets it together.

TrueWarrior · Post #151 » by **TrueWarrior** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:27 pm

Grant has looked bad. Not going to sugarcoat it. Can't even say he hasn't gotten minutes because outside of Larry Nance Jr. he's gotten more than all other players picked outside the lotto. The starting PG spot was his to take.

Even PGs who can't shoot can find other ways to help. Jerian has been bad at pretty much everything. Not throwing the towel in on him yet since I still do see the flashes, but yes for a 5th year senior/23 year old I was expecting a much more NBA ready guy. Now is not the best time to be having his first kid either, when he has so many other things on his mind and hasn't even begun to establish his career yet. I also don't want to blame the system on everything, because Jerian hasn't done basic basketball things well. We shouldn't have to baby his confidence like he's 19 either. This guy just had a son, so it's time to treat him like a man. Maybe a D League stint would help.

A move needs to be made for a PG. Even just a couple 10 days.

wang000hk · Post #152 » by **wang000hk** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:29 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:Even when we put Grant in high pick-roll situations more often than not he ends up going right and throwing up a tough running hook shot or lay-up attempt under severe duress. He's been best when kicking the ball back out to KP6 but he raterly looks smooth or decisive .

This annoys me too
It's like he doesn't know what he should do when he has the ball on his hand

I mean Gallo wasn't this bad last year when he's an undrafted rookie

Post #153 » by **moocow007** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:14 pm

NYKnicksTAPE wrote:Elliot Williams was straight up garbage against us. He literally couldn't penetrate inside the 3 point line against us. He was picking up his dribble at half court. Most of the guys in the D-League are bums. If we're not getting a PG through a trade, then there's really no point. Jimmer, Trice, or whatever other dude from the D-League isn't going to do anything.

This is what happens in the D-League...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8xNkNUFcQk[/youtube]

Yeah I said the same thing about Williams when his name first surfaced by some folks. Not all D-League stars are meant for anything more than the D-League (obviously some guys from the D-League have turned out to be fine NBA players) but some D-League stars simply don't have the type of skill to be able to translate it into anything noticeable in the NBA. Elliot Williams is the type of player that fits the later mold. He's not good enough with the handles to control his dribble against NBA defenses, he doesn't have the shot creating ability nor a quick/accurate enough shot to match up against NBA defenders. And his defense isn't really that good either so it would be hard for him to find a role as a defensive guy off the bench.

AmazingJason · Post #154 » by **AmazingJason** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:23 pm

moocow007 wrote:
NYKnicksTAPE wrote:Elliot Williams was straight up garbage against us. He literally couldn't penetrate inside the 3 point line against us. He was picking up his dribble at half court. Most of the guys in the D-League are bums. If we're not getting a PG through a trade, then there's really no point. Jimmer, Trice, or whatever other dude from the D-League isn't going to do anything.

This is what happens in the D-League...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8xNkNUFcQk[/youtube]

Yeah I said the same thing about Williams when his name first surfaced by some folks. Not all D-League stars are meant for anything more than the D-League (obviously some guys from the D-League have turned out to be fine NBA players) but some D-League stars simply don't have the type of skill to be able to translate it into anything noticeable in the NBA. Elliot Williams is the type of player that fits the later mold. He's not good enough with the handles to control his dribble against NBA defenses, he doesn't have the shot creating ability nor a quick/accurate enough shot to match up against NBA defenders. And his defense isn't really that good either so it would be hard for him to find a role as a defensive guy off the bench.

We should look into this Kelly fella. Guy looks like the next Nowtizki :lol:

Post #155 » by **moocow007** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:58 pm

Regarding Grant (and this is with me being a big fan of his at Notre Dame)...

I mentioned this before, Grant is not a pure PG. I'm not sure why folks kept not only calling him a PG but also saying that he can be a starting PG. Grant CAN BE a solid 6th or 7th man, a combo guard. That's what I said originally before the draft and even after the draft. And before anyone says that then we wasted a pick, getting a solid bench guy with a late 1st round pick is value...absolutely it is. Not every 1st rounder is a starter especially ones drafted in the bottom 3rd of the 1st round.

That said, yes, Grant has struggled and he has looked "lost" (as some folks have pointed out). Could be typical rookie behavior, could be something more. Folks need to realize that his role has not be clear and the system isn't necessarily best suited for his skill set. If we were more than willing to give veterans a year+ to learn the Triangle (see excuses for last season's suckitude) wouldn't it be fair to give a rookie with irregular role and misfitting skills at least more than half that time?

