ImageImage

Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

Moderators: yosemiteben, fatlever, JDR720, Diop, BigSlam

User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,086
And1: 14,844
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#81 » by fatlever » Thu Feb 4, 2016 8:48 pm

qiantom wrote:The only adjustment I would suggest regarding Kemba and Lin is to have Lin handle the ball more early in the game and early in the clock and have Kemba handle the ball more late in the game and late in the clock. We can take advantage of both players' strengths better this way.


I think that's a fair suggestion. When Lin and Kemba are on the floor together at the same time, Cliff should put the ball in Lin's hands more than he does, especially if Batum is off the floor. And Lin should get more minutes running the point solo than he does (but I suspect this will change in Lin's favor if we can ever get anyone healthy).

If I was running the offense (probably a good thing that I am not), I'd use Batum and Lin as much as possible to run the secondary half court offense if nothing else has worked in the first action, which is Kemba bringing ball up the floor and looking for a crease to the lane. Thrid action (if that late in the shot clock), would swing back to Kemba who is the best at creating something out of nothing late in the clock.
bws94
Head Coach
Posts: 6,993
And1: 1,222
Joined: Jan 08, 2014

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#82 » by bws94 » Thu Feb 4, 2016 8:53 pm

Lin was a backup in the pure sense of the word. Like an understudy that did the role his way and was effective. Lin's role on the team is to be a combo guard coming off the bench, finishing most games, sliding from SG to PG and facilitating from either position, expected to play in OT and provide energy. That's what he does. Kemba's is the starting PG and team's motor but also scorer and go-to guy in the clutch. They play together a lot, Lin sometimes relieves Kemba, they both blend in with Batum who also facilitates. In fact, Batum facilitates most.

That's the formula. I the coaches are trying to maximize the formula, not change anyone's roles. And I'm not for changing roles. Batum or Kemba can't go, Lin shows he can go and produce. When they are back, Lin slots back into his role from the bench. He still plays starters minutes. MKG can impact those minutes but looking at MKG, he and Lin complement each other a lot and should be on the floor together significant minutes. I think Cliff will recognize that.

I wish they could all stay together at least one more season and be reasonably healthy too. I'm not sure how realistic that is.
dznutzz
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,394
And1: 122
Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Location: santa ana

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#83 » by dznutzz » Thu Feb 4, 2016 8:57 pm

lin must be heavily drugged up seeing how he can play this effectively after that nasty ankle injury.

here's a vid of the jlin vs irving duel

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA12HwiMvjI[/youtube]
Image
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#84 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:08 pm

Lin to MKG. If you've got a big who rolls to the rim, Lin will find him. I think he loves creating and feeding his bigs more than he does scoring himself. He uses his credible scoring threat to create high percentage shots at the rim for his bigs with his courtvision and passing. He runs the team as an unselfish floor general PG with the ball in his hands and not just dribbling around looking to get himself open for his own shot (though he can score/draw fouls if he needs to keep the defense honest).

Image
razsan
Ballboy
Posts: 38
And1: 6
Joined: Jul 15, 2015
     

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#85 » by razsan » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:26 pm

fatlever wrote:Not to take away anything from Lin's amazing game, but just thought we should put it in perspective.

Kemba Walker has had 13 games in his Hornets career with 24+ points and 8+ assists in the same game. 5 of those 13 he did on less FGA than Lin had last night. In all 13 he had less than 5 turnovers. 8 of the 13 resulted in wins.

Lin was fantastic last night. Kemba is also fantastic at times. Lets enjoy the fact that this team has two really good point guards.

Mo Williams even had two such fantastic games last year in his limited time as starting pg.

http://bkref.com/tiny/8VJos


Fat...not questioning how good Kemba is but I found 0 games where Kemba had 24 and 8 with less than 13 shots
1 with only 13. All others were higher, most over 20 FGA. Where are you getting these numbers?
Roy Tarpley
Veteran
Posts: 2,888
And1: 987
Joined: Jul 06, 2015
     

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#86 » by Roy Tarpley » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:26 pm

I enjoy watching Kemba and Lin for different reasons. Kemba, when he's hot, is an offensive beast who can carry the team on his back, with step back jumpshots and drives to the basket. Very Iverson-esque.

This being said, I enjoy Lin's style of play more. I grew up watching Magic and the Showtime Lakers and I got spoiled with fastbreak basketball -- a high tempo offense that always pushed the pace, emphasized outlet passes, teamwork, and Magic's no look passes. The Cavs game reminded me of Showtime. There were fastbreaks, a no-look pass by Lin to Cody, some showtime passing from Lin to MKG, etc.

