Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2)

[miller31time]

Isaiah Thomas named to the East All-Star reserves.

How many of us wanted him as a mid-year acquisition last season? And Boston got him for peanuts.

[closg00]

Isaiah Thomas named to the East All-Star reserves.

How many of us wanted him as a mid-year acquisition last season? And Boston got him for peanuts.

The list is very long of good players we could have had.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Isaiah Thomas named to the East All-Star reserves.

How many of us wanted him as a mid-year acquisition last season? And Boston got him for peanuts.

The list is very long of good players we could have had.

The Celtics sorta have a collection of them.

[TGW]

IRC, many liked the Singleton pick at the time. Reading through our own 2011 draft thread, people were right about Vesley but few wanted Leonard given that he shot under 30% from 3.

Singleton was rated pretty highly- ahead of Kawai Leonard by Draftexpress. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/. Obviously it turned out to be a poor pick but these picks are easier to make once the results are in.

That being said, while every GM makes mistakes in the draft, there haven't been really any good picks by EG, I think his best mid to late first round pick was Trevor Booker. Unless Oubre turns out to be a stud, the Wizards would be wise to go in a different direction given EG's draft history.

Kawai Leonard wouldn't be half as good as he is if he wasn't coached up by the Spurs coaching staff. I wholeheartedly believe that.

I honestly think if Pop had his hands on Vesely, he would have been a good player for them, too.

[dckingsfan]

IRC, many liked the Singleton pick at the time. Reading through our own 2011 draft thread, people were right about Vesley but few wanted Leonard given that he shot under 30% from 3.

Singleton was rated pretty highly- ahead of Kawai Leonard by Draftexpress. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/. Obviously it turned out to be a poor pick but these picks are easier to make once the results are in.

That being said, while every GM makes mistakes in the draft, there haven't been really any good picks by EG, I think his best mid to late first round pick was Trevor Booker. Unless Oubre turns out to be a stud, the Wizards would be wise to go in a different direction given EG's draft history.

Kawai Leonard wouldn't be half as good as he is if he wasn't coached up by the Spurs coaching staff. I wholeheartedly believe that.

I honestly think if Pop had his hands on Vesely, he would have been a good player for them, too.

I honestly believe that there is no way they would have taken Vesely in the first place.

[fishercob]

Someone had to say it. Enough.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BulletsForever/status/693102299456081920[/tweet]

[AFM]

FishCob blowing up! He's that kid!

[Illuminaire]

Kawai Leonard wouldn't be half as good as he is if he wasn't coached up by the Spurs coaching staff. I wholeheartedly believe that.

I honestly think if Pop had his hands on Vesely, he would have been a good player for them, too.

I strongly disagree on the first part. Leonard showed all the tools he's putting to use now in college - his length, defensive instincts, strength in the lane, etc... His free throw shooting was also a good reason to think he'd become a decent shooter (That's not hindsight, I argued that at draft time). He also displayed a very strong work ethic and passion for the game.

The Spurs probably did help him, and they are maximizing his talents. That's fair to say. But I think that's more of a last 5-10% thing, not "half".

On Vesely... it's an interesting thought experiment. A lot of his problems were mental. He could have been a perfectly usable center, sort of a poor man's Noah. But he thought of himself as a star SF despite having none of the skills. I believe the Spurs would have explained this and put him into position to be an effective NBA player, but I'm not sure Vesely would have taken advantage of it. Still, I'd agree that would have been a better situation and the chances of him being a real NBA player would have been higher.

[TheSecretWeapon]

The most important part of player development is player selection. Pick hard working guys who have been productive at lower levels, and, odds are, they'll work hard and be productive in the NBA. There is absolutely no barrier to improvement for a player who wants to improve. Coaches can help, but ultimately it comes down to spending time in a gym doing the same thing correctly over and over and over and over and over and over a gazillion times until it's second nature.

This is true of ANY skill.

That said, I do think the Wizards coaching staff has hurt Wall and Beal by letting them do things in games that are less than optimal. Taking so many 2pt jumpers is one example. Wall's persistently high turnovers. Wall's continued poor usage of screens. These would seem to be correctable "theory of the game" issues, NOT issues of skill. Take good shots. Value possessions. Use screens properly.

[Ruzious]

Someone had to say it. Enough.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BulletsForever/status/693102299456081920[/tweet]

Good point that choosing a new coach won't solve anything unless the person choosing the new coach is part of the team's future. To do this right, they need to change the GM before they change the coach.

[Dark Faze]

The most important part of player development is player selection. Pick hard working guys who have been productive at lower levels, and, odds are, they'll work hard and be productive in the NBA. There is absolutely no barrier to improvement for a player who wants to improve. Coaches can help, but ultimately it comes down to spending time in a gym doing the same thing correctly over and over and over and over and over and over a gazillion times until it's second nature.

This is true of ANY skill.

