PG: FJU Needs To Be Shut Down

[dakomish23]

This "Melo and KP are on different career arcs" is some of the laziest rationalization ever.

Melo makes the game easier for KP and is teaching him how to be an alpha in this game. You want KP to develop, you keep him around that as long as he can.

It's not that lazy but but the better discussion is how you want to build the team. I think we can all agree that Melo is a good teammate for KP but it is also generally agreed that Melo will be likely past his prime when KP is in his prime and, so, if you can net good assets for Melo (with his consent) it might be worth doing even if he is a good influence on KP and rebuild properly.

Only if you think there is only one way to "properly" rebuild

I love the "proper"' or "right way" description that gets tied to building through the draft. It's a load of horse ****.

If it was that f'n simple, 25 teams would be tanking right now to get in the lottery. Guaranteed to strike gold in the draft, right?

Ask CHA how's that worked out for them. Isn't it like 7 top 5 picks in 10 years? Only time they've sniffed the playoffs is when they trade for players or signed a big name FA.

Right way. SMFH

[GONYK]

Melo has been a tough fighter and he's a generally happy guy. And yeah he likes New York. There's a limit to all that lol. I think he'd take Boston 90% likely. This is not how he wants to finish his career. He hasn't lost sight of the playoffs and winning, but the Knicks have.

Lots of divorces look like happy marriages publicly. I think he'd take an out to a good club. Any other perspective is the New York bubble. His no trade was not to stay a Knick forever, it was to control where he goes.

Lol why in the world would he go to boston? He has a NTC and can easily just dictate his way to the best situation for him (Clippers are not a bad situation and have much more top shelf talent than Boston).

What if his decision is staying or going to Boston? The Knicks are a problematic status quo right now to a 31 year old player who wants to win.

Then he stays in NY. No-brainer.

He's not leaving the #1 market to go to #11 so he can play on the #8 seed instead of #11

[tapshotta]

Draymond Green has so much to do with that. A point forward/point center is just so knew the NBA. It opens up so much on offense. I watched that game vs the knicks on Sunday and he is the lynch pin of that team. Defending, rebounding, starting fast breaks, making great decisions and passes at the top of the key make them so dangerous.

I watch nearly every single warriors game for the past few seasons including going to 10+ games. What your saying about dray is true to an extent but that is usually in transition. They run a lot of beautiful sets that involve misdirections with beautiful spacing and back cutting etc. Nearly after every timeout they come out and get an easy bucket off a drawn up play. Its literally night and day difference between the Mark Jackson regime and Steve Kerr.

However, some of these posters are missing that Jackson actually did help that team tremendously on the defensive end. But that doesnt make up for the level of overall head coaching incompetence that is Mark Jackson.

So is it Steve Kerr or Luke Walton. Or both. Or neither. ????

Steve Kerr's unlikely path from front office to front of a microphone to front of a bench resulted in a chip year one. If he never coached this year, the team had a better record and, they won another chip, who deserves the majority in of the accolades??

Phil is mentioned in the same breath as MJ, Pop as the big fundamental. Mr Jackson inherited his great squads (I'm sure he had some input), Pop has undoubtedly had a hand in building his. Both are recognized as being superior coaches. All time greats.

Does Steve Kerr's who walked into a team that has been together 3+ years, deserve the Phil Jackson level of respect in a one year vacuum? Based on what I've seen the team do without him, I do not believe so. I do concede that he is a basketball genius but, I'm not convinced he's an all time great.

Phil was an all-time great communicator, Pop is an all-time great organizational mastermind, is Steve an all-time great tactician because that's all he brought to this situation as I can see it from my limited vantage point.

[mpharris36]

This "Melo and KP are on different career arcs" is some of the laziest rationalization ever.

Melo makes the game easier for KP and is teaching him how to be an alpha in this game. You want KP to develop, you keep him around that as long as he can.

Correct, however you have to play the Melo "health" game as well. I want to see this play out as long as possible too but if a stepping on a refs foot creates a chain reaction of Melo's knees acting up again.

You have to at least consider and keep in the back of your head that at some point during his contract he might not be as valuable in terms of his production.

