Game 44: Los Angeles (28-15) @ Toronto (28-15)

[QRich3]

Well, I'm pissed but I'm not really that pissed about yesterday's game. On the one hand watching Jamal and Austin destroy our team makes my blood boil, but on the other hand, the issue can't be more in-your-face obvious, so I guess this is just one step closer to dumping Jamal, Austin, or both. Or at the very least have Doc feel his job is threatened if he doesn't get his sh*t together. And we're one step closer to the Brooklyn pick too.

[BlzMwt]

i was at the game yesterday. I felt real bad for paul, redick and jordan. Looked like the really only competent players for the clippers. Hard with the Griffin injury to stagger their minutes because its not like they are all shot creators, so no benefit

Too clear how good the raptors bench is compared to the clippers. When the Raptors bring out Biyombo, Johnson, Joseph, Ross and actually extend leads. Lowry and Derozan are able to have their minutes staggered and actually got real good rest. Valanciunas was in foul trouble the whole game and still ended up with a great game.

Pretty much the epitome of having a deep team with a lack of "superstars" vs a team with two "superstars" and no depth at all. Really bites you when one of your superstars goes down.

[CoachD]

i was at the game yesterday. I felt real bad for paul, redick and jordan. Looked like the really only competent players for the clippers. Hard with the Griffin injury to stagger their minutes because its not like they are all shot creators, so no benefit

Too clear how good the raptors bench is compared to the clippers. When the Raptors bring out Biyombo, Johnson, Joseph, Ross and actually extend leads. Lowry and Derozan are able to have their minutes staggered and actually got real good rest. Valanciunas was in foul trouble the whole game and still ended up with a great game.

Pretty much the epitome of having a deep team with a lack of "superstars" vs a team with two "superstars" and no depth at all. Really bites you when one of your superstars goes down.

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

[CoachD]

Man how do you guys deal with watching Austin Rivers? I'm **** furious watching how he's destroying your team man... And Doc just keeps trotting him out there.... The nepotism is sickening man.

Why not use Lance to run the second unit?

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That's a very good question, and I'm not sure. I guess we don't deal with him since most of us aren't huge fans of him or Crawford, and even more so the combination of both.

Either Lance has gone out of his way to piss people off within the Clippers organization ... OR ... Doc has zero confidence in him running the team, or being a viable option.

OR

It would cost baby boy minutes, and he ain't havin that.

The ironic thing was how excited Doc sounded in the off season about acquiring Lance - making it seem like he'd be a solid member of their rotation.

Then Lance looks like Charlotte Lance and not Pacers Lance and gets relegated to garbage time.

[og15]

i was at the game yesterday. I felt real bad for paul, redick and jordan. Looked like the really only competent players for the clippers. Hard with the Griffin injury to stagger their minutes because its not like they are all shot creators, so no benefit

Too clear how good the raptors bench is compared to the clippers. When the Raptors bring out Biyombo, Johnson, Joseph, Ross and actually extend leads. Lowry and Derozan are able to have their minutes staggered and actually got real good rest. Valanciunas was in foul trouble the whole game and still ended up with a great game.

Pretty much the epitome of having a deep team with a lack of "superstars" vs a team with two "superstars" and no depth at all. Really bites you when one of your superstars goes down.

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

2.5 years? What?

Paul has averaged 20/5/11 per 36 the last 2.5 seasons with a .583 TS%

His playoff averages the last two seasons are 21/4/9 per 36, 48/44/86, .605 TS%

Maybe you're judging him on raw production in decreased minutes and not impact and production when he's actually on the floor, but to say Lowry has been better than him for 2.5 seasons? Going to have to give more support than just "I said so" for that one. I'm not even sure where you would start with your argument of Lowry being better than Paul last season, there's literally no starting point for that argument.

[QRich3]

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

lol no he has not. I do like Lowry a lot, but Paul has been playing close to MVP type of basketball for the last two years and a half, even with slow starts to the last two seasons. Lowry has never even got close to that output. You don't see Paul as much in sportscenter cause he's a known commodity, but that's a pretty ignorant thing to say even for a fan of another team who hasn't watched him play in a while.

