Bucks - Heat

[Tfence92]

From a Heat fan perspective:

I don't care about trade 1. Micky's tax savings mean nothing at all to me as a fan, and the chances of us using your 2nd round pick for something valuable or almost zero. Swapping picks in 2019? We do expect to be competitive then so that's not a big deal for me either.

Trade 2 will not happen. Udonis Haslem is important to our team and he may not be traded, even if it is to quit and return as a coach as implied. I know his numbers are ugly but he is smart and vital to our locker room and bench. It's imperative (for now) that he is a player. If we want to make him a coach (Are you suggesting because you know that Keith Smart is in a long treatment for skin cancer? He should recover fine...), we'll just turn him into a player-coach.

Trade 3 is unlikely too. We have too many front court players and not enough guards. Richardson is going to have a chance this year. He is not guaranteed for next year, but if he works out, he'll probably stick around. Right now, it looks uncertain, but the ball's in his court. In contrast, I don't really see Plumlee getting much time at all.

You do realize that it's all technically one trade?

And to counter your points:
1.) Haslem was just in to get a better tax savings for you guys. He plays like 5 minutes once a week, I figured that opening up that roster spot and just making him a coach won't really change much. Not suggesting anything about Keith Smart fwiw, I just think he is basically already a coach so it's no change really.
That said, I realize that it would be very unlikely he is dealt.
2.) Bayless can come in and directly contribute in your front court, getting more minutes than Richardson.
On top of that I can't imagine how Plumlee doesn't get minutes in a backcourt that has Stoudemire, Andersen and Haslem?

I do. I critiqued each piece to help you understand the difficulty.

I don't really see a deal like this going down. I read your post a few times (it's been tequila time already) and am guessing you have the front court and back court exchanged. Stoudemire has been playing pretty well for us (crazy, right? Even defense...) and Haslem is very dependable. Andersen is clearly for sale and we don't want him hurt (though I doubt if it matters much - he is 37). I don't think we need Plumlee at all.

Bayless interests because he is a 42% 3 pt shooter this season, but that's an aberration. Over his career he is a 35.7% 3 pt shooter. He has a terrible defensive rating of 112, but that's not the biggest problem: he plays the wrong position. We actually need a spot up 3 point shooter who plays Small Forward, someone like Luol Deng if he hit a 3 at 37.5% or more.

So, yeah, I don't see this working out at all. By the way, Richardson is being trashed here as a 2nd rounder, but he's actually a kid with a lot of potential. He is 22 though, so... time's a ticking.

Taking a shot on Richardson is most of the value you here, considering 2nd rounders rarely hit and the pick swap could end up being nothing.

I don't love Richardson, and we have a developmental 2 guard for the future, but I'd be more than happy to take him on and give him a shot here; I think he can hang in this league.

As for what Miami needs, they can definitely use a shooter, but I think what you're getting fills a need. And for what you're probably going to end up giving up, I think you're getting good value: a solid back up PG who could probably play next to Wade for a few minutes a night and taking a shot on Plumlee to bolster up a frontcourt that will be collecting social security checks soon.

[skones]

You get Richardson and a 2nd for sure.

You open up more playing time for the likes of Vaughn.

Maybe you find some Dleague guy with some value with those open roster spots?

And then you have the possibility of getting a pick upgrade in a few years from a franchise that is getting older and older. Miami is at a cross roads the next year or two and they need to figure out what they are going to do there.

Nobody in their right mind is going to spend that amount of money on a second round pick and the likes of Josh Richardson who I don't like to begin with. That's the point. The pick swap is so far out that it's hard to justify that expenditure. The value here is based upon crossed fingers and nothing more.

Isn't that what most trades like this would be? You're trading away players now for a chance to get better ones in the coming year.

Please find me a trade where you're going to get something better for an expiring under sized 2 guard and a 27 year old 5 that has been buried on a bench for two seasons; not to mention he is also expiring, albeit with a $3M QO next year.

No. In most deals you do not light 4 million dollars on fire for Josh Richardson, a 2nd round pick 2 years out, and a maybe pick swap 3 years out.

[gom]

You do realize that it's all technically one trade?

And to counter your points:
1.) Haslem was just in to get a better tax savings for you guys. He plays like 5 minutes once a week, I figured that opening up that roster spot and just making him a coach won't really change much. Not suggesting anything about Keith Smart fwiw, I just think he is basically already a coach so it's no change really.
That said, I realize that it would be very unlikely he is dealt.
2.) Bayless can come in and directly contribute in your front court, getting more minutes than Richardson.
On top of that I can't imagine how Plumlee doesn't get minutes in a backcourt that has Stoudemire, Andersen and Haslem?

I do. I critiqued each piece to help you understand the difficulty.

I don't really see a deal like this going down. I read your post a few times (it's been tequila time already) and am guessing you have the front court and back court exchanged. Stoudemire has been playing pretty well for us (crazy, right? Even defense...) and Haslem is very dependable. Andersen is clearly for sale and we don't want him hurt (though I doubt if it matters much - he is 37). I don't think we need Plumlee at all.

Bayless interests because he is a 42% 3 pt shooter this season, but that's an aberration. Over his career he is a 35.7% 3 pt shooter. He has a terrible defensive rating of 112, but that's not the biggest problem: he plays the wrong position. We actually need a spot up 3 point shooter who plays Small Forward, someone like Luol Deng if he hit a 3 at 37.5% or more.

So, yeah, I don't see this working out at all. By the way, Richardson is being trashed here as a 2nd rounder, but he's actually a kid with a lot of potential. He is 22 though, so... time's a ticking.

Taking a shot on Richardson is most of the value you here, considering 2nd rounders rarely hit and the pick swap could end up being nothing.