Melo has a great impact to KP. I love Melo and think he has been great in NY, just never given the right supporting cast. But a young dynamic PG in the draft or someone like Schroder would also make KP's life easier as well and wouldn't stunt his growth.

The idea that losing Melo would stunt KP's growth would only be depending on if you didn't use the young players/picks/available cap space correctly to put players around KP to help him.

Other teams are already playing that game. Thinking that you'll be trading Melo for youth and picks is a bit of a pipe dream at this point, IMO.

If we make a Melo trade, it will be a very underwhelming one to a contender. The prospect of low picks, a decent player, and maybe an expiring doesn't really move the meter for me.

Other teams are playing that game. But they are also playing that game with there current rosters as well. For example the clippers and CP3. How long is he going to be as dominant. Do you go all in on a better fit alongside DJ maybe with Melo?

I think as long as you get a 2nd or 3rd team involved you have a little more leverage to get a less underwhelming offer.

Ansd if low picks, expirings, and mayber a decent player is the best package you hold Melo until he widens his teams he will go too. The good thing is there isn't a rush at the moment.

We have less leverage in 2-3 years at 33 yrs old if we are still a stagnant team. At least worth putting feelers out there at the deadline to see what teams are desperate to make a run.

[dakomish23]

I don't disagree that coaching can only do so much without talent. But when you are able to take talented players and unlock their potential with great offensive sets, you deserve credit. Their play book is constant motion. When was the last time you saw them run an ISO post play during crunch time in the 4th? Let alone 5x in a row?

because they don't have iso post players?

why would you run a play that doesn't suit your best players skill set?

Melo is a ISO post player. He is very effective there. So we tend to go to that because we don't have "playmakers" to run the P&R.

Curry, Klay, and Draymond work so well in space there would be no point in bogging them down in the post. They want you to have to guard a lot of space.

Melo for example in the triple threat position drawing doubles is where his $$$ is made.

Kerr is clearly a far better coach than Jackson. But his motion offense works so well because he has the personnel to use it. Kerr lets them play and doesn't over complicate things. Get out and run. And even in the half court, keep moving.

They can go to Barnes or Green in the post. They don't because that's settling for one shot. What they run now, opens the door for a shot from any of the 5 players.

Jose and RoLo both have had very good years playing in pick and roll systems. And Melo played off the ball on the wing when we ran pick and roll in 12-13 and killed it.

We need to open this offense up. If DFish can't do it, then find someone who can

[NY2TheBay]

Steve Kerr's unlikely path from front office to front of a microphone to front of a bench resulted in a chip year one. If he never coached this year, the team had a better record and, they won another chip, who deserves the majority in of the accolades??

Phil is mentioned in the same breath as MJ, Pop as the big fundamental. Mr Jackson inherited his great squads (I'm sure he had some input), Pop has undoubtedly had a hand in building his. Both are recognized as being superior coaches. All time greats.

Does Steve Kerr's who walked into a team that has been together 3+ years, deserve the Phil Jackson level of respect in a one year vacuum? Based on what I've seen the team do without him, I do not believe so. I do concede that he is a basketball genius but, I'm not convinced he's an all time great.

Phil was an all-time great communicator, Pop is an all-time great organizational mastermind, is Steve an all-time great tactician because that's all he brought to this situation as I can see it from my limited vantage point.

Steve Kerr has been there at practices talking to Luke the entire time. Luke was working with Steve very closely throughout. However, Luke is very talented as well.

He stays up late at night drawing up plays and practices doing it under a time restriction. Very dedicated. Kobe even said that he knew Luke would be a very good coach from his time spent with the lakers.

Luke's dad Bill Walton used to write John Wooden quotes on his lunch bag when he was a kid. Luke deserves some credit here, he has talent but nowhere near the experience level of Kerr. Luke wont be an assistant very much longer but I would warn teams not to just through the money at him blindly because after all he is working with a great, great team.

No need to compare either of these guys to Phil or Pop in a vacuum or not. They have a lot of work to do to even be worth the breath.

[Mr_Perfect]

Fisher needs to be fired at the end of a season.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: This team would be a playoff team if it wasn't for Derek Fisher. He ruined this team.