That said, I do think the Wizards coaching staff has hurt Wall and Beal by letting them do things in games that are less than optimal. Taking so many 2pt jumpers is one example. Wall's persistently high turnovers. Wall's continued poor usage of screens. These would seem to be correctable "theory of the game" issues, NOT issues of skill. Take good shots. Value possessions. Use screens properly.

I think there's definitely room for improvement in terms of getting more out of both guys, but Wall has taken some of the biggest strides I've seen any player take. There was a time where you could easily make the argument that he was more likely to bust then learn how to run a half court offense over night and find ways to play the game at more than one speed--but he did exactly that and more, and Witt gets credit for that.

I truly just think it's the roster right now. More than anything else, we NEED that second star besides Wall. The problems with John and Brad..both are cleaned up quite a bit by the presence of an all-star first option.

I realize it's not easy to do, but that's the business we're in. Meet objectives or find someone else that can.

[jimij]

I was talking with one of my friends at work this week about Ernie's draft history with the Wizards and we were questioning how many of his draft picks have ever earned a contract extension with the Wizards and we could only come up with two names (given that Beal, Porter, etc still could be re-signed in the future they don't count) and that realization was deeply disappointing.

The two guys were Wall who if he didn't earn an extension it would have been an even bigger problem since he was the first pick and Blatche who was then amnestied.

Its pathetic that with over a decade of drafting for this team and the only drafting successes he's had are top three picks. Maybe Oubre will change that but how the f*** we haven't at least gotten one other long-term starter in the draft is beyond me.

Obviously Wittman needs to go but (as we've been saying for five years) it doesn't matter who coaches this team as long as Ernie remains the GM our chances of real success are extremely limited.

[Dark Faze]

Almost makes me think there should be another position. Maybe it already exists and I just don't know the title...but just someone that's a left hand of the ownership. Someone that advises the owner how he sees everything--completely unbiased from the top down that can look at a GM's body of work and let the owner know if it's up to par.

I even think it should be the NBA's job. To maybe force owners at the end of the year to have a 30 minute meeting with an outside consultant group as something of an exit interview every year. Just something to stop clearly **** tier front offices from being allowed to party on year after year like the Kahns, Grunfelds, and Colangelos of the world. It'd be good for the NBA as a product.

[Ruzious]

It's getting close to asking WHEN not IF both EG and Wittman are going. We might need a date prediction thread. Just sayin.

[montestewart]

Someone had to say it. Enough.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BulletsForever/status/693102299456081920[/tweet]

Longevity+Futility=InconEGruity. Well said.

[closg00]

If we stay grouped a couple of games out of the 8th seed at the end of the season, I don't think Ted will change anything.

[nate33]

I absolutely agree that EG must go. To me, the only interesting question is the timing. The earlier EG is fired, the earlier we can find a replacement to prepare for the offseason and draft. But should EG be fired before the Trade Deadline? It seems unlikely that a good replacement could be hired in time to make informed decisions by then. If the plan is to fire EG in time for the offseason, then the best course is probably to fire him the day after the Trade Deadline. A GM isn't really needed in March, April and May anyhow.

But if EG is to be fired after the Trade Deadline, what latitude should he be given to clear the decks for the new GM? Do we want EG making those decisions?

My sense is that EG could be given instructions to trade away expiring contract vets like Dudley and Humphries in exchange for whatever assets we can get as long as they don't crimp our Durant cap room. EG can probably do that fairly well without screwing anything up. Then fire EG at the Trade Deadline.

Wittman can stick around for the rest of the year, unless the team senses his lame duck status and gives up on him.

Hmmm. Maybe Wittman should stick around even if the team gives up on him. It'll help the tank and might suppress the market value for Beal, Temple and Sessions (all of whom I'd like to keep around for the right price).

[TheSecretWeapon]

I don't see any reason to keep Grunfeld until the trade deadline. What would be the point? I don't want him making decisions for the team anymore. Tommy Sheppard can manage things until a full-time replacement is found.

[LyricalRico]

Hmmm. Maybe Wittman should stick around even if the team gives up on him. It'll help the tank and might suppress the market value for Beal, Temple and Sessions (all of whom I'd like to keep around for the right price).

Eh, I don't think they do a mid-season shake-up with the intent of tanking. They'd be doing it to salvage the season IMO.

[nate33]

Hmmm. Maybe Wittman should stick around even if the team gives up on him. It'll help the tank and might suppress the market value for Beal, Temple and Sessions (all of whom I'd like to keep around for the right price).

Eh, I don't think they do a mid-season shake-up with the intent of tanking. They'd be doing it to salvage the season IMO.

I disagree. If the decision is made to fire EG, then it would go hand-in-hand with a decision to throw in the towel on this season and instead build for next year.

Zach Lowe was discussing this with Brian Windhorst in his last podcast. There aren't very many "sellers" right now and they both speculated that Washington might decide to become a seller if they can't get back into the playoff race by the Trade Deadline. There's a bunch of teams looking to add an extra piece, and if the Wizards are one of the few sellers (along with Phoenix), then they might get a pretty good return for a guy like Dudley or Sessions.