2015-16 UW Badger Basketball Discussion Thread

[Kerb Hohl]

We'll see what the tough schedule coming up after this winnable 3 game stretch brings, but here is what impresses me:

He's starting to win with
-A non-elite defensive unit
-A PG that can hit shots but we've found out cannot be the focal point of an offense consistently.
-A very good PF that messed up his shot
-An interior player that hasn't developed his outside jumper and has a 5-inch vertical (very solid player, though)
-Nobody else that can hit a 3
-He has now introduced his version of Kevin Gullikson into the rotation.

Long story short, they're beating good teams with not much talent. I do like to see that.

Also agree that none of the other options are sexy. Bennett, maybe, but other than that, Jacobsen might have the same excitement factor as Gard. Every other candidate like Archie Miller or Marshall is not looking to go to UW. It's not a destination job, and that's fine.

[Mags FTW]

I'm fine sticking with Gard unless they can get someone like Bennett or Marshall.

[trwi7]

I guess I don't see the appeal of Marshall. What am I missing? Bennett isn't very exciting either tbh. The only reason we would be looking at him are his Wisconsin ties.

[Kerb Hohl]

I guess I don't see the appeal of Marshall. What am I missing? Bennett isn't very exciting either tbh. The only reason we would be looking at him are his Wisconsin ties.

Marshall has taken a mid-major to a final four and perennial top 15 ranking for starters...He was a good coach at Winthrop as well. One of the Koch brothers is paying his contract at Wichita State as he waits for some blueblood to come calling - otherwise he'd have already made an intermediate hop to a power 5 conference.

Bennett is basically Gard with a better national profile/prestige. It's not easy to win in the ACC with a generally stacked conference, and he took a middling team to the top immediately. Gard plays basically the exact same style, so Bennett doesn't excite me that much, but I'd take him if he wanted to come (I don't think he'll want to).

[trwi7]

I guess I don't see the appeal of Marshall. What am I missing? Bennett isn't very exciting either tbh. The only reason we would be looking at him are his Wisconsin ties.

Marshall has taken a mid-major to a final four and perennial top 15 ranking for starters...He was a good coach at Winthrop as well. One of the Koch brothers is paying his contract at Wichita State as he waits for some blueblood to come calling - otherwise he'd have already made an intermediate hop to a power 5 conference.

Bennett is basically Gard with a better national profile/prestige. It's not easy to win in the ACC with a generally stacked conference, and he took a middling team to the top immediately. Gard plays basically the exact same style, so Bennett doesn't excite me that much, but I'd take him if he wanted to come (I don't think he'll want to).

I guess I just don't see it with Marshall. Yeah, he went to the Final Four but look at who he beat to get there. 8 seed, probably one of the worst 1 seeds ever in Gonzaga that played 3 ranked teams all year and lost to 2 of them, a 13 seed and an admittedly impressive win against Ohio State. Hardly a murderers row of competition.

He just doesn't excite me at all.

[Kerb Hohl]

I guess I don't see the appeal of Marshall. What am I missing? Bennett isn't very exciting either tbh. The only reason we would be looking at him are his Wisconsin ties.

Marshall has taken a mid-major to a final four and perennial top 15 ranking for starters...He was a good coach at Winthrop as well. One of the Koch brothers is paying his contract at Wichita State as he waits for some blueblood to come calling - otherwise he'd have already made an intermediate hop to a power 5 conference.

Bennett is basically Gard with a better national profile/prestige. It's not easy to win in the ACC with a generally stacked conference, and he took a middling team to the top immediately. Gard plays basically the exact same style, so Bennett doesn't excite me that much, but I'd take him if he wanted to come (I don't think he'll want to).

I guess I just don't see it with Marshall. Yeah, he went to the Final Four but look at who he beat to get there. 8 seed, probably one of the worst 1 seeds ever in Gonzaga that played 3 ranked teams all year and lost to 2 of them, a 13 seed and an admittedly impressive win against Ohio State. Hardly a murderers row of competition.

He just doesn't excite me at all.

If a coach won his conference 10 out of 18 years, took 2nd 5 of the remaining 8, and had 2 rebuilding years when he took over Wichita State as the only poor years...that would be pretty good, right?