In the Kemba offense, I feel like there are no fastbreaks, and Kemba almost deliberately slows the pace down -- from taking a tortured amount of time to inbound the ball after a basket, walking the ball up to halfcourt, leaving only 10 seconds on the shot clock before initiating the offense, and then looking to score first instead of creating for his teammates. This leads to his teammates just watching from the corners.

I'm not saying anything about who starts or who initiates the offense first. I'm just saying I enjoy Lin's style of play more - ugly turnovers and all. That's it.
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#87 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:30 pm

renmei wrote:I won't lie, I was not expecting Lin to have a good game tonight cus of his gimpy ankle. Good thing I was wrong. If the Cavs really slept on Lin and gave him that much room to play with.. guess they have really short memories. A healthy Lin has burned the Cavs in the past, got a triple double off the bench with the Rockets.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400489574


To be honest, I thought it would be a loss, too, since the Cavs just changed coaches. Teams that change coaches usually play better for a honeymoon period (players jolted out of their rut, playing with more energy and wanting to audition for more minutes/role under the new coaching system, pulling together against adversity and media scrutiny, putting in more effort to validate the coaching change and that the problem isn't themselves, etc.). The "new coach" effect temporarily lifts up the team, regardless of whether the new coach is better or worse than his predecessor.

The Hornets winning against a fully healthy Cavs firing on all cylinders was very unexpected.
User avatar
ChokeFasncists
RealGM
Posts: 14,978
And1: 1,501
Joined: Jan 19, 2014
 

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#88 » by ChokeFasncists » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:37 pm

fatlever wrote:Not to take away anything from Lin's amazing game, but just thought we should put it in perspective.

Kemba Walker has had 13 games in his Hornets career with 24+ points and 8+ assists in the same game. 5 of those 13 he did on less FGA than Lin had last night. In all 13 he had less than 5 turnovers. 8 of the 13 resulted in wins.

Lin was fantastic last night. Kemba is also fantastic at times. Lets enjoy the fact that this team has two really good point guards.

Mo Williams even had two such fantastic games last year in his limited time as starting pg.

http://bkref.com/tiny/8VJos

Stat-wise, yes. But the thing is, the team plays better when the starters are involved and they know that the point guard is always thinking about how to get them good looks. It's no coincidence that this team almost always plays worse than their opponents during the first 8(?) minutes of the halves when facing good teams and last night was an exception.

Also, one needs to keep in mind that Lin doesn't have much familiarity playing with the first unit. It's only gonna improve with more time together. Chemistry takes time to develop, especially between passers and scorers.

IMO Kemba would totally flourish when he can do whatever he wants with the 2nd unit and to opposing 2nd units offensively and won't be a problem undersized defensively.
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#89 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 9:55 pm

I don't know how in tune At The Hive is with the franchise. And I'm not sure I agree with everything they say here, but they put up a piece saying that the Hornets should not bring Lin back in the off-season, and that it's better for both parties if they part ways. They say that Lin is overqualified to be a backup PG, and that he's not worth the long term investment because of limited upside compatibility and chemistry next to Kemba.

At The Hive wrote:Is there any team in the league which is getting as much bang for the buck as the Hornets are from Jeremy Lin on a 2-million dollar contract? That signing alone has created possibly the best point guard duo Charlotte has had since the inception of the Hornets back in 1988.

Obviously, Lin is over-qualified to be a definite back-up point guard, one who gets burn only when the starter sit. That's why only 32.2% of his playing time has come in his primary point guard position, per Seth Partnow's estimates over at Nylon Calculus.

If his stay in Charlotte will stretch past this season, the shooting guard position is where he would continue getting at least half of his minutes whether he's the so-called "starting shooting guard" or not.

And that's exactly where that production hits a ceiling. The Kemba/Lin duo works just fine, however, it has a certain best case scenario which probably can't be improved upon. Both are quite simply players who operate best when they have the ball in their hands.

Lin's game is centered around constant driving to the basket. Only five players in the league average more than seven drives per game in less playing time than Jeremy, per SportVU.