Yes, our guards suck, but Fisher is the worst of the worst. He couldn't make lemons with lemonade. When this team gets some great talent he will hold them back big time. I have no doubt he can make the playoffs with great talent but plenty of terrible coaches have made the playoffs. Look at Woodson and D'Antoni, for example.

We're not making the playoffs as is. We need to start acting like that and making moves for next season and beyond. Phil needs to wake up and start shaping the roster for next year and beyond.

[GONYK]

Correct, however you have to play the Melo "health" game as well. I want to see this play out as long as possible too but if a stepping on a refs foot creates a chain reaction of Melo's knees acting up again.

You have to at least consider and keep in the back of your head that at some point during his contract he might not be as valuable in terms of his production.

Melo has a great impact to KP. I love Melo and think he has been great in NY, just never given the right supporting cast. But a young dynamic PG in the draft or someone like Schroder would also make KP's life easier as well and wouldn't stunt his growth.

The idea that losing Melo would stunt KP's growth would only be depending on if you didn't use the young players/picks/available cap space correctly to put players around KP to help him.

Other teams are already playing that game. Thinking that you'll be trading Melo for youth and picks is a bit of a pipe dream at this point, IMO.

If we make a Melo trade, it will be a very underwhelming one to a contender. The prospect of low picks, a decent player, and maybe an expiring doesn't really move the meter for me.

Other teams are playing that game. But they are also playing that game with there current rosters as well. For example the clippers and CP3. How long is he going to be as dominant. Do you go all in on a better fit alongside DJ maybe with Melo?

I think as long as you get a 2nd or 3rd team involved you have a little more leverage to get a less underwhelming offer.

Ansd if low picks, expirings, and mayber a decent player is the best package you hold Melo until he widens his teams he will go too. The good thing is there isn't a rush at the moment.

We have less leverage in 2-3 years at 33 yrs old if we are still a stagnant team. At least worth putting feelers out there at the deadline to see what teams are desperate to make a run.

Even in that scenario though, I doubt the Clips are willing to trade Blake for either Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. If their latitude of acceptance is that wide, then sure, listen to the offer.

I, personally, would be very shocked.

I can't see any deals for Melo that would make sense for all three parties unless someone was getting the shaft.

[Yodi2007]

Players win though. If you put prime shaq and kobe vs the warriors they would beat the warriors because the warrriors would have no one to stop shaq down low.

So the triangle would win but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what the coach or triangle is. If you have someone as dominant as Shaq you have the best chance of winning. Now coaching obviously can and does help. But all the great coaches need great players.

Shaq and Kobe really wouldn't have won against the outside shooting of GSW! The game could have been competitive though but in a 7 game series i think GSW would have won 4-2!

[nykfan42]

This was a bad loss. We played horrible offensively.

[tapshotta]

Steve Kerr's unlikely path from front office to front of a microphone to front of a bench resulted in a chip year one. If he never coached this year, the team had a better record and, they won another chip, who deserves the majority in of the accolades??

Phil is mentioned in the same breath as MJ, Pop as the big fundamental. Mr Jackson inherited his great squads (I'm sure he had some input), Pop has undoubtedly had a hand in building his. Both are recognized as being superior coaches. All time greats.

Does Steve Kerr's who walked into a team that has been together 3+ years, deserve the Phil Jackson level of respect in a one year vacuum? Based on what I've seen the team do without him, I do not believe so. I do concede that he is a basketball genius but, I'm not convinced he's an all time great.

Phil was an all-time great communicator, Pop is an all-time great organizational mastermind, is Steve an all-time great tactician because that's all he brought to this situation as I can see it from my limited vantage point.

Steve Kerr has been there at practices talking to Luke the entire time. Luke was working with Steve very closely throughout. However, Luke is very talented as well.

He stays up late at night drawing up plays and practices doing it under a time restriction. Very dedicated. Kobe even said that he knew Luke would be a very good coach from his time spent with the lakers.

Luke's dad Bill Walton used to write John Wooden quotes on his lunch bag when he was a kid. Luke deserves some credit here, he has talent but nowhere near the experience level of Kerr. Luke wont be an assistant very much longer but I would warn teams not to just through the money at him blindly because after all he is working with a great, great team.