No coach should be hired based on some fluky tournament performances (Groce at Illinois says hello) but Marshall has turned Wichita State into a dominant team. What else can a guy do?

If you actually want to dig into the tournament results, they lost by 2 to Kentucky (when they were an 8 seed but probably a top 5 team) when they went on to be national runner-up and then got a hilariously low seed to be matched up with Kansas in St. Louis and once again nearly beat them. Those were probably 2 of the top 5 teams in the country and they had to duke it out in the 2nd round.

I watched Wichita State play both Kentucky and Kansas in the last 2 tournaments. I'm generally one that believes that the NCAA seeds for exciting matchups or to knock the little guy out every once in awhile. In both cases, WSU looked every bit like a top 10 team that somehow got a top 10 team matchup in an early round.

Wichita State got a raw deal with 8 seeded Kentucky that everyone knew was absolutely stacked and somehow got a 7 seed (they were a top 5 team in the nation in KenPom and other rankings) and were faced with another top 5 team (Kansas). Other than Wisconsin/Kentucky, that was probably the best game of the tournament. Wichita State played basically even with Kansas.

EDIT: I'm an idiot. They beat Kansas and lost to a very good Notre Dame team who could not miss.

[Diggr14]

Koenig almost never shows up versus top 25 teams. The more athletic the opposing guard, the more he shrinks away in games.

I mean, he dropped like 28 vs MSU a week or so back didn't he? Played great in both tournament runs, especially last year. Sinking clutch FTs and shots throughout. Yea he's been a huge disappointment this year but it seems pretty off base to say this.

Despite that 28.. He is at 37% FG and 35% 3pt in conference play. He made some nice 3's in the NCAA, but you'd expect your starting PG to do that. I don't think he was a reason we made any of our deep runs. I hope his play picks up, but he does shrink away from big games (especially this season) because he is now a focal point of our offense. He has been disappointing, I expected a much better/efficient performance out of him this season. He still has 10 conference games to prove me wrong, and I hope he does.

[Kerb Hohl]

He's not "shrinking away," he's just not getting wide open looks due to going from 4 other 3-point shooters on the floor last year to 0 this year. He's still a good shooter.

[DingleJerry]

Koenig almost never shows up versus top 25 teams. The more athletic the opposing guard, the more he shrinks away in games.

I mean, he dropped like 28 vs MSU a week or so back didn't he? Played great in both tournament runs, especially last year. Sinking clutch FTs and shots throughout. Yea he's been a huge disappointment this year but it seems pretty off base to say this.

Despite that 28.. He is at 37% FG and 35% 3pt in conference play. He made some nice 3's in the NCAA, but you'd expect your starting PG to do that. I don't think he was a reason we made any of our deep runs. I hope his play picks up, but he does shrink away from big games (especially this season) because he is now a focal point of our offense. He has been disappointing, I expected a much better/efficient performance out of him this season. He still has 10 conference games to prove me wrong, and I hope he does.

I guess you didn't watch the games too close last year. On a 6 deep team, the starting PG was not a factor in the run to the championship game, ok. How quick people are to forget, hate on. I'm sure he didn't score a ton of points or anything in most games, but that's not what the PG on that team needed to do, the guy rarely turned the ball over and had to play a ton of minutes because there was no backup until TJ came back. Might have even had poor shooting numbers too, slight skewed by being the guy to force end of clock contested bad shots. Remember how reliant they were on the Frank/Bronson pick and pop as the catalyst of the offense in crunch time? It all starts with his decisions off that play. It was their go to play down the stretch of games. Or think of the B1G Championship game vs MSU, something like 20/9 with two clutch FTs with no time left to tie the game to go into OT.

Of course he's been a disappointment this year, but to specify it to top 25 teams or big games which implies it's a lack of clutch type thing doesn't make sense. Especially when two games ago vs a top 25 team he put up 28 pts. Many on here long for that true PG type rather than the shoot first guy, and when you have one you complain he isn't more. Most fans probably thought he'd take the leap from a pass first PG that facilitates the offense to his teammates to the Jordan Taylor type scorer and he didn't do it. Maybe he's just the true PG facilitator type and that's it, but this year's team has only two other good players and no other 3pt shooters so there is not much that can be done and it seems he doesn't have it in him to be take over scorer. Just a spot up shooter and facilitator, doesn't mean he's some scared kid or that he sucks. He was just the starting PG on a team with a 9 pt lead with 12 mins left in the championship game.