I don't love Richardson, and we have a developmental 2 guard for the future, but I'd be more than happy to take him on and give him a shot here; I think he can hang in this league.

As for what Miami needs, they can definitely use a shooter, but I think what you're getting fills a need. And for what you're probably going to end up giving up, I think you're getting good value: a solid back up PG who could probably play next to Wade for a few minutes a night and taking a shot on Plumlee to bolster up a frontcourt that will be collecting social security checks soon.

Probably something like Andersen + 2017:31-40/2018 (you get the 2nd pick in 2017 if it doesn't confer to Atlanta or the 2018 2nd pick if it does) + Richardson for Bayless is one possibility and still saves money. If the Bucks insist, Riley would also likely do the pick swap since he doesn't seem to care if we pick 10th or 25th. That does seem like an overpay for a guard that we probably won't resign though.

In my opinion we should target Dudley, Teletovic, or Ingles though. We have Tyler Johnson developing as a shooting guard already. Judging from our history we'll probably just contract Dorell Wright, Caron Butler (who wants to be moved), or Michael Beasley and pretend the problem is solved.

And, yes, Spo loves playing vets. Haslem and Stoudemire will play unless they get hurt, social security checks be damned. To be fair, though, STAT has been decent lately (especially setting picks) and Haslem is unique. When our team is absolutely crap, we put in Haslem and sometimes he can bring us back from the brink.

[Tfence92]

Nobody in their right mind is going to spend that amount of money on a second round pick and the likes of Josh Richardson who I don't like to begin with. That's the point. The pick swap is so far out that it's hard to justify that expenditure. The value here is based upon crossed fingers and nothing more.

Isn't that what most trades like this would be? You're trading away play
ers now for a chance to get better ones in the coming year.

Please find me a trade where you're going to get something better for an expiring under sized 2 guard and a 27 year old 5 that has been buried on a bench for two seasons; not to mention he is also expiring, albeit with a $3M QO next year.

No. In most deals you do not light 4 million dollars on fire for Josh Richardson, a 2nd round pick 2 years out, and a maybe pick swap 3 years out.

I hope I'm wrong, but these guys just don't have that much value dude....

[skones]

Isn't that what most trades like this would be? You're trading away play
ers now for a chance to get better ones in the coming year.

Please find me a trade where you're going to get something better for an expiring under sized 2 guard and a 27 year old 5 that has been buried on a bench for two seasons; not to mention he is also expiring, albeit with a $3M QO next year.

No. In most deals you do not light 4 million dollars on fire for Josh Richardson, a 2nd round pick 2 years out, and a maybe pick swap 3 years out.

I hope I'm wrong, but these guys just don't have that much value dude....

I just don't know what you're not understanding. This is about money.

[Tfence92]

No. In most deals you do not light 4 million dollars on fire for Josh Richardson, a 2nd round pick 2 years out, and a maybe pick swap 3 years out.

I hope I'm wrong, but these guys just don't have that much value dude....

I just don't know what you're not understanding. This is about money.

You act as tho you have to pay it lol.

You have to give something to get something, and here they get picks and a young guy for money.

[skones]

I hope I'm wrong, but these guys just don't have that much value dude....

I just don't know what you're not understanding. This is about money.

You act as tho you have to pay it lol.

You have to give something to get something, and here they get picks and a young guy for money.

You realize money is an important factor when making proposals correct? These are business decisions, and this "prospect" you want us to gamble on is already 22 years old. I realize you haev to give something to get something. I just don't think we're getting anything and we're giving up a guy who's been a knock down 3 point shooter all season in a league that's dependent on floor spacers. I think there are flat out better deals out there.

[Tfence92]

I just don't know what you're not understanding. This is about money.

You act as tho you have to pay it lol.

You have to give something to get something, and here they get picks and a young guy for money.

You realize money is an important factor when making proposals correct? These are business decisions, and this "prospect" you want us to gamble on is already 22 years old. I realize you haev to give something to get something. I just don't think we're getting anything and we're giving up a guy who's been a knock down 3 point shooter all season in a league that's dependent on floor spacers. I think there are flat out better deals out there.

Conveniently leave out that Richardson is a rookie and that Bayless is a FA and was just under 35% from 3 coming into this year.

Obviously money is a factor, but you're essentially getting two second picks and and the potential to move up multiple picks in the first. What more would you be getting for $4M in today's NBA?

[skones]

You act as tho you have to pay it lol.

You have to give something to get something, and here they get picks and a young guy for money.

You realize money is an important factor when making proposals correct? These are business decisions, and this "prospect" you want us to gamble on is already 22 years old. I realize you haev to give something to get something. I just don't think we're getting anything and we're giving up a guy who's been a knock down 3 point shooter all season in a league that's dependent on floor spacers. I think there are flat out better deals out there.

Conveniently leave out that Richardson is a rookie and that Bayless is a FA and was just under 35% from 3 coming into this year.

Obviously money is a factor, but you're essentially getting two second picks and and the potential to move up multiple picks in the first. What more would you be getting for $4M in today's NBA?

Richardson, at 22 years old, has shown nothing in this league. The way you value a second round pick on your team is not equal to the way other teams around the league value your second round pick. He doesn't have value. That's the reality of it. He's not a guy worth a productive player, and then when you start pushing a second round pick all the way out to 2018, and a pick swap being EVEN further in 2019, thus highly circumstantial, you're not giving up anything. What you've done is taken three elements that are traditionally used as minor sweetner pieces in deals and claim that together they have value. Trades don't work in this league when you offer up 5 pennies for a nickel.

There are better ways to spend 4 million than on a player who may not even stick in the league and a second rounder more than two years out.