I know folks want players to instantly come in and look great (and I'm sure Grant not only being in the same draft class but also on the same team as a player that supposedly was much rawer than him but who came in an provided instant gratification didn't help him any) but it's not realistic. Can he turn out to be nothing? Sure. But still a bit early to jump wagons.

earthmansurfer · Post #156 » by **earthmansurfer** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:02 pm

evevale wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
wang000hk wrote:While he isn't perfect,we should have kept Shved

Shved was damn near perfect for this system. But I'm glad we went with Seraphin over him. He really helps to make sure the right bench and the left bench have an equal amount of people on it. You know, I've seen a bench lift up in the air, dangerously so, when only two people were on it and the one from one end got up and the guy at the other end was too close to the end and fulcrumed it up. Just a dangerous situation.

Was about to get pretty annoyed when you said you were happy about keeping Seraphin, then continued reading for progressively amusing troll post. WP sir.

On a serious note, every time we play JLin it genuinely just hurts me. He's overrated, he can only take it strong to one side and his defense isn't anything particularly special but goddamn does he shred us like no other. It's seriously like LINSANITY every single time he plays us. Just pisses me off, especially since Fisher just loves to put Lolderon on him ... I don't know who is more incapable of defending him than our good ol' resident Spaniard. That isn't to hate on him either, I like him, I just don't think he should start, ever.

All in all we are who we are and most of us are realistic about that. We're doing much better than we were last season, we are a watchable team that gets blown out a lot less than we are used to. Just have to keep believing we can pull out some more good wins and grow as a team rather than give up on each other and let the season slip away.

I thought of using green font early on but just went with the humor of the whole situation.

Yeah, the Lin thing hurts. I loved the guy here and said maybe he just played under the NY spotlight well. I think that is what it is. I don't think he has hard feelings against us but for sure, especially with our current situation, wants to show what we missed out on. I mean how many years have we been looking for a good PG since Lin? And then we get Shved who played damn near great here and we just let him slide by cause the triangle doesn't need a good PG! LOL

Post #157 » by **moocow007** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:03 pm

AmazingJason wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
NYKnicksTAPE wrote:Elliot Williams was straight up garbage against us. He literally couldn't penetrate inside the 3 point line against us. He was picking up his dribble at half court. Most of the guys in the D-League are bums. If we're not getting a PG through a trade, then there's really no point. Jimmer, Trice, or whatever other dude from the D-League isn't going to do anything.

This is what happens in the D-League...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8xNkNUFcQk[/youtube]

Yeah I said the same thing about Williams when his name first surfaced by some folks. Not all D-League stars are meant for anything more than the D-League (obviously some guys from the D-League have turned out to be fine NBA players) but some D-League stars simply don't have the type of skill to be able to translate it into anything noticeable in the NBA. Elliot Williams is the type of player that fits the later mold. He's not good enough with the handles to control his dribble against NBA defenses, he doesn't have the shot creating ability nor a quick/accurate enough shot to match up against NBA defenders. And his defense isn't really that good either so it would be hard for him to find a role as a defensive guy off the bench.

We should look into this Kelly fella. Guy looks like the next Nowtizki

Yep. What folks need to do is to not just watch the player as he scores (or otherwise doesn't something nice) in D-League. Look at everything else going on around him. How open do opposing defenses allow him to be. How small and/or slow are those defenders he's going up against (both individually and collectively). How quick (or slow) is his shot. How tight are his handles. How much elevation does he get. ETc. etc. Now transpose that with actual defenders and opposing defenses that NBA teams have and think can he really do all of that? Anyone can dunk with a wide open lane. A lot of guys can shoot if you give him 3-5 seconds to shoot it. That's D-League, that's Euro league, that's CBA to varying degrees. That's NOT the NBA. It's why Beasley and Crawford can score 60+ points in the CBA but can't do anything remotely like that in the NBA.

earthmansurfer · Post #158 » by **earthmansurfer** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:04 pm

RHODEY wrote:
evevale wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
Shved was damn near perfect for this system. But I'm glad we went with Seraphin over him. He really helps to make sure the right bench and the left bench have an equal amount of people on it. You know, I've seen a bench lift up in the air, dangerously so, when only two people were on it and the one from one end got up and the guy at the other end was too close to the end and fulcrumed it up. Just a dangerous situation.

Was about to get pretty annoyed when you said you were happy about keeping Seraphin, then continued reading for progressively amusing troll post. WP sir.