[Diggr14]

I mean, he dropped like 28 vs MSU a week or so back didn't he? Played great in both tournament runs, especially last year. Sinking clutch FTs and shots throughout. Yea he's been a huge disappointment this year but it seems pretty off base to say this.

Despite that 28.. He is at 37% FG and 35% 3pt in conference play. He made some nice 3's in the NCAA, but you'd expect your starting PG to do that. I don't think he was a reason we made any of our deep runs. I hope his play picks up, but he does shrink away from big games (especially this season) because he is now a focal point of our offense. He has been disappointing, I expected a much better/efficient performance out of him this season. He still has 10 conference games to prove me wrong, and I hope he does.

I guess you didn't watch the games too close last year. On a 6 deep team, the starting PG was not a factor in the run to the championship game, ok. How quick people are to forget, hate on. I'm sure he didn't score a ton of points or anything in most games, but that's not what the PG on that team needed to do, the guy rarely turned the ball over and had to play a ton of minutes because there was no backup until TJ came back. Might have even had poor shooting numbers too, slight skewed by being the guy to force end of clock contested bad shots. Remember how reliant they were on the Frank/Bronson pick and pop as the catalyst of the offense in crunch time? It all starts with his decisions off that play. It was their go to play down the stretch of games. Or think of the B1G Championship game vs MSU, something like 20/9 with two clutch FTs with no time left to tie the game to go into OT.

Of course he's been a disappointment this year, but to specify it to top 25 teams or big games which implies it's a lack of clutch type thing doesn't make sense. Especially when two games ago vs a top 25 team he put up 28 pts. Many on here long for that true PG type rather than the shoot first guy, and when you have one you complain he isn't more. Most fans probably thought he'd take the leap from a pass first PG that facilitates the offense to his teammates to the Jordan Taylor type scorer and he didn't do it. Maybe he's just the true PG facilitator type and that's it, but this year's team has only two other good players and no other 3pt shooters so there is not much that can be done and it seems he doesn't have it in him to be take over scorer. Just a spot up shooter and facilitator, doesn't mean he's some scared kid or that he sucks. He was just the starting PG on a team with a 9 pt lead with 12 mins left in the championship game.

On a 6-7 person team, everyone is a significant cog. It is significantly easier to score as a guard when you have Sam Dekker, Nigel Hayes, and Frank Kaminsky as your front court. On top of that every single other player had the green light to shoot the 3 and was pretty good at it. If there was ever an optimum team for a guard to be on and score, it was that one. Fast forward to this year, I showed his stats. Outside of one game in conference he has shrunk away. He's been below average. For this team to make the NCAAs we will need him to start showing up and stop having poor shooting games.

[DingleJerry]

Despite that 28.. He is at 37% FG and 35% 3pt in conference play. He made some nice 3's in the NCAA, but you'd expect your starting PG to do that. I don't think he was a reason we made any of our deep runs. I hope his play picks up, but he does shrink away from big games (especially this season) because he is now a focal point of our offense. He has been disappointing, I expected a much better/efficient performance out of him this season. He still has 10 conference games to prove me wrong, and I hope he does.

I guess you didn't watch the games too close last year. On a 6 deep team, the starting PG was not a factor in the run to the championship game, ok. How quick people are to forget, hate on. I'm sure he didn't score a ton of points or anything in most games, but that's not what the PG on that team needed to do, the guy rarely turned the ball over and had to play a ton of minutes because there was no backup until TJ came back. Might have even had poor shooting numbers too, slight skewed by being the guy to force end of clock contested bad shots. Remember how reliant they were on the Frank/Bronson pick and pop as the catalyst of the offense in crunch time? It all starts with his decisions off that play. It was their go to play down the stretch of games. Or think of the B1G Championship game vs MSU, something like 20/9 with two clutch FTs with no time left to tie the game to go into OT.