He enjoys having the ball-handling reigns, taking his time and probing the defense after getting in the lane off the dribble. Lin will rarely prematurely pick up his dribble. If he enters the paint and there isn't a situation he likes - no biggie. Jeremy will keep his dribble alive while exiting the paint to furthermore keep the pressure on the defense and find the necessary target.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffKE2HwgaCs[/youtube]

The guard has a good understanding of how the players involved in the play move around. Lin's a master at putting just enough pressure on the big man to commit to him (something which in itself is done in the aforementioned situation of keeping the dribble alive). He'll make a couple of extra steps away from his own rim runner or jump for a shot attempt to make the defending big gravitate towards him before dishing off a pin-point pass.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8wMkYfvOto[/youtube]

Those opportunities aren't there as much when playing the shooting guard position alongside a guard like Kemba Walker who also likes to explore his possibilities in the pick-n-roll by dribbling. Although there was a bigger gap in these numbers at the start of the season, Lin has averaged 19.3 points and 5.8 assists per game as a point guard but only 15.2 and 3.2 as the shooting guard, per Nylon Calculus.

And that's fine. The task isn't to find the best situation for Jeremy Lin but the best situation for the whole team. With the roster and injuries Charlotte has had, this is the situation. Moreover, the bump in those stats might be him and Jeremy Lamb beating up second units where Lin gets to play minutes in his favorite position.

But the front office should just probably look for a real shooting guard to play the position, a guard who has the appropriate size and who is more comfortable in off-the-ball situations, whether it's spacing the court as a shooter, looking for cuts or shooting off screens.

Kemba is improved as a shooter altogether and Lin might be having just a random down year (currently shooting 32.2% on catch-and-shoot threes), however, you could wish for better three-point threats in the back-court when slotting them next to MKG.

On defense Kidd-Gilchrist could hypothetically always pick up the more dangerous of the two wing players but playing Lin at shooting guard seems like an unnecessary risk. Overall, he's a competent defender, even one position up, but from time to time there will be a Khris Middleton type player who beats him with their size.

Lastly, this more so is about Kemba and him than the fit Lin would have with Kidd-Gilchrist. It will be interesting to see how the back-court of those three operates as it could finally be a unit where coach Clifford doesn't have to specifically go all-out on offense or defense to close out games. And that's something that should be utilized in the following months.

But, all in all, Lin and Walker just don't have the makings of a great back-court as far as on-court chemistry is concerned. Due to their ball-pounding style of play you don't see one of them having a Kyle Lowry-like ability to be the primary point guard, yet in the same time become the perfect spot-up guy whenever DeMar DeRozan goes to work.

On certain plays you'll get the sense that the man off the ball is not in his skin as a catch-and-shoot option. Here's Kemba taking a possession off with his hands on the knees as Lin runs a pick-n-roll:

Image

There's also not much of the desired harmony where one of them plays pick-n-roll, thus forces the defense slide over, switches the side of the court with a kick-out pass and has the other attack the open seams in defense.

That's why it probably would be better for all parties involved if they moved on after this season. Lin is bound to decline his player option and look for a new, better contract. Meanwhile, paying as much as other teams could be willing to probably wouldn't be the best investment for Charlotte who already has a point guard in Kemba Walker.



http://www.atthehive.com/2016/1/29/10825822/searching-for-michael-kidd-gilchrists-partner-on-the-wing
User avatar
ChokeFasncists
RealGM
Posts: 14,978
And1: 1,501
Joined: Jan 19, 2014
 

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#90 » by ChokeFasncists » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:01 pm

^
~lol~ That's Lamar, you could ask him here!
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#91 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:03 pm

ChokeFasncists wrote:^
~lol~ That's Lamar, you could ask him here!


Oh, I didn't realize that. :lol:
bws94
Head Coach
Posts: 6,993
And1: 1,222
Joined: Jan 08, 2014

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#92 » by bws94 » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:07 pm

atthehive has many contributors and points of view.
jtsmith
Junior
Posts: 483
And1: 87
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#93 » by jtsmith » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:10 pm

I agree with the article... although Lin has been a good asset and given BRob decent play as of late, I have a funny feeling Lin might be traded by the deadline.
User avatar
2k15
Pro Prospect
Posts: 935
And1: 193
Joined: Dec 21, 2015
Location: NYC
   

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#94 » by 2k15 » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:25 pm

can we stop talking about next year? we got a good thing this year. let's just try to focus on that. lin has player option next year - he's in the driver's seat. dont worry for him. i just can't wait for friday.
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#95 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:32 pm

jtsmith wrote:I agree with the article... although Lin has been a good asset and given BRob decent play as of late, I have a funny feeling Lin might be traded by the deadline.