[nickhx2]

ITT: some dude who' watches cp3 a couple times a year and on ESPN highlights going "yeah, kyle lowry can score just as much as cp3 so he's a superstar!"

[CoachD]

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

lol no he has not. I do like Lowry a lot, but Paul has been playing close to MVP type of basketball for the last two years and a half, even with slow starts to the last two seasons. Lowry has never even got close to that output. You don't see Paul as much in sportscenter cause he's a known commodity, but that's a pretty ignorant thing to say even for a fan of another team who hasn't watched him play in a while.

I'm one of the biggest Paul fans around. I covered him in high school, and for years have called him the best PG on the planet. Over the last couple of years.

If you watch Lowry on a regular basis - you'll realize he is really, really, really good.

[QRich3]

I do watch him often and I already said I like his game a lot. That's one thing, and hyperbole is another. Paul is a generational player, a borderline all time top 5 PG who's playing nearly as consistently as he did at his peak. Lowry is great but he has never been close to that.

[BlzMwt]

i was at the game yesterday. I felt real bad for paul, redick and jordan. Looked like the really only competent players for the clippers. Hard with the Griffin injury to stagger their minutes because its not like they are all shot creators, so no benefit

Too clear how good the raptors bench is compared to the clippers. When the Raptors bring out Biyombo, Johnson, Joseph, Ross and actually extend leads. Lowry and Derozan are able to have their minutes staggered and actually got real good rest. Valanciunas was in foul trouble the whole game and still ended up with a great game.

Pretty much the epitome of having a deep team with a lack of "superstars" vs a team with two "superstars" and no depth at all. Really bites you when one of your superstars goes down.

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

by what metric? last season Paul was clearly the better player. By box score stats, advanced metrics. He played in all 82, while Lowry played in 70. Lowry was also hurt in a bunch of the games he did play in.

The season before, 13-14, their basic box score facts are arguable. Despite Paul missing 20 games, he still fared better than Lowry in advanced metrics. And in the playoffs, Paul was clearly better than Lowry in more games.

This season? Paul has missed games, been playing hurt at times but has been rounding into form. Lowry has likely been the better player.

Your statement of Lowry has been playing better than paul for 2.5 years is a little ridiculous when in reality I think it has only been this season and could very well even themselves out by the end of season. If the you ask an NBA fan outside of this team specific forum, who who has been more of a superstar player the past 2 seasons, I'm sure the response will be Paul. Not just based on reputation, but the stats back it up.

[CoachD]

Well, I don't have the time to show a full analysis ...

So based on what I have handy ...

Just this season ...

Kyle is scoring 2 ppg more with 1 FGA per game less. Their 3ball is virtually identical, Paul average more assists, but that is mitigated by the Raptor style of play - you don't get assists on And1 plays, and they are one of the top teams at creating fouls.

Kyle also has more steals, more boards, and is playing better D.

DRPM - 2.00 1st among PGs with at least 31 mpg and 2nd overall (to Rubio)
Paul is at 0.38

Lowry RPM is 3rd at 7.21 above Paul's 6.04

RPM WINS for Lowry is at 9.33 while Paul is at 6.58

Lowry also has a higher win share that Paul 6.9 vs 5.9

Box Plus Minus is 7.3 while Paul's is 6.0

Lowry's VORP is 3.8 while Paul's is 2.7

If you don't wish to conceed that Lowry has surpassed Paul over the last couple seasons, you have to at LEAST admit he's playing at the same MVP level.

[CoachD]

i was at the game yesterday. I felt real bad for paul, redick and jordan. Looked like the really only competent players for the clippers. Hard with the Griffin injury to stagger their minutes because its not like they are all shot creators, so no benefit

Too clear how good the raptors bench is compared to the clippers. When the Raptors bring out Biyombo, Johnson, Joseph, Ross and actually extend leads. Lowry and Derozan are able to have their minutes staggered and actually got real good rest. Valanciunas was in foul trouble the whole game and still ended up with a great game.