On a serious note, every time we play JLin it genuinely just hurts me. He's overrated, he can only take it strong to one side and his defense isn't anything particularly special but goddamn does he shred us like no other. It's seriously like LINSANITY every single time he plays us. Just pisses me off, especially since Fisher just loves to put Lolderon on him ... I don't know who is more incapable of defending him than our good ol' resident Spaniard. That isn't to hate on him either, I like him, I just don't think he should start, ever.

All in all we are who we are and most of us are realistic about that. We're doing much better than we were last season, we are a watchable team that gets blown out a lot less than we are used to. Just have to keep believing we can pull out some more good wins and grow as a team rather than give up on each other and let the season slip away.

He makes what 2 million a year?... easily starts on our team and I think we'd be in playoff contention with him.

Rhodey, honest truth, if we had Shved right now we would be at least 5 games over 500 imo. He just clicked in the triangle.
It is frustrating because we aren't go anywhere with Calderon at PG. Yeah, I know he is a nice guy and great for the locker room, but I'd rather be starting Shved with Grant off the bench when he is ready.

Post #159 » by **moocow007** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:55 pm

earthmansurfer wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
evevale wrote:Was about to get pretty annoyed when you said you were happy about keeping Seraphin, then continued reading for progressively amusing troll post. WP sir.

On a serious note, every time we play JLin it genuinely just hurts me. He's overrated, he can only take it strong to one side and his defense isn't anything particularly special but goddamn does he shred us like no other. It's seriously like LINSANITY every single time he plays us. Just pisses me off, especially since Fisher just loves to put Lolderon on him ... I don't know who is more incapable of defending him than our good ol' resident Spaniard. That isn't to hate on him either, I like him, I just don't think he should start, ever.

All in all we are who we are and most of us are realistic about that. We're doing much better than we were last season, we are a watchable team that gets blown out a lot less than we are used to. Just have to keep believing we can pull out some more good wins and grow as a team rather than give up on each other and let the season slip away.

He makes what 2 million a year?... easily starts on our team and I think we'd be in playoff contention with him.

Rhodey, honest truth, if we had Shved right now we would be at least 5 games over 500 imo. He just clicked in the triangle.
It is frustrating because we aren't go anywhere with Calderon at PG. Yeah, I know he is a nice guy and great for the locker room, but I'd rather be starting Shved with Grant off the bench when he is ready.

Yeah. Shved would be able to do one thing that Knicks guards have been unable to do, attack the basket. Shved showed that last season on a worse team where basically he was the no.1 option a lot of the time (Anthony was already on the DL). If he was able to do that being the focus, one would logically assume he can do that at least as well with better players on the team. Just because Shved isn't in the NBA doesn't mean that he's not better option for this team than at least some players currently on this team. Same could be said about Lin. Folks were LOL'ing when other folks mentioned Lin as an option (he sucks, he's crap, blah, blah, blah) and yet we saw what he can do just the other night and how he'd be the best guard on this team right now. Just because Shved isn't great doesn't mean he's crap or useless, especially for a team that is near dead last in drives to the basket. Now I can understand other teams saying that "oh that's just a by product of playing in the Triangle...we don't run that ****" but, last I checked, the Triangle IS what the Knicks are still trying to run...right? You got a freaking guy that was pretty successful not only in it, but in it in NY and what do you do? You pass on him for yet another C.

Johnny Hoops · Post #160 » by **Johnny Hoops** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:25 pm

moocow007 wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
He makes what 2 million a year?... easily starts on our team and I think we'd be in playoff contention with him.

Rhodey, honest truth, if we had Shved right now we would be at least 5 games over 500 imo. He just clicked in the triangle.
It is frustrating because we aren't go anywhere with Calderon at PG. Yeah, I know he is a nice guy and great for the locker room, but I'd rather be starting Shved with Grant off the bench when he is ready.

Yeah. Shved would be able to do one thing that Knicks guards have been unable to do, attack the basket. Shved showed that last season on a worse team where basically he was the no.1 option a lot of the time (Anthony was already on the DL). If he was able to do that being the focus, one would logically assume he can do that at least as well with better players on the team. Just because Shved isn't in the NBA doesn't mean that he's not better option for this team than at least some players currently on this team. Same could be said about Lin. Folks were LOL'ing when other folks mentioned Lin as an option (he sucks, he's crap, blah, blah, blah) and yet we saw what he can do just the other night and how he'd be the best guard on this team right now.

What is Schved's contract situation right now -- is there an out?

Even if he had an out -- it would seem given the deal he signed we would be too capped out (or completely capped out) where we can't sign him.