Of course he's been a disappointment this year, but to specify it to top 25 teams or big games which implies it's a lack of clutch type thing doesn't make sense. Especially when two games ago vs a top 25 team he put up 28 pts. Many on here long for that true PG type rather than the shoot first guy, and when you have one you complain he isn't more. Most fans probably thought he'd take the leap from a pass first PG that facilitates the offense to his teammates to the Jordan Taylor type scorer and he didn't do it. Maybe he's just the true PG facilitator type and that's it, but this year's team has only two other good players and no other 3pt shooters so there is not much that can be done and it seems he doesn't have it in him to be take over scorer. Just a spot up shooter and facilitator, doesn't mean he's some scared kid or that he sucks. He was just the starting PG on a team with a 9 pt lead with 12 mins left in the championship game.

On a 6-7 person team, everyone is a significant cog. It is significantly easier to score as a guard when you have Sam Dekker, Nigel Hayes, and Frank Kaminsky as your front court. On top of that every single other player had the green light to shoot the 3 and was pretty good at it. If there was ever an optimum team for a guard to be on and score, it was that one. Fast forward to this year, I showed his stats. Outside of one game in conference he has shrunk away. He's been below average. For this team to make the NCAAs we will need him to start showing up and stop having poor shooting games.

I'm sorry, are you really saying the PG on a team that plays one of the slowest paces and has scorers/shooters at every other position (including the POY and another top 20 nba pick) should be scoring a bunch himself? Isn't this exactly what everyone complains about with MCW. He made open 3s last year all the time and didn't force the action and do dumb stuff, just like we wanted. We all thought he'd take the next step and hasn't. Of course he's been disappointing. What I and one or two others who commented on was your implication in that it's in "big games" which implies that he's a choker, shrinks away, is scared, or mentally weak which is kind of insulting to the kid. It's kind of an ESPN talking head take where everything is about some big psychological thing rather than just the game. It turns out he's not quite quick to get his own shots and now that the rest of the team isn't good he doesn't get wide open 3s anymore. It's not because he's some mentally weak kid.

[Kerb Hohl]

Koenig has hit some massive shots this season to tie games up or win (see Maryland and MSU games. Also singlehandedly kept them in the stupid Western Illinois game with big shots). Unfortunately, there have been a few games where he's been forced to have to create all of their offense the majority of times down the court, and he hasn't developed that part of his game yet - hence, the worse stats.

[Kerb Hohl]

On a 6-7 person team, everyone is a significant cog. It is significantly easier to score as a guard when you have Sam Dekker, Nigel Hayes, and Frank Kaminsky as your front court. On top of that every single other player had the green light to shoot the 3 and was pretty good at it. If there was ever an optimum team for a guard to be on and score, it was that one. Fast forward to this year, I showed his stats. Outside of one game in conference he has shrunk away. He's been below average. For this team to make the NCAAs we will need him to start showing up and stop having poor shooting games.

Honest question for you. How mentally weak is Nigel Hayes? His 2p% has dropped 12% from last year and his 3p% has dropped 10%. What a mentally weak player, right?

[tski1972]

On a 6-7 person team, everyone is a significant cog. It is significantly easier to score as a guard when you have Sam Dekker, Nigel Hayes, and Frank Kaminsky as your front court. On top of that every single other player had the green light to shoot the 3 and was pretty good at it. If there was ever an optimum team for a guard to be on and score, it was that one. Fast forward to this year, I showed his stats. Outside of one game in conference he has shrunk away. He's been below average. For this team to make the NCAAs we will need him to start showing up and stop having poor shooting games.

Honest question for you. How mentally weak is Nigel Hayes? His 2p% has dropped 12% from last year and his 3p% has dropped 10%. What a mentally weak player, right?

Nigel screwed up his shooting form. Bronson has not.

[Mags FTW]

Can someone in the know tell us who screwed up the whole Uthoff thing?