Pretty much the epitome of having a deep team with a lack of "superstars" vs a team with two "superstars" and no depth at all. Really bites you when one of your superstars goes down.

Sorry ... but if Chris Paul is still considered a "superstar", and I don't know if he is ... then Lowry is too - since Lowry has been playing better than Paul for the last 2 and a half years.

by what metric? last season Paul was clearly the better player. By box score stats, advanced metrics. He played in all 82, while Lowry played in 70. Lowry was also hurt in a bunch of the games he did play in.

The season before, 13-14, their basic box score facts are arguable. Despite Paul missing 20 games, he still fared better than Lowry in advanced metrics. And in the playoffs, Paul was clearly better than Lowry in more games.

This season? Paul has missed games, been playing hurt at times but has been rounding into form. Lowry has likely been the better player.

Your statement of Lowry has been playing better than paul for 2.5 years is a little ridiculous when in reality I think it has only been this season and could very well even themselves out by the end of season. If the you ask an NBA fan outside of this team specific forum, who who has been more of a superstar player the past 2 seasons, I'm sure the response will be Paul. Not just based on reputation, but the stats back it up.

I will concede Lowry's stats and performance were way down last season from January onward because of the back spasms he was suffering through. Prior to that, I remember Bill Simmons ranting about how he's tired of people not recognizing that Lowry is AS GOOD as Paul.

His numbers are right there with him. If you throw out 2 seasons ago cuz Paul was injured, and last season because Kyle was injured - then look at what they are both doing now as I just posted.

Also keep in mind - Paul has the added advantage of a star in Blake and a beast in DJ to command low post doubles and open him up for wide open jumpers on the regular. He also has more catch and shoot guys and guys who finish off lobs than the Raptors do, which also make some of his box score numbers stand out.

[BlzMwt]

I will concede Lowry's stats and performance were way down last season from January onward because of the back spasms he was suffering through. Prior to that, I remember Bill Simmons ranting about how he's tired of people not recognizing that Lowry is AS GOOD as Paul.

His numbers are right there with him. If you throw out 2 seasons ago cuz Paul was injured, and last season because Kyle was injured - then look at what they are both doing now as I just posted.

Also keep in mind - Paul has the added advantage of a star in Blake and a beast in DJ to command low post doubles and open him up for wide open jumpers on the regular. He also has more catch and shoot guys and guys who finish off lobs than the Raptors do, which also make some of his box score numbers stand out.

If we are only talking about part of seasons, because Lowry was hurt after January last season... then can we take partial seasons of Paul? Can we take this season's games out where Paul was injured? Paul has clearly outplayed Lowry starting in January and let's see how the rest of the season plays out.

You listed a few metric stats that favour lowry for this year that benefit Lowry because Paul has missed games. Also, Paul has been hurt, like previously mentioned.

Paul has the added advantage of playing with a star in Blake? Paul's numbers typically go up when Griffin is out and last season he missed a lot of games, Paul kept the clippers afloat and had a career year statistically, at least percentage and durability wise.

I love how when people try to downplay Paul they hype up his supporting cast, particularly DJ. But when they want to rain down on the Clippers, they talk of how they have no depth and how DJ is one of the most overrated centers in the league. Which one is it? The Raptors have a decent amount of depth compared to the clippers, especially this season. Who has been these catch and shoot players that the clippers have outside of Redick?

Crawford? Rivers? Turkogly? Granger? Randy Foye? Caron Butler? Matt Barnes? You act like the Clippers have been stacked with depth and Paul has benefited from playing with these players outside of Grffin, DJ and Redick

[QRich3]

If you wanted to say "Lowry has started the season better than Paul" you should just say that. No need to exaggerate anything else. Even that would be arguable, but you'd have a solid case.

Paul has been the best offensive anchor in the game for nearly a decade, that's over guys like Lebron and Durant. That's not very arguable really, numbers and observation make most people agree to that. And as much as the hot-takers with an agenda like Simmons want it really hard that it's otherwise, he hasn't slowed down yet. All that about teammates and injuries sounds like a bunch of excuses really, if you do an in depth analysis accounting for teammates and whatever other stuff, it still says Paul has been one of the top players in the league for a decade. Lowry is just starting to get to that level and we'll have to see if he can sustain it for a whole season. Which is no slight to him, that's a big accomplishment still.