No way. JLin is an integral part of the the current roster. The team and Lin both want to make the playoffs. Making the playoffs makes the Hornets a more attractive destination for free agents in the summer. And it gives Lin more games in front of a bigger audience to make an impression ahead of his free agency. And frankly, after both missed the playoffs last year, both the franchise and Lin want to be in the playoffs this year.

Trading Lin is out of the question, just like trading Kemba is probably out of the question. They won't get equal value back. No one will give up anything for a half year rental of Lin that would make up for the loss of him to the team.
Vae Victus
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,024
And1: 1,847
Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#96 » by Vae Victus » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:34 pm

Trading Lin severely damages CHA chance at the playoffs. If the team had continued slumping and were like 7+ games behind the 8th seed then it'd be wise to trade Lin and anyone else for whatever value they can get. Trading Lin and then relying on Roberts to backup PG and the health of the walking wounded brigade to continue a decent playoff push is folly.

Keep Lin, milk him for whatever he's worth in advertising revenue and hope they can swing a S&T deal with him somewhere to extract some assets.

Similarly to what LAL tried to do with him last year.
spaceballer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 2,707
Joined: Mar 05, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#97 » by spaceballer » Thu Feb 4, 2016 10:59 pm

Hornets VP Pete Guelli

Pete Guelli ‏@PeteGuelli

Yes. This is happening. @JLin7 and his early season look. More info to come. #BuzzCity
Image

https://twitter.com/PeteGuelli/status/695378857658966016
User avatar
milesfides
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,012
And1: 1,449
Joined: Nov 09, 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#98 » by milesfides » Thu Feb 4, 2016 11:07 pm

You can't bench Kemba Walker. He's being paid 12m a year. You either trade him or start him. He's not going to accept it. He's not Ginobili.

Speaking of which, if the goal is to really build a great team, you have to have the right combination of talent and clear roles. Where the league is going, players have to be able to shoot. Even your power forward. 1-4, you need players who can shoot, or you won't field a contending team.

I like the multidimensional Lin, Batum, and even Frank, who can shoot and pass. I think Frank will be really good next year. Marvin, Hawes, Zeller have proven to be solid, reliable role players.

Kemba and MKG are attractive individual players, physically talented with at least one or two excellent skills, but their mentality or deficiencies might ultimately stunt the team. I think there is a reasonable probability that Kemba projects to become a Monta Ellis (really a gunner in a point guard body), MKG a Gerald Wallace (can't shoot, injury-prone due to style of play).. none of those guys are building blocks for a championship. If you're trying too hard to try to figure out who can fit next to Kemba and MKG, maybe you've got the problem backwards.

I'd leverage the flashy talent and big names into getting that alpha who raises the level of his teammates. I think you could get something pretty good for Kemba and MKG.

Heck, I'd even trade them for top picks in the draft, and farm talent with an unselfish team in the meantime. Create assets, build the right culture, maintain flexibility until you've got the right stuff.

Basketball is a humbling game. You can be a great individual talent like Carmelo Anthony, yet constantly stunt a team's growth because people don't want to play with you or because they can't play with you.
“OH! Caruso parachutes in! You cannot stop him - you can only hope to contain him!” -Kevin Harlan, LAL-GSW 4/4/19
KungFuJoe
Pro Prospect
Posts: 936
And1: 312
Joined: Mar 25, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#99 » by KungFuJoe » Thu Feb 4, 2016 11:48 pm

I'm gonna say this right now...there is only ONE thing keeping Lin from being a definite starter in this league, and crazy as it may sound...a potential top 15 pg in the league.

His subpar handles.

I just don't know if he can get better. He doesn't seem to have gotten any better in the last few years. I sometimes think you can't really teach handles once you get past a certain age...that it's something that had to have been instilled as a youth.

But if I was Lin, I'd be working on my handles 24/7.
KungFuJoe
Pro Prospect
Posts: 936
And1: 312
Joined: Mar 25, 2012

Re: Jeremy Lin Thread 3 

Post#100 » by KungFuJoe » Thu Feb 4, 2016 11:52 pm

You can't bench Kemba. Lin is my favorite player but there's no coach in the NBA who would play Lin over him. Reason? See what I said above about his subpar handles.

He probably gave Coach Cliff a mini heart attack when he coughed up the ball twice in a row in the 4th quarter of last night's game. And I know those TOs were from passes, but they came because he doesn't trust his handle enough to keep it going in traffic...ends up picking the ball up and having to make a rash decision.

Return to Charlotte Hornets