No need to compare either of these guys to Phil or Pop in a vacuum or not. They have a lot of work to do to even be worth the breath.

I appreciate the response and respect the perspective. However the crux of the argument still remains:

Hypothetically, best record of all time + back 2 back rings = all time great team. There's no such thing as perfect therefore 50/50 even doesn't exist.

Is it more the player's development or the coaching that got them to this level?

If it's the players and Steve walked into a readymade team, it dims his super super bright star a little bit (not like he'd give a f). If it was the coaching that did it, Steve has solidified himself as a HOF coach even if he never won another afterwards, no???

[K_ick_God]

Lol why in the world would he go to boston? He has a NTC and can easily just dictate his way to the best situation for him (Clippers are not a bad situation and have much more top shelf talent than Boston).

What if his decision is staying or going to Boston? The Knicks are a problematic status quo right now to a 31 year old player who wants to win.

Then he stays in NY. No-brainer.

He's not leaving the #1 market to go to #11 so he can play on the #8 seed instead of #11

I understand your position but I don't agree. Boston is 4-8 and will play in the playoffs in a flat conference with a vulnerable top seed.

[Sark]

Let me start off by saying witnessing Derek Fisher live is a whole other level of embarrassment. Its one thing to watch him on TV when you can barely see the bench, but it's a whole other phenomenon when you have to suffer the agony of his laziness at MSG. This is the 6th year in a row I've had season tickets (back when posters on this board were called Abe & Paco), and seeing him refuse to get off the bench is sickening. This isn't Pop. This isn't Carlisle. This isn't even Spo. This is a 2nd year coach coming off the worst year in the history of our franchise and game in and game out his legs stay glued to the bench. He routinely gets up at the oddest times (after a Knick player shoots his first free throw) or when he's calling Sasha's name (go figure). It's bad enough to deal with a coach whose horrendous at play calling, and even worse to see one who truly thinks we have a 10-11 man rotation. But seeing Brad Stevens pacing up and down the court, calling out plays, pointing out screens, and actually trying to be strategic had me so disappointed in what we have to deal with in Fisher. This isn't the growing pains anymore. We're not figuring things out. We simply have a coach who isn't yet ready. I know our issues are heavily predicated in our lack of guards and overall play making ability. But when you have a coach like Fisher, who refuses to have the pulse of his team it's down right sad. From where I was sitting I saw a guy whose collecting his fat pay check wearing a sharp brown suit. Dont get this twisted. Fisher is nothing more then a made guy without an actual brain. Worst part is hell most likely never been on the hot seat as he actually should be.

This stuff is actually visible from TV, but I can imagine it's magnified while seeing it live. Fisher is really the worst coach I have ever seen, and it's not even close.

[ibraheim718]

Wait hasn't GSW been better defensively under Kerr? And wasn't it Kerr who started playing Green at the 5?

[TrueWarrior]

Love Gallo..... but this was exhibit A showing why he's not a PG.

Jerian with zeros across the board in 7 minutes, besides 1 foul. A team worst -17 in those minutes.

Most other rookies picked in the late 1st are riding the bench on their teams. It's okay not to be ready. Look at Delon Wright, picked right after Grant who's the same age. Grant is just not ready to play right now. In this system at least. He needs to be sent down or sat down, because it's getting bad.

If we aren't going to make a big splash for a guy like Holiday, Teague, or even a Tyreke/Knight/Collison... a move for another PG needs to made regardless. Trade for DJ Augustin, Mo Williams, Ramon Sessions, or Shelvin Mack. Sign a Wroten, Jimmer, Toure Murry, Lorenzo Brown, Bryce Cotton, Russ Smith. Somebody. Anybody. Even if they suck too, at least I get to watch a new face for a bit.

Sasha has actually turned the clock back of late, but that won't last. While AA still doesn't pass, or do anything besides post up. Team has the sh*ttiest guards ever. Bad enough where I actually miss the Marbury, Jamal, and Nate days . I mean prime Nate was basically a more erratic Isaiah Thomas and would easily be our best guard on the team right now.

Hope that jungle hashish is giving you some ideas Phil.