[nickhx2]

well put, friends

[og15]

Well, I don't have the time to show a full analysis ...

So based on what I have handy ...

Just this season ...

Kyle is scoring 2 ppg more with 1 FGA per game less. Their 3ball is virtually identical, Paul average more assists, but that is mitigated by the Raptor style of play - you don't get assists on And1 plays, and they are one of the top teams at creating fouls.

Kyle also has more steals, more boards, and is playing better D.

DRPM - 2.00 1st among PGs with at least 31 mpg and 2nd overall (to Rubio)
Paul is at 0.38

Lowry RPM is 3rd at 7.21 above Paul's 6.04

RPM WINS for Lowry is at 9.33 while Paul is at 6.58

Lowry also has a higher win share that Paul 6.9 vs 5.9

Box Plus Minus is 7.3 while Paul's is 6.0

Lowry's VORP is 3.8 while Paul's is 2.7

If you don't wish to conceed that Lowry has surpassed Paul over the last couple seasons, you have to at LEAST admit he's playing at the same MVP level.

Let's go this season and compare their per minute (per 36) numbers

Paul:
20.7 pts / 4.3 rebs / 10.8 ast / 3.1 tov / 2.3 stl / .562 TS%

Lowry:
20.4 pts / 4.9 rebs / 6.3 ast / 3.0 tov / 2.2 stl / .574 TS%

Raptors are 2nd in FT/FGA, Clippers are 6th, so also a team that gets to the line a lot, more so with Blake, and the hacking of DJ contributes a little to it.

You mentioned in your other post the value of Blake and DJ commanding low post doubles. Well first of all, DJ doesn't command double teams, Scola probably gets many more times the doubles than DJ. Secondly, Blake doesn't play that much in the low-post these days, but in the end, Paul is a player who is assisted very little.

Lowry:

19.3% 2PT assisted
74.4% 3PT assisted
3.0 Pull Up 3PT / 27.7% 3PT
3.9 Catch and Shoot 3PT / 48.2% 3PT

Chris Paul:

13.3% 2PT assisted
34.5% 3PT assisted
2.6 Pull Up 3PT / 35.6% 3PT
1.1 Catch and Shoot 3PT / 44.2% 3PT

As we see, Lowry is the one who benefits from being assisted by others. CP has generally been a guy who self creates his baskets.

Remember that your first post was saying that Lowry has been better for 2.5 seasons, that is 13-14 and 14-15 you're suggesting that Lowry was the better player. That's not even close to being true. Now this season, you can say he's started better, certainly, and that they are at a similar level of play, but there's litterally no argument for the previous two seasons. Not to mention when we look at the playoffs, Paul's production goes UP, and unless one is doing the sheep thing and following the stupid hot take narrative where Paul is somehow the one failing the Clippers in the playoffs despite the roster issues, he's been a great playoff performer.

Like Q-Rich, I'm also one who likes Lowry a lot too, and I was impressed by his weight loss and like his game and tenacity going to the basket, but come on, you gotta do some fact checking here.

[og15]

This has been Doc's problem ever since he took over. Find the right type of players, starters and bench, that can duplicate his 2008 Celtics championship team. The 2008 Celtics championship team is history now.

Trying to duplicate that team would be ridiculous anyways, just dumb

nick, you do not want Brandon j on this team. he is a black hole who is only interested in himself a la josh. he is another guy who should not be in the nba.

A slashing guard that the team could want is Isaiah Thomas, but he's too small to play with CP, so doesn't work, and there's nothing to trade for him anyways.

Alec Burks who got injured in the game against the Clippers is the type of player, but not realistic, nothing to offer. A slasher type guy that the team could actually acquire is someone like Lou Williams, but he has his own issues and is signed for two more seasons after this.

Rivers is a slashing guard, just that he doesn't do a lot of other things so well.