[Kerb Hohl]

On a 6-7 person team, everyone is a significant cog. It is significantly easier to score as a guard when you have Sam Dekker, Nigel Hayes, and Frank Kaminsky as your front court. On top of that every single other player had the green light to shoot the 3 and was pretty good at it. If there was ever an optimum team for a guard to be on and score, it was that one. Fast forward to this year, I showed his stats. Outside of one game in conference he has shrunk away. He's been below average. For this team to make the NCAAs we will need him to start showing up and stop having poor shooting games.

Honest question for you. How mentally weak is Nigel Hayes? His 2p% has dropped 12% from last year and his 3p% has dropped 10%. What a mentally weak player, right?

Nigel screwed up his shooting form. Bronson has not.

Sure, I know he screwed up his shooting form. He also is the focal point of the offense and therefore misses a lot more shots.

Koenig has looked EXACTLY the same as last year to me in terms of shooting. When he has an open 3 (minus the last game he just played where something was wrong), he hits it. What the hell games are you guys watching?

He's missing more shots than usual because he is shooting a lot more contested shots. He is not good at getting to the basket or creating his own shot.

Hell, after the worst game of his career, his percentages are barely worse than last year's. 2% across the board. I think that's pretty reasonable given that the guy is drawing the best defender and shooting a lot of shots with a hand in his face, given that he's the only 3 point shooter they have.

[Kerb Hohl]

Can someone in the know tell us who screwed up the whole Uthoff thing?

I think it was Uthoff himself. I don't remember completely, but I think he wanted to go to Iowa all along. He got to Madison, was somewhat buried, and a spot opened at Iowa...he got homesick or something to that extent, right?

The whole controversy was over Bo supposedly restricting where he could transfer (which most other coaches will do) but Uthoff made it into a national story.

[tski1972]

when you stand and dribble the ball for half the shot clock, you create your own bad shot. thats what Koening is doing this year.

[Kerb Hohl]

when you stand and dribble the ball for half the shot clock, you create your own bad shot. thats what Koening is doing this year.

Sure. That's most of his problem.

Here's part of the other problem: Where are you going to pass the ball? Happ needs to catch it within 2 feet of the basket to score. Showalter is relatively useless on offense. He hits an open 3 every once in a while and once or twice/game he will make an athletic drive and score. Hayes of course is very good when he gets an ISO. Everyone else is completely useless on offense.

In past years, Jackson, Taylor, Hughes, Taylor, etc. all would do the same thing. The difference is that those guys were better at getting to the basket. They'd get there and draw a foul or finish late in the shot clock. Koenig has been decent/OK at hitting stepback shots/3s at the end of the shot clock but he has not gotten to the basket like the others.

All of that said, his problem is not shooting or mental issues of showing up for the games as some posters have suggested. He just has not developed or may never develop a full ability to create when he is literally the only offensive option aside from handing the ball to Hayes for a 1 on 1 play.

To add: Nobody else is useful on the perimeter since Hayes messed up his shot. As the shot clock drains, what is Koenig supposed to do? In the past, he'd come off a high screen. Kaminsky would step back for a 3. If Kaminsky wasn't there, he'd still just have 1 man on him and be able to drive or he could pull the 3 pointer if he had an opening. If that wasn't open, Gasser/Dekker/Jackson/whomever would be sitting on the 3 point line for a shot as he drove.

This year? He comes off the screen and both guys basically shove him 5 feet off the 3 point line because what is his other option? Give it to Showalter on the wing? The defense is dying for Koenig to do that. Oh, maybe he could give the ball to Aaron Moesch! That'll be an efficient pass! If he wants to drive off the screen, the entire lane is clogged. Why would a defense leave anyone on the perimeter on Charlie Thomas or Vitto Brown, for example?

[DingleJerry]

Can someone in the know tell us who screwed up the whole Uthoff thing?

I think it was Uthoff himself. I don't remember completely, but I think he wanted to go to Iowa all along. He got to Madison, was somewhat buried, and a spot opened at Iowa...he got homesick or something to that extent, right?

The whole controversy was over Bo supposedly restricting where he could transfer (which most other coaches will do) but Uthoff made it into a national story.

I understood kids at Iowa who he knew from his AAU were in his ear the whole time to leave UW and very likely some illegal contact from Iowa's coach. Yet, Bo is the bad guy in the situation for being upset that another team poached a player of his team, which is illegal.