[MrProb]

Every one played like sh*t this game, from Melo to Fisher

[NY2TheBay]

I appreciate the response and respect the perspective. However the crux of the argument still remains:

Hypothetically, best record of all time + back 2 back rings = all time great team. There's no such thing as perfect therefore 50/50 even doesn't exist.

Is it more the player's development or the coaching that got them to this level?

If it's the players and Steve walked into a readymade team, it dims his super super bright star a little bit (not like he'd give a f). If it was the coaching that did it, Steve has solidified himself as a HOF coach even if he never won another afterwards, no???

Well, really was just shedding light on the walton/kerr scenario, I didnt address it all I suppose.

The team has HOF talent and players that have extremely high IQ. It is a perfect storm. Kerr came into a beautiful situation but he has implemented a GREAT system for them to be successful in.

Believe it or not but Mark Jackson laid the groundwork for this team defensively. He changed the mindset on that end. But thats really all he did, he was like a great defensive assistant at best.

The book is yet to be written on Steve Kerr but his knowledge and hybrid system of the triangle, pops motion offense and the uptempo of Nash's suns teams fits this personnel like a glove. Great players make coaches look great but the players cant reach their ceiling without being put into situations to be successful. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Dave4585]

AA dosent fit the system, triangle needs people who can pass not ones who do not pass


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[Red Vines]

Jerian with zeros across the board in 7 minutes, besides 1 foul. A team worst -17 in those minutes.

Come on he barely played and I don't think play with any of the starters--his unit was horrible, DWill was bricking threes and him and Seraphin were getting toasted in the paint. And Lance has been basically nonexistent. But Fish isolates him as the problem and takes him out. Kid has no chance the way he's being used.

[HarthorneWingo]

as frustrating as this stretch has been we are in our best position asset wise and cap wise in a LONG LONG TIME.

Lopez is a easily movable piece (for draft picks)
As much as AA has been playing like trash he is a moveable piece.
We have some young guys KP, Gallo, Grant, Willy Hernangomez

If we do eventually decide to mutually part ways with Melo there would be a large return coming back our way

After this year we have all our 1st round picks

While the road to a respectable team has had its ups and downs..this isn't a quick fix and isn't all doom and gloom in my opinion. We will go on a 4 or 5 game winning streak soon and people will be excited.

Honestly Melo and KP being banged up has destroyed all our momentum. And AA playing like dooky crap also hasn't helped but Melo and KP injuries have really brought there effectiveness and energy down a notch which is hurting us.

I'm still positive because the franchise is in a decent place for the future regardless of the results this year.

I would add Lance the "young guys" list. I hope you're right about Wily. Not sure he belongs on the list yet, tho.

I also don't know about this "large return" we would get for Melo. What do you envision that to be? I would just like to get a solid young talent and a bunch of draft picks.

I would add Lance and Dwill as assets as well. They would be pieces you could trade as well to a team needing to add a bench wing that can provide defense or scoring.

Willy was wildly considered one of those "late 1st" round pick value wise. He is a young big that has a good offensive game. That is valuable. He probably dropped a bit in the draft because he wasn't coming over at least until next year.

As for Melo's return. I am still not sure what the future holds with him. Obviously he makes our team competitive because he is our best player. But KP and his future are going in different directions. Unless we get a big time FA (durant level). Teague and Conley or whatever point guard I don't even think gets us over the Cavs/GSW/Spurs type hump so maybe the time is to accumulate assets instead of thinking we are 1 piece away (unless its a durant type player).

Something along the lines of a Melo, Blake, Celtics 3-way trade makes some sense too me. Clippers get a chance to win over the next couple years with CP3, Melo, and DJ. Send Blake to celtics to give them there star. Send back a couple unprotected 1st (nets picks) rounders and a young player or two from the celtics might make some sense.

Now that's a trade scenario that makes a lot of sense, assuming that Melo's priority is to compete for a championship during what's left of his prime years. So maybe we get back a bunch of those Celtics picks including the Nets pick of course, bring back David Lee little reunion and the Kristaps Porzingis Era begins. Really, the whole timing thing just didn't work out with Melo. Going to LA is probably the only other acceptable city to Lala anyhow.